Happy birthday, dear.

I can put out roughly 20k damage in 6 seconds as Rage, but then I drop for another 9 or so seconds. That's burst. As Vengeance, my damage is far more steady. I don't know why you think Vengeance has burst. It has moderately large hits that leave dot damage. There is no burst there. It has good, steady damage. Not burst. I was in the same situation as you for a while, but then I got more used to the rage playstyle. It takes some time. Currently, I respec Rage for PvP and run my raids as Vengeance; personally I think that was what was intended.

Rage is burst, Vengeance is steady damage. Burst is better in PvP.

Don't tell anyone. Let them keep thinking marauders are gimped.

To be fair, most of my damage in that game was spent on healers. I only got some good splash damage when people grouped up on them. In terms of group makeup, I had two guild member mercenaries that rolled with me that game. I didn't exactly worry about AoE when there was Death From Above everywhere. I'm just running with a cookie-cutter rage build. While you certainly put out plenty of damage, it looks like it was mostly AoE. Had you been using your burst opportunely, you could've taken out those healers. You say a lot for someone without an intelligent point to make. "It's all smash" - How do you know? Honestly, it's quite likely, but there's no need to come into a thread like you're the expert. Vengeance is steady damage; Rage is all burst and mobility. Not really a surprise that Vengeance is going to have difficulty in PvP. It's great for constant pressure, but with current gear levels where they are your dot damage is not going to be enough to take out-damage healing.

but i don wanna

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/6765/screenshot2012012417413.jpg It gets better. Really. And the UI Lag fix makes it even better. I was honestly surprised at how much a difference it makes.

Level 40 PvP gear.

If anything, Marauder is a Feral Druid/Fury Warrior hybrid, and a Juggernaut is an Arms Warrior/Death Knight hybrid.

Make more art, you bum. I miss your face. And your butt. Whoops, did I say that out loud?

Very, very well done. If anything, one of the best pieces of 3D modelling to grace these boards so far. My only complaint is that your image seems to be a little bit pixellated in places; I request a higher quality file for my viewing pleasure!

I enjoyed your piece terribly when it turned up in my inbox for the Tor deviantArt group. One of the quicker "Hell yes, this is going in the group gallery" clicks that I've given in a while.

You realize that they existed long before paint adventures, right?

Since there is no combat log as of yet, we've been doing comparisons on the same mobs. And by we, I mean myself as a juggernaut and another marauder friend; both with the exact same gear--full champion. We decided on that due to the ease of gathering the exact same set over Columi gear, as neither of us had full sets at that point. Results? He always kills his mob faster, and we both maintain perfect rotations. We ran trials on various levels and types of mobs (Elites, champions, etc), soloing with a healer guild member as to kill a mob with enough health that it wouldn't resolve down to just burst. We tested AoE situations as well as single target. We tested with buffs, without buffs, with cooldowns, without, etc. From what we saw, the AoE potential of Marauders and Juggernauts is essentially equal. If anything, a Juggernaut has more if specced rage. Marauders, however, won in terms of single target damage, edging out juggernauts by roughly a 7-10% time differential. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that Juggernauts aren't viable. They are. It's just that marauders, being a pure DPS class, has that extra utility and damage that most raid leaders would rather bring to your raid. As much as the convenience of having a potential tank around is, it's not really enough to warrant taking a Juggernaut over a Marauder in competitive situations. If you're just running casually, sure. Take the Juggernaut. He'll do just fine if he knows what he's doing. Otherwise, take the Marauder. In terms of debuff stacking, I have not found any evidence to support either side of it, with the exception that debuffs from the same class do not appear to make any difference; I do not think that they stack. In my own experience, I have not noticed a difference in my damage if there's a merc in the group to stack his debuff. I do pay pretty close attention, but it can't exactly be taken as hard evidence.

As a Juggernaut, Crit & Surge are far less valued than Power when you gear. I would NOT be worrying about Surge.

I was raiding as a DPS Juggernaut. I cleared all normal modes, and the only thing we haven't killed so far is hard mode Soa (as we're a pretty casual group of friends with a relaxed schedule). However, the guild is now in need of a Marauder, so I'm powerlevelling one of those now. I tried both specs in PvE and PvP situations. Personally, I found Vengeance to have the easiest, most traditional rotation (1-2-3-1-4-1-5-1). It has very steady, constant damage. Ideally, the spec of choice in PvE DPS situations. Rage has great burst and fantastic AoE, but it unfortunately is very situational and has a slight ramp up time. It's rotation is also slightly more cumbersome, as you find yourself spamming your SA/Assault for Vicious Slash when everything else is on cooldown. It does, however, have the armor pen that Vengeance lacks. This spec is generally better on heavy movement fights (Obliterate & the speed boost) or fights with lots of adds (5k+ Smash Crits). However, I like to think in terms of raid utility, so let's go over the two Advanced Classes from a DPS perspective: Sith Warrior Utility (both classes have these): -Intimidating Roar (AoE Fear, 6 secs. Breaks on Damage) [Droids Immune] -Force Choke (Channeled 3 second stun) -Force Crush [Rage Spec only] (Short variable slow, very situational. Good for peels.). DPS Juggernaut Utility: -Sunder Armor (4% Raid-Wide Armor Pen, Stacks 5 times [20%]) -Intercede (Target takes 20% less damage for 6 seconds and has 50% reduced threat, 20s cooldown) -Chilling Scream (AoE Slow, spammable.) These next two "utilities" are essentially useless, as they should never be needed. However, in a pinch, they do help. -The ability to tank when cooldowns are up if necessary. -Single Target & AoE Taunts (Only should be used when the tank is too busy to taunt and someone squishier than you is getting beat on, best immediately followed by Saber Ward to save healer resources) Marauder Utility: -Bloodthirst (+15% Damage & Healing for 15 seconds. Arguably the most important raid utility. Used on every single boss fight.) -Predation (+50 Move Speed, +10% Ranged Defenses, lasts 10 seconds. Very useful in movement phases) -Disable Droid (Long-term Droid CC) -Deadly Throw (-20% Target Healing Received Debuff) -Crippling Slash (Single-target slow. 50% for 12 seconds.) -Obfuscate (-90% target accuracy for 6 seconds. Handy in PvP to save your healer.) -Undying Rage (-99% damage taken for 6 seconds. Good if an add does a lot of damage and dies fast. Can save healer resources. Ideally never used.) In terms of Juggernaut DPS, the builds are fairly equal in output, so it's more of a playstyle choice at the moment. However, everything I've seen suggests that Marauders do more damage than Juggernauts. They also bring far more utility to a group than a Juggernaut does. No raid group will run without a Marauder. They will, however, run without a Juggernaut DPS. If you want to DPS in a raid, I would honestly say that you should roll Marauder. At this point in time, you would be playing a spec that does less damage and brings less raid utility, and would just be hurting your raid. Juggernauts are fantastic tanks and great in PvP in both offensive and defensive roles, but Marauders are just better in terms of PvE DPS.

Juggernauts (Rage & Vengeance spec) do roughly 10% less damage than an equally geared and skilled Marauder.

Vicious kick has the potential to be balanced, but burst damage on stunned targets is a formula for unhappy players.

If everyone is complaining about other roles, the game is balanced (Rock, Paper, Scissors & all that). If everyone is complaining about a specific spec, class, or role, the game is not balanced (See: Scrapper Scoundrels & Concealment Operatives). Honestly, I'm a level 50 Juggernaut with 622 Expertise. I'm a good player. I have no trouble with any class in particular. Sure, if I'm up against an equally skilled player that's playing a Sage or a Sorcerer, I'm going to have some trouble. Melee I tear apart. I have sufficient damage as rage spec to hold my own. Balanced.

It's because Pommel Strike and Vicious Kick are only usable on strong and normal mobs, not elites. Players are considered elites.

Oh, I know.

Keep in mind, a lot of this is due to biochem. Regadless, this is a player doing well because of skill and not because of his class.

I just hit battlemaster and I've only gotten four champion bags with gear in them. Centurion gear, hoooo. I counted. 178 bags. Do the math.

Dear god, the days of tab targeting in melee to interrupt that heal and failing are over. Hallelujah.

Seriously. It's time to man up and admit that your system for Resolve is inherently flawed, and doesn't work. Just remove it and add diminishing returns. Hell, you can just copy-paste it directly from WoW's code. With a game that has this much crowd control in it, it's a necessary feature. Players at 50 spend most of their time in combat CC'd or snared. This is not fun.