Well, all we can do is post reasons, but you'll never be convinced if you don't read the reasons posted. As was explained before, MOST MMOs offer alternative methods of leveling your character. I know in a game like WoW or Rifts the "gather some chestnuts" early level quest seems a lot like the "gather some pumpkins" early level alternative quest available in another zone but it is still a different quest in a different zone. In WoW particularly you can level entirely on dungeon content or level competitive PvP content. In SWTOR, if you want to level the other advanced class, you need to do the exact same quests. In this way, SWTOR is a weaker play experience and has less replay value than WoW or Rifts. And while adding alternate content to use when leveling an alt is part of a solution to that, Bioware has set a very high bar for the content they produce. For them to double the number of class specific quests in game, without compromising the technical standards they've set, will require a lot of work. Then you have to take into account that all of the side missions are still going to be the same, so it's still going to be largely the same experience that you've had with only a few missions different. So, if they invest in voice actors, animations, and writing for 8 entirely new mission scripts, they can make a modest improvement to this games replayability. I'm not convinced that it's worth the time and effort because, if it hasn't happened already, the majority of players will soon be at level cap and they will be asking for more play options at end game. Particularly because this game has such limited replay value. At this point the bulk of developer time and effort will be split between stamping out the last of those new game bugs, developing end game content, and delicately balancing the advanced classes.

Actually no, saying that you're wasting my time is not calling you a name. Calling you a name would be, hypothetically, saying that you were a shaggy nerfherder. Telling you that you're wasting my time is simply telling you that you are wasting my time. Having cleared that up, your opinion is that there needs to be some sort of continuing work for reward investment to maintain subscriber interest. Whether that be in the form of heroic grinding for the best gear, level grinding to get the awesome new power, profession grinding to get the nicest craftables, or even grinding low level dungeons to get that cosmetic orange set you want. You believe, for reasons you have not shared, that allowing advance class switching would 'cheapen' the leveling experience. Now, I know what your opinion is, and to the extent that it is your opinion, I accept it. What I can't do is share it, for one simple reason. I don't agree with it and you've not done a good job of convincing me that your opinion is the 'truth.' I don't believe I did that. In fact, at no point did I say you looked foolish to everybody so the implication is clearly that you were making yourself look foolish to me. However, of the people to comment on our little exchange, you've had mixed reactions, one person claiming that you came off civilly, and the other saying that you did a poor job of explaining your position. Well for one, they have not stated that they will not in the future. They have stated that they have no plans to allow advanced class switching. Don't over sell your case. As for why they don't allow it now, I would hazard a couple of different explanations. First and foremost, SWTOR has lifted the talent structure from BC WoW. No reason not to, it's a winning formula that's been time tested and, in WoW, finds a nice middle ground between allowing players flexibility with their characters and encouraging them to roll alternates. Lifting a format they already know works saves quite a bit of development time. Secondly, allowing advanced class swapping in the early months of the game could make it difficult to track down early balance problems. Under powered advanced classes will be even more under represented than they are now and that could make it difficult to gather raw data over a wide range of player skills and specs. Thirdly, they probably believe this will encourage a player to roll on the opposite faction when he wants to test out the 'other advanced class.' I know I'm seriously thinking about rolling a powertech BH just to see how Vanguards play without subjecting myself to a repeat of that same storyline. But I'm just guessing and if I thought any of these reasons were particularly compelling, I'd probably have a different opinion than I do now.

Interesting idea, my only question is this, when did vanguards forget they have a forum to post this stuff in?

:facepalm: Okay, going over this again. Sages and scoundrels do not share a story line. Sages and scoundrels do not share gear. Sages and scoundrels do not share companions. Sages and scoundrels do not share 60-something percent of their abilities. For these reasons it is not "the same thing" when you let a sage class change into a scoundrel. Nothing else that you said was new, interesting, or correct enough to be worth a response. From being outright wrong when you claimed that SWTOR allowed more class versatility than any other game, aside from Rifts, which was extra hilarious because the post you replied to had three such examples in WoW alone. To being totally irrelevant when you went on your mini-rant about what I'm 'entitled to." This is a discussion about whether advance class switching would be good, or bad, for this game. Unless your post makes an argument for whether allowing advanced class switching would be good, or bad, for this game, your post adds nothing to this discussion.

And with a relatively simple change in game code, they can give EVEN BIGGER variances within each class by allowing advanced class swapping. And they designed scoundrels to be a stealth class, whether they are fulfilling the melee dps role or healing role... wait, that doesn't work. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to either. An great idea! I'd love to see something like that occur, but since it's alot more work to implement, and implement well, than simple advanced class switching, I'll keep my dreams modest. Yes, others will disagree. Others will disagree on how they define class, others will disagree with the choices Bioware has made in assigning different classes roles, others will agree with you totally. But here is the lynchpin, here is the most important part. If you don't say WHY you agree, then you've not really done anything to advance the discussion. And to others it is a big deal for various reasons outlined in this board. Tell us why you think the game is better when players are limited to three specs on an advanced class and you'll have done more to advance the discussion than all the heart felt testimonials in the world. No, not ideal. As has been mentioned, this game lacks an advanced class with the versatility of the WoW Druid, Paladin or Shaman. There is a demand for that and your proposal does nothing to address that demand. This game has a painfully linear story line that makes leveling a second time a burden. Your proposal does nothing to lighten that burden. Classes in this game grow into their rotations and abilities, at level 1, level 10, level 20, you can only have a theoretical idea of how your class plays at level 50 even if you start at level 1 in an advanced class, if you fall out of love with your class when theory turns into reality you may have just wasted all that time leveling. Your proposal offers precious few solutions to this dilemma. Game mechanic changes happen all the time, just recently some changes to shadow/assassins were developed that just about killed the end game viability of three different hybrid specs. Your proposal leaves those former hybrid players with half as many choices when they seek a new method of play. Advanced class switching fixes these problems, or addresses them better, by empowering the player to choose how they play. Now, is it possible that there is some massive loss of gameplay value from allowing advanced class switching? I suppose, but reading through this thread hasn't turned up any credible reason to believe it.

That's not a good thing, that's terrible. I've been looking for an offhand who's item budget wasn't wasted on force power and it's not out there, lame.

Without damage meters we have no real way of checking the validity of the thesis here. However, IF some classes do less damage, overall, than some other classes and the calculations that they use to determine that are the difference between force/tech power and, just regular old power, then a fix here seems to be in order. As a balance shadow, I do not enjoy trying to find power gear amongst all the force power gear that pops up.

Playstyles are drastically different between combat medics and assault commandos. By this reasoning that would make them separate classes... but ofcourse this isn't your full reasoning. Taking you at your word, and you've given me no reason to do otherwise, I imagine your position is really something more along the lines of, "If DPS playstyles are too different they should be different classes, but an exception to that must be made for specializations that heal or tank." And it's a perfectly valid position, but you do nothing to explore the pro's and con's of it by simply saying, "Consider advanced classes to be your class." For me, I honestly don't care if people consider them classes or advanced classes. To borrow the WoW example, I would support allowing players to change from rogues to hunters or warlocks to mages IF Blizzard forced an identical linear progression on rogues and hunters or on warlocks and mages. Blizzard doesn't so allowing that kind of class changing doesn't make sense, Bioware does force that linear progression, so in this case, it makes sense.

This is a good compromise, if you know you're going to want the orange pretty well in advance. If you don't know you want it before you see it, then yeah, it's not cool to rob someone of an upgrade for your own cosmetic needs. This is also a good compromise, if you're willing to invest the effort/credits into making it right, and assuming the person you beat in the roll already has an orange piece.

As an assault commando, I support buffing HIB wholeheartedly. Yes, make my HIB procs an unavoidable bolt of instant death please!

Point of order here, I never once called you names. I just told you that your attempts at psychology were a stupid waste of time that made you look foolish every time you uttered them.

I see you went with the TL;DR version because he actually addressed that exact same point. And even predicted that it would get brought up. His position is that, mechanically, Advanced Class switching holds a nebulous position somewhere between full class changing, and simply respeccing. It's a fair position to consider given the number of shared abilities between each of the advanced classes. And that's even before you take into account story line, companions, core stats on gear, and all the other things that advanced classes share.

We disagree, we would like Bioware to start making plans for switching advanced classes, we will continue posting our feedback and advise for how we'd like to see this game grow in the future. But thank you for your contribution to the discussion, we can always use more people to quote stuff that isn't really in dispute.

So looking forward to reading the rest of this. But before I begin I should warn you, I'm likely to disregard everything you say unless you provide some proof of significant insight into the minds of the game developers OR an intelligent analysis of this ONE factor that you are discussing as it compares to the other factors that make up a good game. And you jumped the shark after the first paragraph. YOU may be making an argument about connection and attachment to a character, but HE clearly was making an argument about time invested vs. reward. As evidenced by him using those very words. Fair enough, advanced class switching does come with a steep learning curve. I'd argue it's no more steep than the learning curve from changing roles. If I respecced my commando as a combat medic tomorrow, which I can do, the talents I select will so dramatically alter the abilities that I've leveled with as to make them near unrecognizable, and then there are the talented abilities that I didn't level with. On the other hand, if I could advance class switch him from assault commando to assault power tech, I'd receive a similar degree of character change. In either scenario, I'm going to be reading through each of the talents I choose carefully, checking online guides, and practicing with my character. If others struggle much harder to reach this degree of mastery, then they still have the option of rerolling their character from scratch and learning their abilities gradually. There are two problems with this argument. The first being that identity doesn't always grow in the way you described. My consular had an identity from level 1. Thankfully, I was anal enough to review all of my options even before rolling the character and so I realized that his identity is best expressed by the balance shadow spec. Had I not been so diligent in advanced and based my decision solely on the brief description given in game, he'd be a sage. Secondly, not everyone plays this game with your own unique psychology, some people don't attach an identity to their character, he's just a character in a game, and others attach an identity to their characters that could be equally expressed by either advanced class. I will agree, if we allowed some players to radically alter their character's ability set, they may find things that define their character identity to be lost. Those players should learn who they are, and not advanced class change. Or, an even better idea, those players can advanced class change, face the loss of identity that they have called upon themselves, and then advanced class change back with a better understanding of their character. What can I say, I disagree and use an entirely different set of values for determining my character. This psychology you are forwarding is not universal. I'm glad you discovered a niche that attaches you to your guardian and you either already take pride in the guardians strengths while not caring about the guardians weaknesses, or grew to appreciate the guardians strengths and overlook its weaknesses. You should definitely not advanced class change to a sentinel. Why do you think this should effect what I do? You've made many claims here about the motives of Bioware developers. I'm reasonably informed regarding the news that leads up to this and I do not once recall reading that they felt advanced class switching would prevent characters from attaching themselves or identifying with their character. Perhaps you can provide a link? Actually, no wait, don't. Because you haven't even established that the negative effects of advanced class switching that you've asserted are a legitimate concern. And I personally disagree with it, now we are discussing why we personally agree or disagree. Good to know that we're all on the same page finally. It clarified your psychological issues, but not mine and not Kalti, the person who originally tried to make a psychological argument. and not the majority of other players.

I'm sorry, you think you should be able to out dps a melee dps class at melee range? I mean, I understand needing to root yourself changes the usual ranged dps strategy of slow, stun your enemy and run like hell but.. still no. You can open up on the poor sentinel at 35 yards, if you're rooted he can't use his usual gap closer. If he manages to close the gap anyway, he should be able to catch up to your dps and surpass you.

Four paragraphs, one argument made for or against allowing advanced class switches. Well, you're doing better so I'll likely have fewer reasons to insult you this time around. I can think of at least three things that aren't in game now that they've already said they want to be... so "obviously" isn't a word that can honestly be applied in this case. Further, I can think of at least one source stating that, at some time late in game development, they wanted advance class switching to be in game, so what's an "obvious" choice for you, clearly wasn't so obvious for them. And even if it was, and I am getting so tired of saying this, that is not an argument for or against advanced class switching. You are wasting my time and your own. Okay, fine, I've explained every way I can why your psychological analysis is not a point worth arguing and why your attempts to project your own interpretation onto the thoughts and motives of others is laughable and yet you continue to bring it up instead of searching for an actual argument to make. You're making yourself look foolish every time you go down this line of reasoning, but you won't drop it and so here you stand. Fine, lets discuss it... Taking your "ideal" to its extreme, and using a logical fallacy that you've already tried against me, why not further subdivide the advanced classes into three distinct classes based on their talent specs? That would be most in line with the "high-level theory of time spent vs reward given." A phrase you don't explain, which is good, because you've used it incorrectly. Think of all the opportunity you'd have to 'invest time for reward if', to switch from a Watchmen Sentinel to a Combat Sentinel, you had to roll a new character! But no, that would be stupid for two reasons. The first being your entire theory does not support your point. Allowing advanced class switching increases the reward that you've received for leveling and encourages a player to invest more time in exploring and learning the new specs that are open to them. And secondly, because "work for reward" is just one aspect game designers need to balance and weave into the game experience, variety is another, fun is a third, accessibility is a fourth, there's tons more of course by you get the idea. The game developers have already sacrificed some of your precious 'work' to the altar of variety by allowing players three different specs and they've given up some of the 'work' in favor of accessibility by allowing players to pay for total talent respecs. Now, as an inherently honest person I will admit, I don't know the 'psychology' of the game developers well enough to say how each of them prioritizes the dozens of often contradictory components that make up an MMO. I was tempted to just point out that this was wildly off topic, but no, lets discuss it. Building a story for each AC doubles the amount of work it takes to develop class specific story lines and leveling content. We're talking about an overhaul of a major part of the game, and while it might have been awesome to see, it's not likely to happen at this stage. And that's even before you add other complications like, which AC gets the new quests and the population bump that comes with curious people checking them out? What about companions, do the AC's keep the same companion roster, it would probably be easier if they did, then you'd only have to bring those voice actors back to redo their dialogue up to recruitment, oh, and maybe some dialogue choices for those private conversations if they're plot line specific. Gonna be tricky doubling the number of class specific instance portals on a given planet, some of them are going to have to start pulling double duty. Hangars can probably start doing double duty as well. Oh, yes, and while Bioware is revamping all of this, they're spending time and effort that could be spent on introducing new classes. No, the path you have suggested is far harder than the path I have suggested. In fact, I'd bet money on you getting a degree in psychology before we see separate quest arks for the advanced classes. Edit, this didn't hit me until I was sitting over a bowl of cornflakes this morning, but I'm really bummed that I won't get to understand how advance class switching 'cheapens the experience.'

If you're asking if I would replace my Republic trooper with a Republic bounty hunter, then hell yeah. If you're asking if I'd faction switch to become some sith lords altar boy, no thanks.

Ah, no that doesn't explain it very well at all. The argument you made was advanced class switching would not help retention, your reasoning for that is that they will want to play their character if they spend more time on the keyboard creating it. This rationally does not follow because a character levelled to max and then advance class switched would have more time invested into it than any single alt made to explore another experience. Actually, Bioware has a job of selling copies of SW:TOR, subscriptions to it, and retaining as many of those subscriptions as possible. I am arguing for ways this change would help them do this job. If you honestly believe this would hurt the game, you should try to think of ways this change would hurt the game and make arguments for them. Cheapens the experience? Like you cheapen the noble field of Psychology with your rampant speculation? No, ofcourse I kid. Once more, this is a matter of personal values. Do I think my experience is cheapened if the reward at the end of leveling is a character with six viable specs and three viable roles? Not at all. In fact, I would think, having twice as many play style choices during leveling would enrich my experience. In fact, this leaves me curious. Exactly how would the leveling experience be "cheapened?" What do you even mean by that? If you'd provided some sort of reasoning for this claim, here or later in the post, you might have had a chance to sway me to your point of view. As things are, any way I'm able to look at this, you just seem wrong. Incorrect. And once more, until you're certified as a practitioner of telepathy, this is pure speculation on your part. Since it's speculation that fails to provide an argument for or against advanced class switching and does nothing but attempt to tie my position in with behavior I am not advocating, it's useless speculation. A game without levelling... like old school Doom or Super Mario Brothers? Sure. But that's a different discussion. Once more, we are discussing Advanced Class switching, that is limited flexibility in changing classes. With Advanced Class switching, at most, you could argue that players would only level 8 times. Once for each core class on each side. But your position is weaker than that because you've already outlined why you are wrong. Not many people like levelling and many people will only level once or twice, regardless of how limited their classes are. I'm saying that arguments from what other games do are a waste of time unless you can explain why what other games do works and how it applies here and when you declare that 'no other game does something' without expanding on it, you have just wasted your time and the time of anyone who has read your sentence. Hmm, yep, those are all staples. Now lets pick an MMO that we're both familiar with, WoW, and list the ways it's different. Leveling in SWTOR is painfully linear. Leveling in SWTOR has no dual spec changes. Leveling in SWTOR has no competitive low level battle grounds. Leveling in SWTOR has limited group content. Leveling in SWTOR requires learning pet mechanics if you wish to level optimally. Leveling in SWTOR is shorter by 35 levels. Why did I list all of those things? Absolutely no reason, because without an argument to make from these facts I have just wasted your time, in the exact same way that you have just wasted mine. But I'm not a time waster so I will make an argument from this, lets pick the top example, linear leveling. In WoW I could roll a mage, I could level that mage to 85 doing questing content. If I then decided I wanted a priest I could roll a priest, then I could level that priest to 85 doing entirely different quests and seeing entirely different content on entirely different maps. Then I could roll a paladin and I could level that paladin doing absolutely nothing but running 5 man dungeons, and I could get all the way up to 85. Then I can roll a rogue and get him to level 85 doing nothing but battle ground pvp content. You get the idea. Now, I have a high level commando. If I wanted to roll a vanguard I would have to level that vanguard doing the exact same content that my commando has already gone through. If I tried to level doing nothing but dungeon content, assuming I was masochistic enough to try that without a dungeon finder tool, I would never have more than one companion and I wouldn't have any map mobility. No, my vanguard would be required, if only to effectively craft, repeat what my commando has already done. So you see, in that one simple way this game is different from the standard MMO fare and so it's not unreasonable to expect a different response to this issue from Bioware. If you insist on trying to tell me what I would think and how I would respond to a situation, when you don't know me from adam, I'm going to have trouble taking you seriously. This is you doing nothing but speculating on my character, that you mislabel this rampant speculation as fact only makes it sadder. Perhaps, but if you have an intellectually honest bone in your body, and since you're attempting to sell me on your ability to make accurately psychological diagnosis of total strangers I'm starting to wonder, you'll admit that you don't know what the entirety of the player base feels on this subject. In three months from now when the bell curve puts the plurality of players at level cap, you're not going to know what the entirety of the player base feels on this subject then either. Neither do I, but here's something to consider, Bioware has put a really high level of development into their content. Voice actors, animations, story line, it's all top shelf and thus it will take longer to develop and expand upon. Blizzard puts out an expansion once every 2 years to their flagship MMO, they do so with a larger budget and lower production values than what SWTOR has set as their standard. At best, in a perfect world, Bioware will be able to match Blizzards release speed, in all likelihood they will take longer. Your answer to this may be that it's all the more important for them to keep advanced class changing as far away from the game as possible because alt leveling is such a significant draw to continue playing, but in my anecdotal experience alt-aholics are the exception, not the rule. In my anecdotal experience, players level a character or two, they become attached to those two characters, and they stop having much interest in leveling further alts. Individual mileage may very, ofcourse, but as a rule the second time you level a character in a game it is less fun than the first time and the third time is less fun still. Everyone reaches their saturation point for leveling and at that stage alts become an unsustainable way to retain subscriptions. No, far better to give players new and exciting reasons to play the characters they've already leveled and become attached to, and advanced class changing is just one way to do that. Well, since you've provided no proof of special insight into the psychology of the designers or players, you've provided no line of reasoning by which you reach this conclusion, and you've provided no proof of your own expertise in the field of psychology. Quite the opposite, as your misuse of the word fact, speculation, and your brazen attempt to reach blanket conclusions and file it under 'psychology' has me pretty much convinced that your knowledge of psychology doesn't reach any further than watching a few episodes of Frasier, I'm just going to respond that I disagree. Well then I'll explain. As you can see from the sentence preceding my mention of leveling alts, and the second half of that sentence, that paragraph concerned subscription retention. That's a recurring theme with me because, for better or worse, subscription retention is what will drive the decisions they make about this game. Now, when it's all said and done the only way to retain subscriptions is to provide players something to do. Leveling alts is one thing to do, allowing new and interesting play experiences for the main character that players are most invested in is another thing to do. Now, you've failed to make any cogent argument against the switching of advanced classes, and I'm not so arrogant as to think that there isn't a cogent argument. Perhaps you just don't know what I'm looking for, or what would sway a rational person with no predisposition towards believing unsupported claims into supporting your point of view. My suggestion to you would be this, take ONE aspect of this that you dislike. Whether it be your confusing belief that it would "cheapen the experience" your unexplored belief that it would fail to help retention, or your belief that this game should model its decisions off of the industry standard and just really explore that idea. List the pros and cons, provide reasons for everything you say, and just dig deep into that one topic. Do I even need to go into detail about how pointless this is? Well, I'll just say it briefly. Nobody has any reason to care about your opinion regarding what other people think. The conclusions that you reach are, and will always be, less useful and informative than simply asking them why they want something. Now, we have at least two topics on the board that cover this issue, going through I can see that you're wrong. There are at least three good reasons to want to advanced class switch that can't be alleviated by doing extensive research. First off, there are scoundrels and operatives out there who's class suddenly no longer plays in the way they expected. All the research in the world didn't help them when what they knew became wrong. Secondly, there are vanguards out there who've noticed a lack of healers in pvp and want to fill the gap. Unless you meant to include knowing the end game population make-up before it happens as part of your research. Thirdly, there are people who really liked their class at first back when it was what they wanted, but now they've had a change of heart. They knew the choice they were making, now they want to make a different choice. And ofcourse I disagree with your entire premise. Knowing everything about your class by the time you reach level 10, that's a tad unrealistic. Kudos, you have made a factual statement about the state of the game as it currently stands. But as this paragraph has forwarded no argument for, or against, the proposed change, it is honestly a waste of time. And you lose points for attempting to imply that those who disagree with you are lazy, I believe that's called 'projection' in psychological circles.

Droid-Commando, Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Agent Jawa-Bounty Hunter, Smuggler, Consular, Knight I'd love to see Gamoreans, Trandoshans, and Wookies in game at some point, but not until they've created a player class that can use Techblades/Tech Staves.

Around the same time they give Commando/Mercenaries an interrupt.

Is there some reason that you think the base class is necessary for them to share class stories? The system could be done just as simply by automatically sharing sage and shadow story lines. Or, they keep the same class structure but remove the 10 levels of leveling as someone class agnostic. During character selection you'd first pick "consular" and then immediately, you'd choose between "shadow" and "sage." Easy as pie, at level 1, you're a sage.

Unless doing so encourages players to continues beyond when they would normally cancel their subscription. And when doing so encourages other people to continue beyond their normal point of play saturation, but that's another argument all together. Because? I can't address your reasoning unless you provide it. My reasoning is pretty easy to understand, a player with twice as many options will take longer to grow bored and quit. A player who's already ground through end game will be less interested in that 50 hours of gameplay you think it's in Biowares interest to charge him for. Well, that becomes a bit of a judgment call doesn't it? Yes, allowing players to switch from Juggernaut to Gunslinger would enhance the player experience if they were not interested in pursuing the Gunslinger story line. And on the same note, removing leveling all together would also enhance the player experience if the player were not interested in any of the story lines. On the other side of the scale, leveling does provide its own impetus to retain subscriptions by giving players a goal to work towards and a story to enjoy. In this case, my enhanced player experience ends with advanced class switching. There is no alternate story to justify the 50+ hours of keyboard spam and, once again, allowing players uninterested in repeating the story to double the number of play options is a net gain and a reason to stick around between content patches. That didn't take long. The problem with anonymous strangers quoting psychology to other anonymous strangers on the internet is that it's largely meaningless. In this individual case you are wrong, as I have no greater sense of achievement in repeating the exact same story line. The only thing we know that they want is for players to buy the game and continue their subscription. Anything else is pointless speculation. Now, if you believe forcing alt leveling through the exact same story line will increase subscription retention, you've already had one opportunity to make that case. Feel free to take this as another opportunity. Yes, adding a new class with three roles would be a new discussion. But we're still discussing the benefits of allowing the existing classes three or more roles.

Ahh, I stand corrected.

Okay, lets take this point by point. Yes, I picked the comment where you actually responded to him AND showed how you missed the point to respond to. Anything beyond that is clearly a case of projection on your part. This would be incorrect as I do not share the view that core classes should be removed. "Later" being a sentence imbedded into his main argument by ellipses. So, you're wrong about it being later, it was 'during.' However, he did also say, actually later, "I don't get why we wait until level 10." As before, I've ignored every other point you've made because you're begging the question. I hope that, once more, helps you understand the point you're arguing against.

Black Sun district on Coruscant, I think.