Kenmuir
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Posts posted by Kenmuir
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Also, I noticed that full auto procs HIB when you use it so it determines it before it knows if your third hit will hit or not. Based on that, I'd say Plasma Cell does not receive multiple proc chances.
I hope that's not true, otherwise Assault falls even farther behind IMO. If it's each hit, just spamming Hammer Shot gets you a 41% chance per GCD, otherwise the slow on Plasma Cell just went from a decent kiting ability if you start at range, to a RNG roller coaster.
IMO that's the biggest problem with Assault, most of the damage/functionality comes from procs. Increased Crit damage, slow on Plasma Cell Damage, chance to reset HIB cooldown from FA/CB, and the cooldown reduction on Adrenaline Rush/Reactive shield. For a "pvp" talent tree it's super dependent on RNG and not in a good way since most of the RNG forces you to react, not your opponent. On the other hand, Gunnery is very consistent, you know the exact benefits of everything that you do, which IMO is much better for PvP.
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No number crunching of any kind can support this statement. Firstly it neglects that not all targets have the same amount of armor, so in certain situations the arpen you get with gunnery becomes arbitrary.
Wow. I said that AP does more damage on targets with less than 60% Kinetic Reduction and less on targets with more, and that somehow doesn't include that your targets can have different amounts of armor?
Making your general statement of it doing the same damage kind of one sided. Lastly it also excludes the fact that AP has greater returns on crit dmg, which means it scales better with gear.
How much better does it scale? 30% extra crit damage, or 35%(46%) armor pen? Which one do you think will scale better? The one that's dependent on RNG or the one that applies to everything you do?
A comparison of the two specs in this way is pretty ignorant of the nature of assault. You're looking at the two from a pure throughput perspective, well that isnt the point of assault.
What is the point of Assault then? If it's not damage what is it? Crowd Control? lol Mobility? You have the same types of spells, anything you can do with Assault you could create an equivalent to it with Gunnery.
Gunnery's max output revolves around staying on one target for extended periods of time, the spec does not lend it self to target switching and high movement.
The same could be said about Assault, unless you want to run around spamming Hammer Shot just to proc the slow, but then you'd be doing low amounts of damage. Or you think tab DOTing with incendiary is good dps.
The 30% dmg bonus you get from gunnery to HIB is built around a stacking buff, where as the 30% crit bonus you get from assault has no such conditions on it.
Other than having to get a critical hit on a 15second cooldown ability. Also, Grav round is the go to ability for Gunnery, just like Charged Bolts is for Assault.
If you're looking at pure throughput yeah sure you're probably right, but you miss the entire point of assault.
Again I will ask, what is the point of Assault? If you are going to say more mobility please try and show it with examples and something resembling theorycraft. Maybe a few numbers too.
And increased stealth detect along with energy returns with stuns / immobilize.
I would think most Lvl 50 Gunnery builds will have the energy return, and I would contest the usefulness of increased stealth detect.
But non of those get at the main point of why to go assault. The reason is versitility. For instance, a gunnery HIB depends on grav round in order to be utilized to its fullest potential.
Just like Assault HIB depends on Charged Bolts to be utilized to its fullest potential?
Not only for the increased damage, but also just from a pure usage standpoint. You cannot HIB without a grav round already in play. Same is true of assault, but in a different way. Incidiary round is an instant cast, which means if im forced to kite a target with no dot on them it wont be something i need to worry about.
If you can't get a 1.5s cast with a 15second debuff down, you lost the battle anyway. Assault might be better when you're hit by a stealth class, but even then the only advantage you would have is a slow on Hammer Shot, which even an Assassin could outdamage you at range. Gunnery also has a longer knockback to make leading with Grav round easier, instead of having to depend on an RNG effect with Assault.
It's a versitile spec that is forgiving when put in situations like these. Is assault lower in dps? Yes no one would argue about that, but gunnery's dps is weakened by situations revolving around target switching and movement.
Why do you keep saying this? How? Gunnery has to start it's rotation with a 1.5s cast, 2 ammo ability, while Assault has to start with an instacast, 3 ammo ability? One instacast ability at the start of a rotation on a ranged class is the difference between a turret and a headless chicken? How is Gunnery more hurt by target switching than Assault? With assault you need the burn effect for your spec to function, meaning you lead off with a 3 ammo ability or you pray for a Plasma Cell proc. Gunnery needs to lead off with a 1.5s cast 2 ammo ability(which becomes 1 cell on a crit!), in my experience so far, that's not very hard. Or you wait until you can get off a safe Grav Round while using your many other skills.
Not to a point that makes you weaksauce, but enough for the differences between the two isnt as vast. Fact of the matter is you cannot reach your max throughput unless you're targeting something you shouldnt be targeting or doing something you shouldn't be doing. IE not using stuns / targeting a tank / targeting a healer with guard etc..
I think most of you playing Assault would have a lot more fun playing Vanguard. It's really the class that you seem to think Assault spec is.
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Im sick of this.
AS Has higher burst. Higher sustained damage. Higher survivability.
No, no, and no. Please read the thread, none of what you just typed is true.
Assault Plastique does more damage then any skill Gunnery has.
AS HIB does more damage then any gunnery skill. ( Herp 60% critical with 240% crit damage ).
Again, everything you type is hyperbole. Assault does the same damage as sticky on a target with 60% Kinetic Reduction..
HIB deals more damage with Gunnery, the only way for them to be close is to chain cast Charged Bolts to max out the cooldown resets, AKA you are just as "immobile" as Gunnery.
The best burst Gunnery can do is Sticky -> Grav -> Demo.
The best burst AS can do is Assault Plastique ( more then sticky herp ) -> Charged bolts ( More then Grav HERP ) -> HIB ( More then Demo HERP DERP ).
You forgot the HIB that Gunnery can also cast in there and the Incendiary Round that AS has to get off before using Charged Bolts or HIB.
Charged Bolts dealing more damage than Grav Round? If somehow your .33 ratio weapon damage and 9% damage on burning targets can over come a .12 tech damage bonus, .41 base damage bonus, and a 35% armor pen. Then yes CB will out damage Grav Round, but in reality it will not.
Again, why are you comparing HIB to Demo Round? They are not the abilities you should be comparing. How many times are you going to get this wrong?
Demo is the Gunnery Equivalent of Incendiary Round in AS
HIB is the Gunnery equivalent of HIB in AS.
Dots will always provide better sustain.
No.
Ionic Acceleration does not have a Cooldown.
It has a 3second cooldown, it just doesn't need to be a stated cooldown. If you cast HIB, you can cast Charged Bolts, 1.5s, cast HIB, 1.5s, cast Charged Bolts, 1.5s, cast HIB. It ends up having a cooldown of 3 seconds.
Curtain of Fire does for you pve nerds out there. It also naturally has a higher chance to proc.
Curtain of Fire and Ionic Acceleration have the same chance to proc.
More movement = More Survivability.
Don't sit here and try to math me on this. It's pretty blatantly obvious.
More movement does not necessitate more survivability.
But you seem to be ignoring the fact that Gunnery also has better CC tools, lower cooldown on Tenacity and Conc Charge, knock back on stockstrike, longer knock back on Conc Charge, Slow on Full auto, 10% damage reduction on Grav Round.
Compared to AS's slow on Plasma cell procs, Reduced cooldown on Adrenaline rush(amount dependent on the number of Critical hits), reduced cooldown on Reactive Shield(amount dependent on the number of times you are hit), reactive shield removes CC.
Looks like Gunnery wins that category too.
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If you want to be a healer I would highly recommend you roll a Sage/Scoundrel. There was a post earlier that compared the three specs, and basically Combat Medic comes in last due to a very limiting resource pool(you basically have no burst out side a 2 minute cooldown), lack of HOTs(leading to you having trouble being a group healer, most of our abilities are great at keeping one target alive, not a whole group), and extremely boring play(mostly due to our lack of spells, you just spam Medical probe for 75% of your casts, compared to the other classes having rotations and more priority abilities).
I'll try to find the post, but basically Sage was the most complete healer, while Scoundrel seemed to be a kind of pvp healer, while the Medic was the least complete class.
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Well I guess that settles it then. AS commando's in PvP provide meaningless damage are only good for duels. Kiting is only good for dueling you see. LordKivlov said so therefore it is true. Seriously though, I am teasing you, but you got to admit you kind of deserve it by making such a silly statement without any tactical reasons, relatable scenarios’, or math to back it up. I am also curious as to your reference that the split up damage does not have individual chance to proc. I'm not saying your wrong about that. I'm saying that I have no way to definitively knowing right now and you haven't provided sources that shows you do. I'm not trying to start an e-peen battle with you. I'm just saying that you obviously have an opinion, but we're more interested in how you back your opinion up.
Go back and read the thread. You deal less damage with AS on all of your attacks, save for Assault Plastique over Sticky Grenade, even then it's almost a wash. Please read the entire post before commenting, I've already made many posts detailing this, if there's anything you think I did wrong or don't understand, I would be happy to expand upon it.
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No, Im saying I have seen one of the three hits from Hammer shot go as high as 975. I never said all my hits are 975. My hammershot average hits for 1k total damage. My regular crits are around 600-700 damage, and my regular hits do around 200-250. If I crit 40% of the time, I have a 79% chance to crit with one of the shots.
79% crit chance for 650 ( middle of average crits ), means on average one shot is going to do 513.5 damage. If you take the average of the regular shots ( 225 ), your doing 963.5 damage, on average with hammer shot. Now It's hard to get a baseline for this, as I am basically just using memory of the last few nights of WZ's. If you wanted, I could go to some lower level mobs with atleast 1k hp, shoot them and take screenshots before and after, then go to higher level mobs, and do the same.
As far as my gear/stats:
I have 1500~ aim. I have 40~ Power. All of my champion/Cent pieces have had there enhancements replaced with Advanced Battle Enhancement 22 ( and i am now using my duplicate champ tokens to grab 48 surge pieces and taking out mods ( ABE 22 has 39 surge ).
So while your math isn't incorrect in RAW damage, you have to factor in additional effective damage in the shape of Crit rate, Crit Damage, Expertise Damage Bonus, and Talent Effects.
You really haven't noticed that the 3 "shots" in Hammer Shot deal different damage? The first and last one deal like 15% of the total damage and the middle one deals 70% of the total damage, so the math you tried to do is completely wrong. Not to mention that you calculated the average damage wrong.
You even said in your stats you can't reach the require damage on a target with Zero damage reduction.
Comon, at least try to make a reasonable post. You also ignored everything else I posted just to target that one part. Like the part where you give evidence to support your claims, or try and do some number based theorycraft.
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No need for DPS meters at all. Spec your character the way you want to and enjoy the game. You dont need to worry about having the top dps in the game, group etc. Just enjoy a game the way its made. If you want to know how you fare dps wise, try different builds and see what kills faster. Enjoy the game by playing how you enjoy it. No need in making a job of it to keep the top build.
No need for aggro at all. Spec your character the way you want to play and enjoy the game. You don't need to worry about holding aggro as the tanking in a group. Just enjoy the game the way it's made. If you want to know how you fare tank wise, try different builds and see what holds aggro better. Enjoy the game by playing how you enjoy it. No need in making a job of it to keep the top build.
No need for damage for a healer to heal at all. Spec your character the way you want to play and enjoy the game. You don't need to worry about healing the group in a group. Just enjoy the game the way it's made. If you want to know how well you fare at healing a group, try different builds and see if you can keep the group alive better. Enjoy the game by playing how you enjoy it. No need in making a job of it to keep the top build.
Do you see the hypocracy? It's easy to see when a tank fails to do his job, the mobs are running around everywhere hitting the squishy characters. It's easy to see when a healer is failing, everyone in the group is dying from raid damage.
BUT we can't see how well a DPS class is doing because that information is his and his alone. His ability has no impact on the experience for others?
For all of you people against DPS meters, are you also against having the boss in an encounter have an aggro table? Should you just pick the target you want to have the boss beat on and click a button and that happens. What about healers? should there be no damage because the healers just want to play the way they enjoy and having to spec into certain talents ruins their fun?
Why are DPS classes exempt from Responsibility?
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If your moving...
Assault Plas > Demo
Hammer Shot + Plasma > Gun Hammer Shot + AP
HIB > Gun HIB
Inc Round > Explosive Round
Pretty obviously will yield more damage. Even though you have the same "cast times" on all these abilities, AS versions will do more damage. What part of that did you not understand?
The part where you just say things without giving any explanations or doing anything resembling theorycraft or a combat parse. Also, you arn't comparing the right abilities, I already did this earlier in the thread and somehow you still get it wrong.
Assault Plastique is the AS version of Sticky Grenade. It even starts the cooldown on both of them. Yes, it does more damage, roughly 1.5 better scaling on tech bonus damage. For the scaling difference to beat out the armor pen from Gunery, Just counting the AP cell would be anything below 60% damage reduction on your target, which I think would be most targets you cast it on. But the damage difference is less than it looks by just looking at the scaling difference.
Hammer Shot with AS is not better than Hammer Shot with Gunnery, I've already showed you the math on that one multiple times. Please read the thread.
HIB with Gunnery Equals the damage with AS if you ignore armor penetration and try to maximize the amount of cooldown resets you get as AS spec, meaning you spend most of your time chain casting Charged Bolts. Again, another post I already made that shows this, please go back and read it.
Incendiary Round is not the equivalent of Explosive round, it is the equivalent of Demo Round. I haven't done the math on this one yet but, a quite looks show Demo to have a coefficient of 2.0 with a 15 second cooldown while Incendiary Round has a 2.3 coefficient with an 18 second cooldown. Demo Round has much higher burst, but the sustained damage looks roughly the same, assuming you ignore the armor pen in Gunnery and the Damage buff from casting Grav Round.
Why are you comparing a Cell to Rain of Fire at all?
Because both of them provide passive % increases to damage.
And .84 ^ 3 = .59 to not have the proc. Seems a lot closer to 41% then 16%.
Correct, but most attacks don't hit 3 times in one global cooldown. And the scaling isn't very good to make this viable, 1:1 scaling on weapon damage and ~.15 scaling on bonus tech damage. Every other ability we have scales better than that.
I wouldn't count plasma, it does both kinetic and elemental, pretty much a wash.
Now that they are listed out, It's probally not half. It's a good chunk for sure with the talents and what not, but not half.
Do you now see how hyperbole and a lack of evidence is not helping this discussion?
That's not true. Charged barrier and curtain of fire proc off charged bolts and grav round. You don't use charged bolts, so you don't count it against yourself. That's essentially the exact same thing I would be doing as AP, I wouldn't count any of the plasma components against myself.
That's what we in the business of theorycraft call Decoy Talents.
But it is. I have seen single Hammer Shot crit's as high as 975 damage. A single shot. I have no reason to lie here. It's our basic attack lol. On average, My hammer shots do around 1k damage. I can spec back to Gunnery if youd like, and tell you exactly how much it does.
You've see one crit for 975 and now all of your hits are for 1k, The highest damage weapon in the game has a max of 597 damage, to simply get to 1k damage you would need to have 400 bonus damage from Aim/Power, which would equate to having roughly 2000ish power/aim. Which would require you to have the best gear in the game to pull that off, and I'm not even sure you would get close to that. And of course your target to have no armor or base stats.
It could use some improvements, sure. But it's not as bad as people make it out to be.
I have been queing with another 50 AS Commando lately. Everything stacks. It's pretty sick lol.
It would also stack with another Gunnery Commando, with full grav round stacks from each other you would have roughly 58% armor pen and much higher burst.
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You could, but being just as mobile as me would result in less damage then I do. I think that's the issue im trying to impart.
Again, show me how. Please don't just say, "oh i know i'm doing more damage even though the math says i'm not."
Aside from the obvious ones? None. Doing it as gunnery, again, will yield less damage.
Again more claims without any proof.
No, No it doesn't. Three Chances to crit will equate to more overall damage then a single chance to crit. That's pretty standard math. Not sure where you are going with this.
Sorry man, that's not how math works.
This response makes no sense to what you quoted. Rain of Fire was not in the quote at all,
You're right, I just quoted the part about the 9% extra damage on burning targets talent, not Rain of fire the talent that gives 9%extra damage on burning targets.
and I said Grav will always win. And again, 16%, Times 3, is not 16%. Not sure where your missing the multiple hit effects.
You seem to be implying that the damage is much closer than it really is. It's not 16% times three, it's .84 ^ 3 to not have the proc.
I appologize, im at work and dealing with alot of things. Not sure how i came up with that. Atleast half my damage is elemental.
Somehow I doubt that, very few attacks deal elemental damage, Plasma Cell, the burn on Plasma Grenade, Incendiary Round, and Pulse Cannon. That just leaves soo much time for you to be doing other things that I just can't believe that half your damage is elemental. And impossible to prove without some theorycraft on your part or a combat log parse, which you can't provide.
It's not 15 talents. Why do you keep saying that. If your not using Plasma Cell, it becomes IRRELEVANT that plasma cell shares a talent with something you would take either way. The only complete waste you have is the 3 points to get the HIB talent.
The statement was less effective. Not using Plasma Cell has an effect on all of those talents I listed, even if it is small. If there is any talent you disagree with please say which one. But ultimately the point is that with a Gunnery Spec I don't have any "wasted talents," I may have some that are situational, but none of them are less effective than the description based on how I play.
Nobody has Elemental Damage reduction. It's in a different category from Kinetic/Energy. And being at 107% accuracy, I reduce any Elemental Reduction they DO have, by 7%.
So, but that logic, they would have to have 14% Elemental Res for AP to be better then Plasma? Im pretty sure no one in the world has 14%.
That was in the context of the amount of damage dealt by Hammer Shot, which deals weapon damage aka Energy damage. AP cell has no effect on Elemental or Internal damage, but at the same time neither does Plasma Cell. The damage that both specs deal with elemental attacks is the same, save for Burnout and Assault Trooper talents.
My Grav Round hits for like 1400 or so, crits for around 3200? Something like that, I havent been Gunnery since i completed my PvP gear set, so don't quote me on that.
If grav Round hits for like 1400 damage, your Hammer Shot is not hitting for 1k damage, which is what I was saying.
First of all, i'm not an idiot, my friend and i used all the available skills to keep the distance. But in case you're on CD and a shadow's behind your back already you just can't do anything at all. No, you can - you can avoid some damage but you can't damage back. Secondly, i didn't say i didn't like Gunnery
I like it so much for many aspects. I rerolled back to gunnery yesterday btw and now learn how to deal with melees.I'm sure the spec has great potential.
But my point was how does an AS spec handle this situation better? If you CC is on cooldown it comes back faster with a Gunnery Spec. You have the same number of instacast spells you can use on the move, most of which will deal more damage than with an AS spec, save for Assault Plastique I think.
The point I'm trying to make is that AS is a weak spec that needs some improvements from Bioware.
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Having the same number of cast time/instacast spells doesn't change how the class is played. I spend the majority of the WZ moving. There's only one skill I cast that has a channel/cast time now, and thats Full Auto. More often then not, im just casting that for the 60% HIB refresh.
Could you then say the reverse for AS? That since we both have the same skills, as gunnery I could be just as mobile as you? Or does it only benefit the way you play?
Again what abilities are you using as AS that can't be done with Gunnery?
Hammer Shot does a LOT more damage then people give it credit for. Multi Hit skills and procs get added value from crit and surge. Lets say you have 50% crit. Grav Round has 50% Crit. Hammer Shot has 50% Crit, 50% Crit, 50% Crit.
This means that over time, Hammer shots Effective Value is going to be higher then stated because of multiple hits compared to a single hit.
There's this thing called statistics. Please go learn how probability works before saying things like this. 50% crit benefits all abilities the same, except for abilities with increased crit damage, which Hammer Shot does not have.
It won't ever flat beat Grav Round, at least over time, even with the EV increase and 9% talent. But it get's it close enough that Plasma Cell will make up the difference.
Cool math you did there. Did you miss the part where AP cell beats out Rain of Fire at 18% damage reduction. AKA every target you hit, and it doesn't need you to either hit a 16% proc or waste 3 ammo on a low dps ability.
There's also the issue of different Cells.
As much as we associate Armor Pen with Gunnery, I think there's a relevant case to be made for it in AS. While you do lose some effectiveness in Talents, It's essentially going to add 35% damage to your rotation, as Elemental Damage isn't really resisted, and Kinetic is naturally resisted.
Again, math must not be your strong point. 35% armor pen =/= 35% damage increase, it depends on how much armor your Target has for the damage % increase. Also the amount of elemental damage you deal, even as an AS spec should be small compared to the amount of Kinetic damage and Energy damage you deal.
Also, it isn't some effectiveness, it's 15 talents you spent points in that are less effective because you switched cells. That's 37% of your talent points that are not as effective as they could be. It's almost like you stopped spending you talent points at level 35 while playing a level 50 character.
I have not tested this however, and will test it tonight. In the end I think it will be better for burst, worse for sustained. Plasma Cell is just so sexy.
Plasma cell has a .35 ratio on bonus damage per tic, at a 16% proc rate, that's adding an average of .056 tech bonus damage per attack. To have that beat out 35% armor pen, you target would have to have like less than 7% damage reduction, AKA armor cell always beats it.
Also saying that your Hammer Shot hits for 1k damage on average? That means you average hit for charged bolts/grav round would be like 4k damage.
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I tried both specs and still doubt what's best My valor lvl is 34 and i experienced a lot of different situations in both specs. I came to conclusion that both are really fine in PVP and you just won't find the best one between them because their roles and combat style are absolutely different and things that work well in one situation don't in another.
Gunnery is just amazing spec with so delicious numbers when you stand still and shoot down one by one. (until shadow appears behind and brings ***pain by breaking your grav cast TT). In general Gunery is a lazy mode, but don't throw tomatoes in me )) Comparing with vanguard ACs and Commando AS - Gunnery requires nothing else but stand calm and shoot "rabbits" running around fighting with your team mates. Others have to do MUCH more to reach the same numbers. Unfortunately Gunner loses most of the numbers in face to face combat with a good player against. What we can't say about AS.
AS is good on the move there's nothing to add. Whatever guys have said above concerning the same spec mobility, AS is much more mobile i can say. It's just my subjective feeling about it. In most cases i have to kite melee running around and hide behind walls from range DOTing them with inc round, plasma grenades etc. But it's still much easier to change your dislocation with less damage reduction than you'd do being a Gunner.
I added a couple of Commandos to my friend list and we gonna test more and more both of the specs. For now i choose AS just not to be a turret on the battlefield and have more chances against stealthers. Can't forget the phrase of my enemy "spam more gravs" when i tried to kill him in melee and each time he broke the cast kicking my *** until i die. That was REALLY sad my friends. And i knew, i could do nothing with it in that small room we fought, except sticky and stock. That's upset indeed about the Gunnery.
Time will tell what to choose on 50 but though i use AS now my soul calls for Gunnery
Hope you'll write about your experience not pure theory craft.Have you read the discussion?
Did you just read the title and decide to respond? Look at some of the earlier posts i made and realize that this figment of your imagination know as "AS having more mobility" is just that, not true.
You literally have the same number of cast time and instacast spells, it is not possible for AS to be more mobile, unless you are just spamming Hammer Shot while running around like a headless chicken or tab dotting everyone with incendiary round. Both of which deal useless damage.
What is wrong with theorycraft? It's telling you that your perferred style of play might not be the best in there is? It can't take into account everything that can happen? It's something those nerds down the hall do? What is wrong with good theorycrafting? And if you could, what part of my theorycraft was wrong/do you disagree with?
Oh wait, I missed this gem:
Can't forget the phrase of my enemy "spam more gravs" when i tried to kill him in melee and each time he broke the cast kicking my *** until i die. That was REALLY sad my friends. And i knew, i could do nothing with it in that small room we fought, except sticky and stock. That's upset indeed about the Gunnery.
No wonder you think Gunnery is bad, you don't know how or just didn't play it correctly. You facetank'd a melee class and expected to win? You didn't even use a knockback/stun and try to kite? Did you somehow lose the ability to cast Demo Round, High Impact Bolt, Stockstrike, Explosive Round, Hammershot, and Sticky Grenade? It's hard to take your critique of Gunnery seriously when you don't play it correctly and then proceed to come here and complain.
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I use Charged bolts in situations where I have control. Hammer shot is doing the same damage as Charged bolt, instantly, without standing still, proccing Plasma cell etc. It's actually alot better then people give it credit for. Will it alone do more damage then grav round stacking? No, never. But it gives me versatility.
That's impossible, simply impossible for Hammer Shot to deal more damage than Charged Bolts. Hammer Shot's damage is the same as your weapon damage, while Charged Bolts scales better than 1:1 on weapon damage, includes ranged bonus damage, and has a base damage. There is no possible way for Hammer Shot to deal the same damage as Charged Bolts.
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Don't get me wrong, I want a discussion. But if were gonna be in magical christmas land where your always gonna have your procs/cooldowns, that's not a discussion.
Hence the statement that I was comparing "best" case scenarios.
AS is almost entirely instant cast. Gunnery is almost entirely 1.5 Cast times.
Nope.
Sticky Grenade - Assault Plastique
Full Auto - Full auto
Grav Round - charged Bolts
Demo Round - Inc Round
HIB - HIB
Looks like the same to me.
Gunnery spams Grav Round / Full Auto and Demo on x5 Grav right? That means they have 1 Instant Cast spell, on a 15 second cooldown.
Not really sure if you are just ignorant of how Gunnery works in a pvp environment or you are deliberately misconstruing how the spec is played.
The rest of the time, Grav Round and Full auto is being cast for your damage rotation, for the most part anyway. That means you will likely Do the following:
Grav Round, Grav Round, Full Auto, Grav Round, Demo Round, HIB.
1.5 + 1.5 + 3 + 1.5 = 7.5 seconds your standing still. Only at the end you get to move. Even if you switch up the rotation, for whatever reason, your standing still for 7.5 out of 10.5 seconds. This is ofcourse pretty standard, and not including procs which would actually hurt your movement more while AS procs don't do that. Were not gonna count them though.
In a PvE situation what you said is mostly correct except for there being a priority system not a strict rotation.
A better opening for Gunnery is usually Sticky Grenade -> Grav Round -> Demo Round -> HIB. Only one of those abilities is a cast time spell.
AS Runs some combination of Full Auto, Inc Round, Assault Plastique, Hammer Shots, and HIB. Of which, only 3 seconds Standing still.
Again, you are forgetting that Gunnery has the same abilities or an equivalent.
I actually never use Charged Bolts in a situation where I don't have complete control.
The same could be said about Grav Round.
You only actually lose like 5 points, and you have to progress up anyway. Probally not a good idea, but plausible.
You might want to count again, but I'll be nice and do it for you:
Superheated Plasma - 3 points
Sweltering Heat - 2 points
High Friction Bolts - 2 points
Rain of Fire - 3 points
Assault Trooper - 2 points
Burnout - 3 points
Adds up to 15 talent points that are less effective if you switch to Armor Piercing Cell with an AS spec.
Again, I do not use Charged Bolt's unless im in complete control of the situation.
What do you use that is more effective or can't be done with Gunnery? Just a reminder that Armor Piercing Cell beats out Rain of Fire at about 17% damage reduction on your target.
I was getting at the fact that over a entire Warzone, you might have Charged Barrel and Grav Round's at 2.5 stacks on average. You were calculating from 5 stacks constantly which isn't realistic.
Hence the term best case scenario.
Armor reduction actually hurts your Armor Piercing Cell. You realize that right?
100 armor - 5 Grav Rounds = 80 armor. 35% penetration = 52 total armor, or a 48% reduction.
100 armor 35 % Penetration = 65 armor, or a 35% reduction.
Is it really worth 2.5 cast's of Grav Rounds for a 13% additional reduction?
I mean, that's 3.75 seconds to get 13% more damage on just physical damage stuff. Don't see the point.
Considering Grav round does more than just reduce armor, it also provides a damage reduction, buff to HIB, and buff to Demo Round, and it's also my go to ability considering how efficient it is with ammo I would have to say that it is worth it.
You wouldn't spend 3.75 seconds to get 13% more damage on every ability you use except for Plasma Cell, Plasma Grenade, Incendiary Round, and Pulse Cannon?
Ammo Costs are always going to benefit AS with free and +1 talents.
Might want to look at that talent again. It only effects HIB at a 30% chance on charged bolts, which you said you dont use very much, and 60% Full auto, which has a 15second cooldown. While the Gunnery ammo talent is 1 cell every time you crit with Demo Round, Grav Round, Full auto. So I would be hesitant to say AS will always win out.
If Gunnery can stand still and be a friggen turret, of course its gonna win. But that's never gonna happen against good players.
The problem with AS is that even with movement Gunnery seems to do very comparable damage, maybe even better. I admit I have yet to do the full theorycraft on this yet, but if Gunnery >>>>> AS when standing still and AS is comparable to Gunnery on the move, it would make sense that Gunnery is the superior spec. And we haven't even begun to discuss the better CC options in Gunnery compared to AS.
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I stopped reading when you counted 5 Grav Rounds before HIB.
It's very discourteous to ask for a discussion and not even read what the people presenting another point of view are saying.
Do you seriously think, that your EVER going to get 5 grav rounds on a target consistently enough to call it "math".
If your gonna try and use math to disprove my theory of AS, then at least use REALISTIC math and I will be glad to smash it.
You missed my point. I was countering the fact that you have more mobility while using AS spec because in order to get a "significant" improvement in movement(in this "best" case scenario it's trading a 1.5s cast time for an instacast spell every 15seconds) you have to spend a large amount of time standing still spamming cast time abilities. Both AS and Gunnery have the same amount of instacast spells and cast time spells.
Lets put it this way.
1: I could be in Armor Pen Cell as well.
Yes, you could waste roughly ~15 talent points, but something tells me that just puts you even further behind Gunnery.
2: Your almost never going to have 5 charged barrell's / grav rounds when your
HIB'ing.
I realize that, the point I would make is that the cooldown reset on Charged Bolts and the damage increase from Charged Barrel on Grav round is roughly the same per cast. So it's a moot point, except for the fact that it requires only two casts of grav round every 15seconds to beat out the damage buff from Rain of Fire and that doesn't include the armor reduction associated with Grav round. So if you don't get a cooldown reset Gunnery would always win out. I find it hard to believe that you couldn't cast two 1.5second abilities every 15seconds.
If you cut your barrel and grave rounds damage in half, and eliminate Armor Pen, you just cut that "comparable" damage, by what, 60%? It's not comparable anymore now is it?
Not even sure what you are trying to say here. If you cut Charged Barrel and Grav round's damage in half you would also have to cut Charged Bolt's and Ionic Accelerator's damage in half, due to them having similar numbers. You can eliminate the armor pen from Armor Piercing Cell, but you can't eliminate the armor reduction from Gravity vortex. And you also make ~15 of your talent points useless or half as effective.
I was going to do my best job at a very good theorycraft of damage output which would also include the ammo costs of both builds, but if this is the kind of response I'm going to be getting, I think I'm going to wait until after the holidays.
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I wrote up a response to each of your points. Then I got the the bolded part. At which point I deleted everything realizing that you weren't worth the time or effort.
If you think, even for 1 second, that Gunnery HIB is better in ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM, then AS, you clearly haven't even looked at the tree.
If I had to guess, I would suspect your aren't even level 30 yet. Leave the Tree Discussion to people who have reached level 50, and played both tree's, k?
You really proved your point there with all of your math and such.
AS:
High Friction Bolts: 30% armor pen
Rain of Fire: Conditional 9% damage on burning targets
Assault Trooper: 30% extra crit damage
Ionic Accelorator: Full Auto(60%)/CB(30%) to reset HIB Cooldown
Gunnery
Armor Piercing Cell: 35% armor penetration
Grav Round x 5 : 20 % armor reduction
Charged Barrel: 30% Damage buff after 5 Grav rounds
More comparable than you let on. The only real edge that AS would have over on Gunnery on HIB would be the cooldown reset, but considering you completely missed my point on that. My point was that you in no meaningful way have more mobility with AS than Gunnery especially since the one ability that is even comparable between the two requires you to spam a lot of Charged Bolts and Full auto, both channeled abilities which would be counter to the point that you can deal more damage while retaining more movement.
Math:
Assualt:
Assuming you hit your target with Incid Round to get the burn effect going, then hit with HIB to get the bonus damage from burning and the ammo reduction. You have to remain stationary for 0 seconds.
Damage : Inc Round + HIB
Gunnery:
Start with grav round into HIB. you have to remain stationary for 1.5 seconds.
Damage : Grav round + HIB
Gunnery:
The next part for this is easy to figure out.
Spam Full Auto/Grav round/Demo round until HIB cooldown is finished.
Assualt: Somewhat more difficult, but we can look at the average amount of times the cooldown is reset over a 15s duration to compare the potential damage of AS to a fully buffed Gunnery HIB that will be available after it's cooldown is up.
Full auto: 3s channel, 15second cooldown 60% chance to reset.
Charged Bolts: 1.5s cast, 0s cooldown, 30% chance to reset.
Charged Bolt chance to reset after two casts is 51%, so it's always better to cast Full auto when it's off cooldown than spam CB.
over a 13.5 period(15s-1.5s gcd) you will get 1 full auto and 6.66666 CBs.
Now, each time you get the cooldown reset you lose on of the CB casts which is replaced by a HIB, which is a small dps loss, but gives you mobility because of it's an instant cast ability.
For a damage comparison, one of the HIB resets that you get is basically off set by the cast of demo round for Gunnery.
The average number of resets you will get during the 6 CBs is a little more than 1, so the question becomes does 1.3ish HIB deal more damage than the one cast of HIB from Gunnery at the end of the 15seconds? I would say no, due to the high level of armor pen that Gunnery will have over AS and the fact that you can also put an instacast Demo round in there meaning you would have roughly the same amount of mobility. Also you have to take into account the amount of extra damage you will deal on all of your other abilities, especially Full Auto.
All in all, the mobility gain of AS is roughly one instant cast spell over a 1.5s cast every 15ish seconds.
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That's not how damage works. If your standing still, you make yourself an easier target. If 2 people jump on you and you continue to try and spam grav/Full Auto, you have ZERO chance to do anything.
If you move around, your mitigating damage and CC just by kiting. That's the entire point of mobility.
Now you add in Cooldown factors, Shield, Knockback, etc. If your standing still, it helps you survive a little bit longer.
If your moving, it multiplies the effects of kiting / Mitigation. Add in heals, and it gets multiplied again.
The simple fact is, the longer you survive, the more overall damage AND effect on the war zone you will have. If you really wanna stand still and blow one person up, roll a gunslinger, they do more damage then you do. If you wanna win WZ's and top damage charts against good players, Go AS/or some hybrid.
You say that like Gunnery doesn't have the same abilities. You still kite with Gunnery, it isn't just standing around facetanking while just spamming grav/full auto. How is AS more mobile? Assualt Plastique is the same as sticky Grenade, Demo round is the same as Inc round, but can have a 25% damage buff, Grav round is better than charged bolts, Gunnery full auto is like 75% more damage than AS full auto, Gunnery HIB is better than AS HIB. AS isn't more mobile than Gunnery, if it is you are doing it wrong and not dealing as much damage as you can.
I like it so much for many aspects. I rerolled back to gunnery yesterday btw and now learn how to deal with melees.
DPS Commando PvP theory crafting
in Commando / Mercenary
Posted · Edited by Kenmuir
Hammer Shot hits three times, once for ~25%, once for ~50% and once for ~25%. Those numbers might be wrong, but it's definitely three hits, with the middle one being the largest. It is interesting to note that the three hits for Hammer Shot appear to roll independently for avoidance, but not for the proc on Plasma Cell.
Also, I would recommend against a Hybrid build, especially for PvE. You really want to get the top 31 point talent in the tree if you are going more than 10 points in it. The bottoms of Assault and Combat Medic force you to spend a lot of points in their related cells. But you can only have one active at a time, switching requires a 1.5s cast, so that's basically causing you to lose talent points, where as if you went up to the top of a tree you don't really have any wasted points.
Most hybrid specs are a solo PvP kind of thing. The only real hybrid I can come up with is a Combat Medic, Gunnery build. Mostly because gunnery still benefits from Combat Support Cell. But the problem with hybrid specs is that it's easier to justify spending one more point in your primary tree, the one with the most points in it, than it is to spend a point in a secondary tree.