Kenmuir
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Posts posted by Kenmuir
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Here's what I don't get:
If the encounter already shows you something, such as fields of death, cast bars, emotes, why does it significantly impact the difficulty of the game if I have it displayed in the center of my game?
Why is searching the UI for important information, made hard to find by that very same UI, good and challenging game design?
I think most people against Addon/DBM/GearScore/Recount/LFG just hate anything and everything "WoW", even if most of these things are in other games. You can hear it in their fearful remarks and slippery slope fallacies, both with the undertow of selfish desires and superiority complexes.
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You'd think that when they scavenged up the WAR team to help with SWTOR they would have taken more than just the people there, such as some of the ideas. But, yes these are all good ideas that I hope make it into the game in some way. Unfortunately for the OP, most people are going to see "WAR" and say something like "lol that game failed why would we want anything from that here?" without realizing that there are a lot of good ideas that can be learned from that game.
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For me what really ruins the community is not getting to know people on your server. And an LFG tool encourages that. Once people know that there's virtually no chance of ever running into the same people again on a cross-server LFG tool, they feel free to be rude as hale. But on your own server you have to maintain your rep to get pugs.
I would like to see a server-by-server LFG tool, no need to go cross-server. I see plenty of people spam for groups on Assassins of Sion even if they don't get them, and my server's not even heavily populated, so it would work.
1. Why are you a mean/rude person to people you will never meet again?
2. Why do you assume that since your(a common selfish observance of anit-lfg people) server is "okay"(again, by your definition and most likely confirmation bias) that no one else could want one or use one? (And most importantly should never have one)
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Taugrim, I would take a note of the changes to Assassin/Shadows in the PTR/next patch. Bioware seems to disapprove of hybrid specs, and they went about it by nerfing the effectiveness of hybrid play styles instead of making it more beneficial to spec all the way to the top of a tree. Which doesn't seem to unreasonable considering only a couple classes can make a viable hybrid spec. But, I wouldn't be surprised if in the future that some of the lower talent points in Tactics started to require High Energy Cell.
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So you want a reason to bash and harass your fellow party members, is what the subtext there is saying. I understand. You want to ruin the game's fun of sociability for your own sadistic, selfish pleasures. I get it.
Oh god, the hypocrisy of this post. It's really too much.
"You want to ruin the game's fun of sociability for your own sadistic, selfish pleasures."
Comedy gold right here.
"PiperPilot wants to ruin the game's fun of challenge and self-scrutinization(in the eyes of people who like recount) for his own sadistic, selfish pleasures of 'community'."
But really, no one can force you to use recount, your fears of the slippery slope of difficult game design(an interesting complaint I read, If you have no problem doing "top" dps without Recount how does this impact you? Interesting hypocrisy.) are unfounded, and there's the interesting revelation that you think if someone has a tool they can "abuse" they will(most likely from self projection).
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Yes I am confident that they try to make a better tool than wow has. If they just add the wow tool, then the people who left wow because of it might leave and those that just are on vacation from wow will go anyways.
All the recent MMO´s made that mistake, so I am guessing they learned from those.
Why would an LFD tool be the reason they leave? Because WoW has a tool, SWTOR can't have one that's the same?
I would think people would be more likely to go back to WoW because some of the classes in SWTOR are exact copies of classes in WoW, and the unpolishedness of the game.
I think it depends a lot on your kind of fun that your looking for. If you just want to do dungeons, then you end up bored sooner or later as the day will come when you saw all dungeons and have gathered all loot.
Ah, I see the problem, people don't enjoy or want to play the game in the way that you do.
While this does happen anyways, its not that much of a problem if you met people during that "exploring" phase. As then you just play with them and the fun does come by playing with them.
If the fun comes from "playing with them," not from trying to form a group, then wouldn't a tool that helps people create groups faster and easier be a good thing?
But if you just use the LFD tool, then you dont meet anyone
I don't understand this comment. How can you not "meet anyone" in the LFD tool. Does the LFD tool disable chat?
Before you say: "bbbbut, I can't play with someone from another server." Blizz already figured that one out and now you can queue with people from other servers.
and thats also the reason why so many leave wow lately.
Source?
They have seen everything and dont know anyone, to play an MMO is not fun alone, you need people there.
So once again, you seem to have a problem with people playing this game a different way than the way you enjoy. So much so, that you aren't even able to empathize with other player's desires(how they want to play).
There the wow tool has also its weakness, I sometimes met nice people (not often but ya it happend), I had no way of interacting with them after the run.
Factually Untrue after the introduction of the Real ID system.
I think its not easy for those who just played wow with the LFD tool to adjust, but I think its not impossible.
Why should they? What benefits do they gain?
BW is a bit slacking with helping those people out. Most servers today have an LFG chat channel, which you could join. By doing so you can go out into the world and see if someone does need a helping hand at a dungeon or some elite quest.
Why should the players be the ones making it easier to play the game that they are playing for?
BW should have had such a channel right on release and not weeks later.
What does a global channel accomplish, and what separates it substantially from an LFD tool a la WoW?
If designed right the LFD tool
What, in your opinion, is a good design for an LFD tool that doesn't have arbitrary restrictions?
I doubt it will be much help for you if you cant interact with people, as its pretty much always the people that keep you at MMO´s and not the daily dungeon run with strangers.So why do you not want what has been shown in the most successful MMO to date as the best tool for playing with other players?
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Just to compare to the other Ranged DPS/Healer Class(Commando/Mercenary):
Shield(Insta cast heal, awesome scaling, appliable to others, run speed buff(talented)) -> nothing
aoe knockback(20s cooldown, 8m range), with talents immoblizes for up to 5s, unlimited targets -> aoe knockback(30s(20s talented) cooldown, 4m range(8m talented), with 4s slow, max 5 targets
speed boost -> nothing
10m 6s slow, 12s cooldown -> nothing
10m Ranged Interupt, 4s(6s talented) lockout, 12s cooldown-> nothing
Extrication -> nothing
4s stun 60s cooldown(50s talented), deals damage -> 4s stun 60s cooldown, no damage
3s 50% channeled slow -> nothing or 25 pts in gunnery for 50% channeld slow
force armor aoe sleep(talented) -> stock strike single target knockback(talented)
in combat rez -> nothing
That's a lot of nothing that the other ranged dps/healer class gets. It's also nice that i get to spend talent points to make my abilities have the same effects that sage/sorc get base line. The only thing that commando/mercenary gets base line that sage/sorc doesn't is a 12second 25% damage reduction with a 2 minute cooldown. Your opponent would have to do 12k damage or more in 12seconds for that to be better. The downside is that reactive shield has a 2 minute cooldown, compared to the 20s cooldown on force armor and reactive shield can not be cast on other people.
On armor:
Most dps classes have ~50% armor reduction, plus the penetration from accuracy, or deal elemental/internal damage, so to say that 30% mitigation vs 15% mitigation is meaningful is about as truthful as saying that sorc/sage has better defense due to having twice the base avoidance chance(10% vs 5%).
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Well, here's the second set of results. Looks like I was wrong.
Maybe the original sample size wasn't large enough, so the numbers shifted enough to look like it fit the hypothesis.AP Cell makes Grav Round go from 20% damage reduction to 10% somehow
, even though it's a 35% armor pen. The expected change is mitigation between the two was supposed to be : (1 - (100/103)) = 2.9%
The observed was 11.5% with AP cell on, and 8.7% with AP cell off.
Not even close. The damage mitigation is within a couple % of the first test, so it looks like the randomness of the initial sample just made it look like it fit the curve of (1-(100/TotalAccuracy))
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Everyone against mod/addons/dps meters is a hypocrite at best or selfish at worst.
Please Explain:
1. How is having one interface fair/balanced? When did all 1 million people who play this game develop the same cognitive abilities? Why should someone who is better able to understand visuals have an advantage over someone who prefers words?
2. Why is the "challenge" of navigating the UI an important part of the challenge of this game in your eyes? I thought the challenge of the game was supposed to be knowing what's going on and choosing how to respond. If the UI prevents me, or gives an advantage to someone else, then why should I not be allowed to change it to a way that is better for me?
3. Why are addons bad? Why is a real time dps meter bad? (Please, without the slippery slop fallacy that it forces the developers to make content harder) How does it impact the encounter difficulty if I see a text or audio warning for the fire? The game already makes a visual model, and my health goes down. I'm still being warned about the "bad stuff", just in a different way.
4.How is recount bad? Someone linked something in chat? That's your problem with it? Please start to use the ignore function if it's that much of a problem for you. How does knowing how I and my group performed in an encounter a problem? Why is a binary reinforcement system a good design choice? (Without combat log, it becomes did I win or lose, no measurable amount of in-between)
5. How do you differentiate between UI mods and "evil bad meanie" mods? I mean this in a technical way. A mod that changes your player frames (X-perl) most likely uses the same or a significant amount of the API calls that DBM uses. How would you allow one and not the other? Both look at the combat log, do math, change colors, draw things, and use the internal clock. How do you make one not work but let the other one go free? Do you realize how arbitrary your distinction between the mods you like and don't like is?
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Well, I'm going to due another test, this time with 103% bonus(I'm too cheap to respec, but I did remove all of my gear with Accuracy) accuracy to check my results.
Some things that could be happening:
1. It doesn't work on static damage abilities, such as Force Lightning/Force Choke
2. The damage calculations for Charged Bolts/Grav Round are not reflected accurately in the tooltip
3. The accuracy adrenal doesn't work, everyone who tried to duplicate my results used one and couldn't do it.
Hopefully my next test results come out proving my hypothesis correct, but unfortunately I think that means that the accuracy adrenal is bugged.
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http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=194690
This might be why. Although I need to do some more testing to reach a final conclusion.
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I find it hard to believe that this thread got to 14 pages, and no one corrected the OP on how much Armor Pen Merc/Commado has. Really disappointing.
It's a 48% armor pen, that requires 4.5seconds to get to:
(EnemyArmor * .8) * (1 - .35) = EnemyArmor * .52
Now this balances out with the 9% damage buff in Assault at roughly 17% damage reduction. It's one of the reasons that the two specs are similar in damage.
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Now to aid my arguement I will use WoW addons so don't get pissed.
I don't want addons like the following...
- Omen
- Recount
- Gearscore
- DBM
All I really want is addons that allow me to customize the UI I mean the likes of Grid, Bartender, CC timer and things that allow me to customize the UI and make it look better for what I am doing. I mean I don't need a linear line of moves when I am healing I only need a little square pushed to the side all keybinded and a nice large ops frame front and center that has the health bars of who I am healing maximized and can at least flash and change color when I debuff is popped. I can perfectly see boss particle effects and aggro is not a problem. Damage mesurement does not seem like a problem in this game seeing how I have not seen any enrage mechanics in flashpoints and threat is simple to keep so ideally all people want is the ability to make a UI that fits their classes needs and the basic SWTOR UI is not cutting it.
What's the difference between Grid, Bartender, Power Auras(CC Timers) and Omen, Recount, GearScore, DBM?
Grid -> move the raid frames into positions you want, size you want, display buffs/debuffs you want
Bartender -> move the ability pages to anywhere you want, create any number of them that you want
Power Auras -> Highlight the buffs/debuffs that you think are important
Compared to:
Omen -> display the threat of you current target in the way you want
Recount -> display the combat log in the way you want, filter for information you think is important, easier to read than 10k lines of text
GearScore -> display the inspect panel in the way you want, highlighting the stats that are important
DBM -> display the raidwarnings in a way that you want
Seems like the same kind of addon to me.
But in a technical sense, how would you distinguish between Power Auras and Recount? Both look at the combat log and I assume use basically the same API calls, so how would you disable one and not the other? Or does your hatred for Recount allow you to let go of the usefulness of Power Auras.
The addon that I want most is BuffHead from WAR, it displays buffs/debuffs that you select on top of the target you have selected and yourself.
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That is awesome, you don't even know what other skills you have you use the one so much.
Please, oh great one, tell me what other skills I forgot to mention?
Surprise, surprise the trolls do nothing but personal attacks and evade the question at hand.
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What else would you rather have them cast OP?
Every other ability Commando/Mercenary has is either a 15s cooldown or a CC. The only abilities you could even put Gravity Vortex/Heat Signiture on are already buffed by Grav Round/Tracer. The only other "real" attacks that the Commando/Merc has are High Impact Bolt(6% extra damage per cast of Grav Round, only usable on targets that are Hit with Grav Round or have a DOT), Demolition Round(5% extra damage per Vortex/Signiture), Full Auto(Grav Round/Tracer has a 30% chance to reduce cooldown and give 25% extra damage). So much of the rest of the tree; 2% damage reduction on self per cast, 1 cell on crits, in total almost half of the tree, is dependent on casting Grav Round/Tracer Missile often.
What would you rather have them do? Spam Hammer Shot all day? lol
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In the screenshot of the tech accuracy tooltip you showed it clearly states accuracy over 100% reduces a target's resistance. Right now it is assumed that bosses have a certain amount of resistance to Force and Tech attacks. It's kind of similar to spell penetration in WoW, where spells cannot miss but CAN be resisted. There's no armor penetration going on here.
I just dont get it. Did you not read the entire post I made? My results showed differently. Why do you put so much faith in the Game's tooltips?
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Keep using snide rebuttals at people's intelligence; I'm sure it'll garner more people to your favor.
And as stated before, I did read the post: other then you posting some made up formula (yes-made up: there's no proof that the "formula" you posted is in any way shape or form an actual in-game mechanic for calculating the damage) you have done nothing to prove anything.
If I've "made it up" it was to fit the data I found. What is your explination for that data that I provided? I extropulated the fromula from the data I found, I didn't make it up from nothing. Orginally I thought that is was (Armor - BonusAccuracy), but I found out it was (Armor - (1 - (100/TotalAccuracy))),
At best, you're posting conjecture...which means nothing. At worst, you're posting straight misinformation which again...means nothing.
"And I say, I say...GOOD DAY to you sir!"
No. At worst, I'm posting conjecture with information to support my claims. I've yet to see you prove what I've said is false.
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In short: No.
In Length: Even though I DID read your post and title; we don't need to read it because it's spreading misinformation. It explicitly states in-game that accuracy over 100% reduces the target(enemy) defense chance.
BioWare not only explicitly states this when hovering over the tooltip but it's an actual loading screen tip as well!!!
If this is incorrect and they have a BUG that incorrectly calculates it, then fine; do your math and then post it in the relevant forum for reporting bugs and/or make a bug-report in game.
Again, this is all a big IF which ASSUMES you actually did happen across a miscalculation bug and you aren't just misinterpreting data (Which I highly suspect is the case).
Edit: Just for further proof of people providing misinformation. People SWORE that they got 1000 valor for killing turrets during Ilumday...and yet we saw how swiftly BW debunked that little rumor.
Misinformation? You seriously think I made every thing up?
Oh wait, you can't actually read, otherwise you would know that the tooltip/loading screen you are refering to is actually talking about "weapon damage" attacks. The tooltip YOU are looking at is the one under the "Ranged" tab. I'm talking about TECH attacks, which is under the "Tech" tab.
Again, this is all a big IF which ASSUMES you actually did happen across a miscalculation bug and you aren't just misinterpreting data (Which I highly suspect is the case).Something tells me you didn't actually read and understand the post I made.
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Plain and simple guys, as shown on the tooltips:
- Armor reduces ALL Kinetic and Energy damage, whether from a weapon attack or Force/Tech.
- Defense gives you added chance to deflect/dodge/parry attacks as well as resistance to Tech and Force attacks.
- Accuracy over 100 reduces the chance that you will be dodged/parried with your weapon damage attacks and reduces Resistance chance for your Tech/Force attacks.
So, in conclusion, this "test" of yours is essentially pointless, for lack of a better word.
This information is also explained in a loading screen tip.
Except my test shows that it also provides armor pen? Did you even look at the first post or did you just read the title?
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Just an absurd number of things wrong with this post...
First off, the sample size alone invalidates just about everything you posted. I was expecting a very large sample size since you said you had a spreadsheet, but you don't even have 100+ which I would consider a bare minimum for testing something involving things that have a swing of 50 or so on one, and close to FOUR HUNDRED on the other.
I think you need to learn statistics first. A sample size of 30, which I exceeded, is sufficient to reduce the "noise" in the data. Also, where's the 400 damage split?
To be honest, I wouldn't really accept anything with under 1000 samples for each ability in each circumstance, simply because of the massive swing between high and low.
I didn't have time to do 1000(!) samples for each one, it was simply a start to look at what I was noticing between tech and weapon damage attacks. Also I was trying to see if other people were noticing the same things, and to intice other people to also look into it.
Comparing an ability that has an attached Armor Reduction debuff on it to one that does not absolutely MUST have controlled testing conditions to get proper results. You said you were in a warzone testing, where any number of things could be occurring. Use a duel so that you can control the exact armor of who you are targeting.
I don't think you understand what I said. I said that the first column was done with class buffs from a warzone I had recently done, ie 5% aim, cunning, bonus damage, crit. I did not say I was doing the sampling in a warzone.
And of course I keep the armor reduction debuff as a control for the testing. I would get 5x gravity vortex, then start recording the numbers.
You don't say either way if you were attacking different targets or not, but as it was a Warzone, I find it unlikely you went out of your way to attack only one person and record a number when he had 0 debuffs, then wait for your own debuff to wear off him and hit him again. Again, you don't say you DIDN'T do this, but the fact you didn't say either way would indicate you most likely just went out and hit someone.
It was not recorded in a Warzone, I simply had all of the class buffs from a warzone in the first columns. I tested all of this on a lvl 48 gold star mob in Corellia, I think it was called an Imperial Demolition Droid?
You say you used Charged Bolts and Grav Round and indicated that you were seeing a confirmation of your accuracy formula, but you did not say how much accuracy you have on your gear.
If you look closely at the spread sheet, there is a row that shows how much accuracy I had for this test: 111.09%
For your formula to be confirmed with your results, you would need to have at least 100% RANGED accuracy(and thus, 110% TECH accuracy). Not saying this was not the case, but you didn't record any of this. Charged Bolts will always have 10% less accuracy, but only BONUS accuracy has an effect, so if you had 0 accuracy rating on gear, then your formula doesn't come into play, as Charged Bolts does not have extra accuracy yet and cannot receive bonus damage. Grav Round would be receiving bonus damage, but would be working up to the 9.13% difference. It wouldn't start there instantly when you hit 100.01% accuracy.
I think you don't understand what I am saying. Accuracy for weapon damage attacks does indeed reduce your opponents chance to dodge you attack when over 100%. What I am saying is that for TECH ATTACKS THAT DEAL KINETIC DAMAGE, accuracy over 100%(all bonus accuracy you have) turns into armor penetration.
Another issue is that, again, Charged Bolts is Weapon Damage and Grav Round is Kinetic Damage. This means a lot more than one has 10% less accuracy than the other.
They actually use different formulas to determine their damage output based on your stats. The biggest factor for Charged Bolts is your weapon damage range on the equipped weapon. Grav Round takes nothing from the weapon damage range. Charged Bolts usually has a higher damage ceiling, but a lower bottom as a result of this scaling difference and relying on weapon damage ranges.
The top row in the columns show the average base damage of the attack. And, yes charged bolts does have more base damage, but the observed results were lower.
Definitely not trying to flame you, but do not post things like this without doing proper testing, as they tend to have the unfortunate result of getting reposted as "proof" of something.
I think a 50ish sample size is enough to at least see a patern, maybe I didn't get the formula exactly right, but it at least shows something most people wouldn't expect.
As it stands, Accuracy reduces Defense, which is Avoidance and Elemental Resistance.
One big thing you mentioned at the beginning of your post was that Tech attacks already don't have to roll against the target's avoidance. This is simply not true until you get enough Accuracy above 100% to overcome the target's defense avoidance stats.
I don't think you know what you are talking about here. Avoidance stats only work on attacks that deal "weapon damage", there's a big post in most tanking forums and in the PvP forums about how useless avoidance stats are because most damage is dealt by attacks that completely avoid avoidance stats.
Base defense value of 5% means at the bare minimum you need 105% tech avoidance for your tech attacks to always hit.
Incorrect, defense only works on "weapon damage" attacks.
I can guarantee they will still miss before you hit that mark, as deflected Fusion Missiles were the bane of my existence before I had enough.
No they weren't because that has never happened. Fusion Missile cannot be deflected because it never rolls against the defense stat.
Those people that gear up with their Tank sets for PvP also become a pain if you have no Accuracy Rating on gear. Hell, they are a pain even WITH accuracy rating.
So all of those tanks that do have PvP gear with defense on them that are observing that it does absolutely nothing against attacks that deal something other than "weapon damage" were all wrong?
If accuracy for tech attacks that deal kinetic/energy damage doesn't turn into armor pen, what does it do?
Reduce Avoidance? Nope, tech attacks don't check avoidance.
Reduce Resist? Maybe, that's only a stat i've seen a few times, I think it's related to some kind of buff that Shadow/Assassins get because it doesn't happen often, but happens in succession. EDIT: The ability for Shadows is Resilience, which gives 100% resist to force and tech attacks. This is the only ability or buff that gives tech/force resist that I know about.
But how else would you explain the difference in observed damages between Charged Bolts and Grav Round, especially when Grav Round has a lower base damage, but higher observed damage?
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Here's your answer:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=194690
If it wasn't bad enough that Tech/Force attacks that deal Kinetic/Energy damage don't have to roll against an enemy's avoidance chance, they also get armor penetration from bonus accuracy.
The equation for it that I found was: 1 - (100/TotalAccuracy)
For example with 10% bonus accuracy you would have: 1 - (100/110) = ~9% armor pen
The weird thing though is that this is applied after every other armor pen or armor reduction(at least after the Commando's Gravity Vortex and Armor Penetration Cell), and it's a subtraction effect. For example if I had 50% armor penetration and 10% armor pen from bonus accuracy I would have 0% damage reduction on a target with 20% damage reduction from armor. You can also get negative armor reduction, increasing the damage you deal beyond the base damage of a spell.
Here's the googledoc that has all of my data. I realize it's not a whole lot of numbers, but it was very consistent.
I used Charged Bolts, a weapon damage attack, and Grav Round, a tech attack that deals kinetic damage. The first two sets of columns were done with class buffs from a warzone, so that's why the base damage is higher. After that, even though Charged Bolts has a higher average damage, it actually has a lower observed damage than Grav Round. The difference in damage reduction is roughly, 9.13%, where as the formula would say that the difference would be, 9.16%. I think it's close enough for the size of the sample. Also, the first column is done with AP cell on(35% armor penetration) and the rest is done without, and you can see that there is still the 9.13% mitigation difference, leading me to believe that the armor pen from accuracy is applied after everything else.
I don't know the diminishing returns on accuracy, but it seems like it's never a bad thing to have if you deal mostly Kinetic/Energy damage attacks. I haven't been able to test this for Force attacks yet, I don't have a high lvl sorc/sage and the test would be a little more difficult, but I would think that these findings would hold true for those attacks too.
So the final equation is:
((OpponentsArmor * (1 - ArmorReduction)) * (1 - ArmorPenetration)) - (1 - (100/TotalAccuracy) = Armor Reduction
(Yes, it's a post I made.)
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If it wasn't bad enough that Tech/Force attacks that deal Kinetic/Energy damage don't have to roll against an enemy's avoidance chance, they also get armor penetration from bonus accuracy.
The equation for it that I found was: 1 - (100/TotalAccuracy)
For example with 10% bonus accuracy you would have: 1 - (100/110) = ~9% armor pen
The weird thing though is that this is applied after every other armor pen or armor reduction(at least after the Commando's Gravity Vortex and Armor Penetration Cell), and it's a subtraction effect. For example if I had 50% armor penetration and 10% armor pen from bonus accuracy I would have 0% damage reduction on a target with 20% damage reduction from armor. You can also get negative armor reduction, increasing the damage you deal beyond the base damage of a spell.
Here's the googledoc that has all of my data. I realize it's not a whole lot of numbers, but it was very consistent.
I used Charged Bolts, a weapon damage attack, and Grav Round, a tech attack that deals kinetic damage. The first two sets of columns were done with class buffs from a warzone, so that's why the base damage is higher. After that, even though Charged Bolts has a higher average damage, it actually has a lower observed damage than Grav Round. The difference in damage reduction is roughly, 9.13%, where as the formula would say that the difference would be, 9.16%. I think it's close enough for the size of the sample. Also, the first column is done with AP cell on(35% armor penetration) and the rest is done without, and you can see that there is still the 9.13% mitigation difference, leading me to believe that the armor pen from accuracy is applied after everything else.
I don't know the diminishing returns on accuracy, but it seems like it's never a bad thing to have if you deal mostly Kinetic/Energy damage attacks. I haven't been able to test this for Force attacks yet, I don't have a high lvl sorc/sage and the test would be a little more difficult, but I would think that these findings would hold true for those attacks too.
So the final equation is:
((OpponentsArmor * (1 - ArmorReduction)) * (1 - ArmorPenetration)) - (1 - (100/TotalAccuracy) = Armor Reduction
EDIT: All of this testing was done on a LvL 48 gold star mob in Corellia, an Imperial Demolition Droid(Something like that), with a constant 5xGravity Vortex on the target(20% reduced armor).
EDIT2: Tested again:
Well, here's the second set of results. Looks like I was wrong.
Maybe the original sample size wasn't large enough, so the numbers shifted enough to look like it fit the hypothesis.AP Cell makes Grav Round go from 20% damage reduction to 10% somehow
, even though it's a 35% armor pen. The expected change is mitigation between the two was supposed to be : (1 - (100/103)) = 2.9%
The observed was 11.5% with AP cell on, and 8.7% with AP cell off.
Not even close. The damage mitigation is within a couple % of the first test, so it looks like the randomness of the initial sample just made it look like it fit the curve of (1-(100/TotalAccuracy))
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You do not have an accurate way of keeping track of this damage without damage logs. This is based on your observations and opinion. This is not fact.
It's called a pencil and a piece of paper, I just did it, and it is indeed 35% armor ignore.
This is argumentative and irrelevant to the subjects at hand. You are still arguing the intangible definitive's of a hypothetical.
It doesn't matter if my tone is argumentative or not, but it was certainty not irrelevant. How much damage increase a 20% armor debuff has on a target is not a "hypothetical," it's just math. Which you seemed to imply was difficult to understand.
Your recap is you taking my words and putting them into your own context and for your own benefit. This is not what I was saying. Once again, I responded to a similar poster who did not understand the point I was attempting to make. I took this as a mistake on my part and assumed it was my fault for not wording my point as well as I could have. I also took the time to clarify this with a response in my thread. Someting you failed to include.
You faulted Gunnery for having a rotation that was easier to fall into, even if that isn't how it's meant to be played.
I am not making the case that it does provide meaningful damage. My point is, I do not believe that you can prove otherwise with a sufficient degree of accuracy without hard data to back yourself up.
Then what were you even trying to say? You questioned how beneficial it would be to have DOTs that kept on ticking after you lost Line of Sight. But to point out how little damage I believe it is, take a look at the xml data for abilities to see how poorly those DoTs scale.
I did read this. It was math based on the criteria of an immobile target and where ammo regeneration does not come into play, a scenario that does not exist within the game. It did not take into account sustainability, movement, and the effects of various de-buffs that may be on a raid boss or person in PvP at any given time. The math was incomplete.
No, the math was complete for what it was trying to determine. There were two points to be made, both of which I included in the conclusion of my post. But you stopped reading and comprehending when you found the "errors" in my post.
Point 1:
Even in a best case scenario, ie infinite ammo and the ability to chain cast, Assault only gets 30% more HIBs over gunnery, which was roughly 1 insta cast over a 1.5s cast every 15seconds. This runs up against the claim that Assault is more mobile than Gunnery, the only adantage Assault has is in a "scenario that does not exist within the game" which was exactly my point.
Point 2:
Each cast of Charged Bolts/Grav Round increases the ammount of damage that HIB will do in an encounter by roughly the same amount(~6%). The question from this was if it actually increased your total damage by the same amount, which I haven't look into yet. The question is: does replacing Charged Bolts with HIB, which has 30% more crit damage and 30% armor ignore and lower ammo cost, more often have the same increase in total damage as replacing a Grav Round with HIB, at 30% more damage than normal and lower ammo cost. I don't know yet, but Assault has the problem with GCDs that Gunnery doesn't in this example.
Convincing myself I was right about what?
That you could ignore all evidence because it's not "complete" or "there's still things we don't know."
How various cross-class buff's and debuffs affect DPS and how they interact with each other for one. How mobility translates into DPS in a real-raid scenario. The specifics of how other core mechanic like armor penetration works; or if the tooltip is a badly phrased way of referring to armor reduction. These among other variables.
Cross-class buffs? You mean like 5% more aim, cunning, crit, and bonus damage? That's somehow difficult to calculate? Maybe you mean the 15% damage buff from Sentenals, even then it's not something that is difficult to translate into dps.
Cross-class debuffs? The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Gravity Vortex and Sunder Armor, and some tanking talents that increase damage dealt to a target by like 4%. Nothing difficult.
I don't know of any group buffs that increase cast time, or give you more ammo. If there are then there would certainty be some difficult things to consider, but until then it seems like most buffs/debuffs are static % modifiers.
This is an opinion. Yours to be precise. I disagree. I come from the side that believes we need more information to accurately make assertions and believe we have not reached that point yet. I believe anything stated at this point should be portrayed as opinion and speculation at best. You disagree. That's fine. We are of two differing opinions and will most likely never convince each other otherwise.
There's more than enough information out there, and anything else that's needed on the fringes is simple to figure out.
I'm not accusing you of anything. Accusing implies that I think you did something wrong and should be punished. I don't think this at all. The fact is, that regardless of your actual intent may be, you have presented a case that Gunnery is superior. You have not deviated from this line of reasoning and have presented your case from the standing that this is fact. Even if this is not your actual intent, the way you have presented your case conveys this message. So, of course people who disagree with you are going to respond and point out the flaws they see. Refer to my original statement at the top of this post.
Of course I believe it to be fact! Why would I argue something I didn't think was true? Unless my intent was to be sarcastic(it wasn't), I am saying that I think Gunnery is the superior spec in this discussion about whether Gunnery or Assault is the better PvP talent spec.
Pointing out the "flaws" in my response is not having a debate, that's not how you have a good debate. I have yet to see anyone even try to refute my points, while I feel like I've done a sufficient job at refuting theirs.
This seems to be a continuation of the prior comment. My response would be the same as the one above.
I conclude by saying this: I don't want you to stop what your doing. You seem like an intelligent enough person. You just don't have enough evidence to convince me of your point of view at this time.
Seems to fall under the fallacy of unobtainable standards(not the Latin or correct name). The examples you gave for "incomplete" information were subpar and very general.
Here's how Armor Pen works:
((OpponentsArmor * (1 - Armor Reduction)) * (1 - ArmorPen)) - (1 - (100/Accuracy)) for Tech Attacks
((OpponentsArmor * (1 - Armor Reduction)) * (1 - ArmorPen)) for Weapon Attacks
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SAY NO TO DUAL SPEC!!!!!
To begin the option to dual spec was first seen majorly in WoW, and that didn't even happen until 4-5 years after it's initial release. So DON'T expect it anytime soon, especially since there are more major things that need to be fixed.
Yeah, why would Bioware want to take ideas from other successful MMO's and learn from others' mistakes? That's surely not how you get a good product.
Second, dual spec f'ed up WoW anyway, and I don't care to see it happen to SWToR EVER.
It was a nice idea in thought, and honestly I was all for it when it initially came live, but sadly it hurt a majority of the hybrid healer classes. It did this b/c when it happened every1 that had a heal spec they HAD to make it their dual spec, even if they could do a tank or dps spec.
No, no one forced you to make a second spec, you chose/didn't choose to dual spec that way based on who you wanted to play with. If the group of people you play with won't let you play the way you enjoy the game, don't play with them. Most people don't even use it for heal/dps, they use it for PvP/PvE specs.
Third, if u choose a spec and u get tired of it roll a new toon, the story line makes it more fun then the normal WoW grind of the annoying alt.
But I could already respec my Commando to a combat medic, dual spec justs makes it less time consuming. What if I don't want to play a Sage/Scoundrel healer? Should I roll another trooper? 90% of the quests that you do are world quests anyway, so that doesn't make it more interesting.
Finally, why are you so selfish? Just because you don't like it no one else can have it? Because some "evil mean person" asked you to play another spec on your character? Can you come up with a real reason?
Maybe the original sample size wasn't large enough, so the numbers shifted enough to look like it fit the hypothesis.
, even though it's a 35% armor pen. 
The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP
in PvP
Posted
Merc/Commando having the same CC as a Sorc/Sage? Can I please come to your fantasy land? Because that statement is just factually untrue.
Just to compare:
Shield(Insta cast heal, awesome scaling, appliable to others, run speed buff(talented)) -> nothing
aoe knockback(20s cooldown, 8m range), with talents immoblizes for up to 5s, unlimited targets -> aoe knockback(30s(20s talented) cooldown, 4m range(8m talented), with 4s slow, max 5 targets
speed boost -> nothing
30m 6s slow, 12s cooldown -> nothing
30m Ranged Interupt, 4s(6s talented) lockout, 12s cooldown-> nothing
Extrication -> nothing
4s stun 60s cooldown(50s talented), deals damage -> 4s stun 60s cooldown, no damage
3s 50% channeled slow -> nothing or 25 pts in gunnery for 50% channeld slow
force armor aoe sleep(talented) -> stock strike single target knockback(talented)
in combat rez -> nothing
That's a lot of nothing that the other ranged dps/healer class gets. It's also nice that i get to spend talent points to make my abilities have the same effects that sage/sorc get base line. The only thing that commando/mercenary gets base line that sage/sorc doesn't is a 12second 25% damage reduction with a 2 minute cooldown. Your opponent would have to do 12k damage or more in 12seconds for that to be better. The downside is that reactive shield has a 2 minute cooldown, compared to the 20s cooldown on force armor and reactive shield can not be cast on other people.
On armor:
Most dps classes have ~50% armor reduction, or deal elemental/internal damage, so to say that 30% mitigation vs 15% mitigation is meaningful is about as truthful as saying that sorc/sage has better defense due to having twice the base avoidance chance(10% vs 5%).