Kenmuir
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Posts posted by Kenmuir
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Sorcs/Sages are currently the most dominant class in Warzones. Their range, utility, and baseline defense from their Absorption shield create a problematic class in a PvP environment.
Let's take a look at the utility a Sorceror/Sage has with no talent points spent:
Best mitigation ability in the game (Shield)
A 30-yd channeled nuke that applies a constant 50% Slow
AoE Knockback
Short duration 150% Speed boost
6s 50% Slow
Force Dispel
Whirlwind
Ranged Interupt
Extrication - Ability to pull a teammate to current location
Instant 4second stun
Just to compare to the other Ranged DPS/Healer Class(Commando/Mercenary):
Shield(Insta cast heal, awesome scaling, appliable to others, run speed buff(talented)) -> nothing
aoe knockback(20s cooldown, 8m range), with talents immoblizes for up to 5s, unlimited targets -> aoe knockback(30s(20s talented) cooldown, 4m range(8m talented), with 4s slow, max 5 targets
speed boost -> nothing
10m 6s slow -> nothing
10m Ranged Interupt -> nothing
Extrication -> nothing
4s stun 60s cooldown(50s talented), deals damage -> 4s stun 60s cooldown, no damage
3s 50% channeled slow -> nothing or 25 pts in gunnery for 50% channeld slow
force armor aoe knockback(talented) -> stock strike single target knockback(talented)
20% alacrity -> nothing
in combat rez -> nothing
That's a lot of nothing that the other ranged dps/healer class gets. It's also nice that i get to spend talent points to make my abilities have the same effects that sage/sorc get base line. The only thing that commando/mercenary gets base line that sage/sorc doesn't is a 12second 25% damage reduction with a 2 minute cooldown. Your opponent would have to do 12k damage or more in 12seconds for that to be better. The downside is that reactive shield has a 2 minute cooldown, compared to the 20s cooldown on force armor and reactive shield can not be cast on other people.
On armor:
Most dps classes have ~50% armor reduction, plus the penetration from accuracy, or deal elemental/internal damage, so to say that 30% mitigation vs 15% mitigation is meaningful is about as truthful as saying that sorc/sage has better defense due to having twice the base avoidance chance(10% vs 5%).
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This made me laugh so hard. I wonder why people claim the game is not an MMO and lack social interactions. (SPOILER: It's the people not the game)
Also are we talking about flashpoints or raids? There are 4 of you in a flashppoint. 1 is tank, 1 is healer and 2 are dps. If you need a parser to tell you that Leetkilla didn't interrupt when you told him it is his job to interrupt... I think you got bigger issues.
Then why does it matter if it's displayed in a combat log, animation on the screen, sound, or a warm feeling I get in my tummy? If you can see that someone missed the interrupt in an animation, why does it matter that I want to see it in words? Why should you have an advantage in content because of the way the game is designed? If I have a hard time looking at animations because of my poor eye sight, why should I not be allowed to analyze what happen with text? Tis the same information, no?
My view is players got spoiled with WoW on many things. Granted a lot of things from WoW are good but there has been a lot of bad habits forming over there that really do not need to make their way over here.
Personally I love playing a caster in games. I still however find myself playing a Tank in every single MMO I've played including this one. I play with pugs a lot because it's how I gain new friends. I can tell who knows what they're doing and who don't easily. Doesn't take crunching numbers or anything like that.
Again, if you can do it without using numbers, why does it matter that someone else wants to? Why is your way of enjoying the game superior, or why is someone else's way unacceptable?
There's always a-holes in games. You can't avoid them, however from my WoW experience they tend to be more noticeable because they're waving around recount as some kind of sword of truth to justify their point of view.
So?
There's this tip in the loading screen you might want to read:
"Is someone bothering you? Type /ignore to stop seeing what they type." (something along those lines)
Would it be better if they use something else to justify their point of view?(Hint: whatever it is, the evil-meanie will still think it's a good reason.)
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if the meter improves play and makes the game easier to manage then not using them would be a more challenging mode of play.
where you place your health bar is not the same type of addon as recount or dbm
But if the information that the meter shows is already in the game, how does it make any difference?
I thought that if you were a good player that you would be able to see how well everyone else is playing and that only bads need the meter?
Also, moving my health bar is exactly the same type of addon as recount or dbm. That statement shows your lack of understanding of how either addon works, and calls into question your understanding of addons in general.
Is it your contention that dps meters don't make content easier?
I don't think anyone would. They aren't dredging out arcane information hidden away in the server communications, it's taking information already given to you and placing it in a different form.
If placing it in a different form is easier for some people, does that not mean that the current form is easier for other people and thus providing an unfair advantage?
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A good tank doesn't need a dps meter to know what is going on. I didn't realize we had an entire generation of players that have no experience without training wheels.
Actually he usually does, assuming he is attempting challenging content. If you are not targeting a gunnery commando(the class i'm playing right now for example), you have no way of knowing if he is following his priority system to maximize his dps. It is literally impossible without having booth him targeted and the mob targeted to see if the commando is doing his job.
On the other hand, the dps/healer can look at their screen to see if the tank is holding aggro. If he is not holding aggro, the mob will move around and attack other people, something very easy to see.
But in your twisted world, no one should be able to see how well the dps class is doing his job? The graphics on your screen don't change if a dps player doesn't do his job correctly, but the graphics do change for the other two roles, tank(the mob moves around and attacks other people) or healer(people die). Why is the dps role different?
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Groups that don't use meters should then get better loot as they are playing a more challenging game.
I like that idea.
How is the content more challenging for the group without the meter? Does having a dps meter/combat log change the amount of damage the boss deals, how much I heal for, how much damage the tank receives, how much damage I deal?
If you response is: "you can see all of that without the combat log/dps meter" why would it matter if I have one then? Does the content become easier if I place my health bar in the top right of the screen instead of the bottom middle?
"Then why don't you just die?
Because it makes no difference."
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your statement reads a lot like the quoted nonsense in your signature. How can one determine a stranger's skill merely by looking at a arbitrary number?
There's a positive correlation between good gear choices and player skill. If someone has the right choices for gear it is more likely that they know how to play their class well.
Gear Score is no different from compiling an outside the game table of stat balances and comparing it to what you see in the inspect panel. It just has it in the game, and reduces the burden of knowledge for classes you don't play.
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This quest was the first time I went to Torhead to read all of the possible outcomes.
It took me 30 minutes to finally choose the Light side option.
For those who did choose the Dark side option do you see her again?
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The idiot breaking cc's is probably dps. The idiot not interrupting is probably dps too. There you go, now you're kicking everyone out of your groups. I think you should stop pugging until you learn some patience.
The real point is that all of the activities you're kicking people out for are critical and can lead to a wipe where as stated already in this thread, the only measure for a successful dps is that things died.
I asked if you could respond without being a hypocrite, but you couldn't do that
.Tanking and Healing are "critical" but somehow dps isn't. Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
Is a tank successful if he keeps the mob on him a majority of the time?(50%+1)
Is a healer successful if he keeps most of the group alive?
Why is the measurement for DPS soo out of line with what the other players have to meet? Why should no one be allowed to have a good measure on DPS, but excellent measure on the other roles in the group?
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First thing, use the quote system, it's there for a reason.
1. You're wrong on how AP cell works. It does give you 35% armor pen just like Target Lock give you 3% accuracy. It's an additive buff not a multiplicative buff.
Yes. It does give you 35% armor penetration. My point was is that we are not sure how armor penetration, as a mechanic, is implemented in this game. If you do know how it is implemented, please refer a source where you obtained this information.
Was it too hard for you to go out and test this? I'll admit most mobs appear to have like 10% damage reduction, so it might be hard to see, but you just need to use the cell and compare the damage to not having it on.
2.Your understanding of the effects of how armor reduction works is wrong. Going from a 30% damage reduction to 24% damage reduction is not a 6% damage increase. It's an 8.5% damage increase. You go from dealing 70% damage up to 76% damage.
Your discussing the mathematical accuracy of a hypothetical. I specifically state it was a hypothetical. Within a hypothetical where I am creating the variables anything is possible. I was simply using that as an example to show that the mistaken belief some individuals had that 20% armor reduction does not translate into 20% DPS increase. Your above statement appears to confirm my assertion.
It distracts from your argument when the correct math is super easy and right in front of you. But, you refused to do it, appearing to imply that the damage increase from armor pen was more difficult to calculate than it actually is.
3.You're wrong about Gunnery being a rotation system. It's a priority system. At lower levels it might feel like a rotation, but I recommend you go look at some theorycraft to see the priority system for Gunery.
I never state that gunnery must use a rotation.
Right. Here's a recap of what you said:
This comes at no surprise when you consider how much smoother it is to get into a sustainable rotation with Gunnery and many people find AS a bit difficult to sustain a rotation with...compare this to AS where there isn't really a rotation but more of a priority system
Somehow AS has a difficult rotation system, simply hitting HIB instead of Charged Bolts is really hard compared to keeping tract of 5 different buffs that Gunnery has to deal with. You also appeared to imply that gunnery doesn't have a priority system by drawing a contrast to AS which is"more of a priority system" than a rotation.
4. Dot's wont do much for you, considering how few Assault has. A three ammo ability(Incendiary Round), Plasma Cell(16% proc), and Plasma Grenade(the only time you would every use this awful 4 ammo ability is with reserve powercell). I don't know how useful having multiple kinds of attacks will be. But Assault seems to have Weapon Damage Attacks and Elemental Attacks while Gunnery seems to have Kinetic and Weapon Damage attacks.
You assertion here is: "Your DoT's won't do much for you". You provide nothing to back this up mathematically or show exactly how much of AS damage is contributed to our DoT's. If you can provide the math that includes all variable to prove you case; I will concede you this. Until that time I will wait for some more solid evidence.
Here's a deal for you. You provide the math that shows you deal meaningful damage with those dots and I'll point out the errors in your post. Deal?
You won't accept my statement that the few situational DoTs that you do have might not be very useful, why? What do you need? The damage values are on Torhead if you really want to check.
5. The increase on HIB over gunnery is roughly about even to the buff from Charged Barrel, except HIB does less DPS than Charged Bolts so it's a slight ammo gain for dps loss.
You have provided no definitive proof to back up your assertion here. Even the above statement fails to account for variables revolving around high mobility fight where you may not be able to get up all stacks of the Charged Barrel buff.
Your right. I already did this earlier in the thread, that the cooldown reset on Ionic Accelerator is an equivalent damage increase for HIB to Charged Barrel. Although there was the assumption that you had infinite ammo and could chain cast Grav Round/Charged Bolts. The conclusion was that each cast of Grav Round/ Charged Bolts increased the damage you deal with HIB about the same. And in this best case scenario you averaged ~1 HIB cast instead of a Charged Bolts. And it's much more difficult to calculate the damage increase because Charged Bolts scales better, and you might start ammo capping yourself.
Without hard data obtained from combat logs you'll have a hard time convincing me.
But you had an easy time convincing yourself that you were right.
6. Assault most likely will not have better cell management, due to Cell Charger likely being better than Ionic Accelerator. I'll do the math later, but 1 ammo on every ability you use versus a chance to proc a free shot just seems better to me, but I'll look at it later.
I have to agree with you on this one. The only issue with proc based resource regeneration mechanics is that they tend to cause your ammo management to fluxuate constantly. One moment you may be starting to get low on energy and suddenly due to a proc streak you end up having an over abundance.
And AS has the same problem, except it causes GCD problems instead of ammo problems.
7. You state that since we don't have all the facts we can't postulate anything worthwhile. I just disagree with that. Newton didn't have the Laws of Relativity but he still came up with good approximations in his Laws of Motion.
Newton also had enough preliminary data and mathematical genius to begin his theory with a sound bases. I don't believe we do.
Why? What data are we missing? We have all the coefficents for spells, all of the effects for talents, all of the priority systems, what more do we need? The only thing that I can think of off the top of my head is the exact formula for Armor -> damage reduction(mostly because it's logarithmic).
I also think it's silly for anyone on a forum to compare what they are postulating to anything Newton did. Also, on a separate note: There is a lot of Newton's work that is becoming obsolete or proven incorrect. A simple Google search of "Theory of Relativity Wrong" will pop up with countless scientific journals discussing the reasons why.
I think you did not understand the metaphor. Newton certainty didn't have all of the data, hence my example of the Laws of Relativity, but he was still able to come up with good approximation that were accurate for human scale things. Just because on a few fringe cases(the sizes of atoms/universes) his work isn't accurate doesn't mean it wasn't useful and could not be useful.
8.Just because we can't have hard parse of the different damage levels does not mean that one of the specs is not ahead of the other. Being blind doesn't mean that things don't have color.
Right, and color is irrelevant to a blind man. Color is also perceived differently by each individual where as mathematical fact deals in absolutes. I am not quite sure where you were going with that metaphor. I'm not trying to mock you here. I'm legitimately confused.
It was a response to this statement:
Until then, all this debate is rather pointless and players should just pick whichever playstyle they are more comfortable with.
You seem to be implying that just because we "can't figure it out right now" that it doesn't matter. That somehow there isn't a better spec and a weaker spec.
Theorycraft is a looping cycle, you come up with a theory, decide what needs to be changed or accounted for, and then come up with another theory. It's just like every other scientific experiment ever done. Just this time it's done with math, mostly because the game is run on a sequential difference engine(AKA a computer).
The problem is that you are not theorycrafting. You are stating opinions based on incomplete math and attempting to pass it off as fact. Theorcrafting involves taking variables that are known and grounded in fact(that can be backed by a source) and building from there.
You have to start somewhere. I choose to start with simple best case scenarios because they are easier to compute on a napkin for a forum than it is to complete a computer program that maps out the probability trees to calculate average damage. And then after that we can start changing the variables to accommodate more things. But to say I cant start theorycrafting because the first things I did were not complete cases, is just wrong.
We do not have the available information to do this yet.
You accuse me of making statements of fact, but that's all you've done. You haven't even tried to show anything, either by example or math. I've provided several mathematical examples to compare things and all you've done is find "errors" in my posts.
Right now we only can make guesses, form opinions, and that's about it. I have no problem with any of this. What I do have a problem with is when opinion is asserted under the guise of fact.
You must be missing the part where I'm showing my opinion and stating my reasons, because that's what I'm doing, just this time I try to use math to show my side of the argument.
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Fraps is a good dps meter.
What if I already have bad FPS in this game, and running Fraps makes it almost unplayable?
Why should only people who can run fraps without having it impact their game be able to have a dps meter? How is it fair to segregate the community based on the hardware on their computer?
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Plasma grenade + Tech Override?
Point is, most of our damage comes from abilities that ignore line of sight. If we can hit the button while your in LoS, our ability goes off.
However, when you hit Grav Round, I have a good 1.5 seconds where I can LoS you, and negate your damage. All while your taking "insignificant" damage from my dots.
I was legitimately going to answer the remaining quotes, but its 4am and im tired. Tommorow though.
Great job finding the "one thing" that I left out. You really proved my point wrong there. Oh wait, gunnery can also cast Plasma Grenade + tech. But, the point was not about how many moves you have that can deal damage without LoS, it was about how much damage you deal while not in LoS. So please, so me how not "insignificant" that damage is. Unless you aren't sure how to do it.
Oh Ken, What are your thoughts on Secondary stats.
Pretty sure we both know accuracy to 100%, but after?
PvP you need 105% accuracy to push their base defense off the table. Any defense they have over that is stats they don't have in damage or healing. But I also don't know what people are going to do with their stats, so we'll see.
I don't know the avoidance on end game bosses, but I would guess it's a few more percent.
Id venture to say Crit PvE, given the refund for gunnery.
Alacrity looks appealing for PvP, Given that cast time skills do not have a GCD. Meaning if you were to reduce Grav Round to 1s, you could cast 3 Grav rounds in 3 seconds. There's a rumor that Alacrity also speeds up DoT times, though I do not know that for sure.
I don't think anyone knows for sure if Alacrity lowers the GCD. Even if it did, the class is already ammo capped well before we are GCD capped.
I also don't know enough about the damage table right now to say if crit would be better to stack over accuracy.
And it may be me being extremely tired, but I was thinking of messing hybrid Gunnery, just for stupidly high HIB damage. Thoughts?
Wouldn't work, Gunnery is forcused around Grav Round, Assault around Charged Bolts. You don't really gain any thing by dropping the top points from Assault into the middle talents of Gunnery.
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One of the best guilds in the game, Condemned, with just about every world first to date, has a tank with 6500 armor, and 22k hp.
6500 armor = 27% reduction IIRC.
The best tank in the world doesn't have 30%, so we can't really use 30% as our baseline average, can we?
Math Requests:
It would have been nice if you had actually tweaked my math instead of just identifying a mistake and implying everything else is wrong, while demanding that I do all of the work. In debating, we call that "refutation," unfortunately there's a better way to have a debate, "refuting the central point". Which, in case you missed it, was that the 30% extra crit damage doesn't blow away the stacking buff from grav round. I didn't see you show anyone how that statement was false.
Do the math for how often DoT effects pushback abilities of healers, or damage dealers such as gunnery commandos, or sage's. (Survivability/Death Blows?)
I don't think Dots do pushback on abilities, but I'm not 100% on that. I think I remember getting all 3 shots off with Full Auto with DoTs on me, but I could be wrong. And for anything not channeled, a small pushback every 3 seconds on classes with 75%-100% pushback resistance isn't too important because you're most likely already attacking once per GCD(1.5 seconds).
But maybe you can do the math on how much better Assault is than Gunnery based on pushback. Although I do not think you will.
Do the math for how often gunnery will be in position to use knockbacks offensively during WZ's (Teamwork?)
Considering Gunnery has 1 more knockback, can use his knockback 50% more often, and can knock people back farther, I think that Gunnery would be in a better position in most cases to use a knockback offensively.
Do the math on how often your target will LoS you, causing you to lose tons of damage.
Hard to say, but can you show me some math about how your two DoTs, one on a 16% chance on weapon damage, or a 3 ammo ability with an 18 second restart is able to provide meaningful damage to the point that the damage you lose while not having LoS on you tarter is accounted for?
There are a lot more reasons why overall, AS will always beat Gunnery.
And they've yet to be stated with anything other than hyperbole, anecdotes, and assertions of fact, most notably this sentence.
Most notably, good players, will NEVER let a gunnery Commando free cast. Which brings me back to my original post, ignoring the baddie effect.
In order to deal meaningful damage, your Assault Commando also needs to cast his spells. Unless you just want to run around spamming Hammer Shot and thinking to yourself that you're a great help to your team.
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You make a lot of assumptions about someone you don't know. And I don't like people who do that.
One assumption is not the same as a lot. Especially when it's an assumption that you are a human who uses a brain with pattern recognition.
I'm no longer replying to your posts.
Oh boy, i definitely didn't see this one coming.
Where does you argument fall under the levels of good debating? I think it falls under the "ad hominem" or "responding to the tone." It's most certainly not "refuting the central point." Hence it could be say that you are making a bad agrument.
Stew in your anger.
Do you see the hypocrisy of refusing to debate with someone because he made an assumption about you, in this case it was simply that you were human, and then leaving a debate with a one-liner that's an assumption?
But in case you were really concerned, I'm not mad.
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DPS is variable. Not every player or every class is going to do the same amount of DPS. It could be the player, it could be the mechanics of the class, it's variable.
Tanking is variable. Not every player or every class is going to hold the same amount of aggro. It could be the player, it could be the mechanics of the class, it's variable.
Healing is variable. Not every player or every class is going to heal the same amount of damage. It could be the player, it could be the mechanics of the class, it's variable.
Tanks have to hold aggro. Healers have to heal. Tanks and healers have no leeway in their roles.
DPS players have to deal damage, they have no leeway in their roles.
DPS is there to do damage. They might do a whole lot of damage or they might do less damage.
Tanks are there to hold aggro, they might hold a lot or a little.
Healers are there to heal damage, they might heal a lot or a little.
Where did I say that people had to play the game by my rules? In fact, you ask me that several times in your post. Quote where I said that. Show me where I said that. And you really should not tell me what I mean by assuming.
The part where you don't want damage meters because of "these addons will be abused and used to quickly put a divide in to the community." Or when you complain about people being "unfairly" kicked from groups.
In this case, I will agree. I failed to mention enrage mechanics. In that case, yes, DPS is needed to kill the boss before it reaches it's enrage timer and kills the entire party. If a boss does not have an enrage timer, the amount of time it takes to kill the boss isn't really a factor unless it becomes ridiculously long. Usually, only someone who is trying to be disruptive will play in that manner.
The time other people spend in the game doesn't matter? Are you really that selfish or did you not remember that all instances are done with a group, meaning your performance does impact other people.
If the time it takes to kill a boss doesn't matter(the job of the DPS player), does who the boss hits with his damage matter(the job of the Tank player), does the amount of life the group has matter(the job of the Healer)? Why is the DPS different from the other two?
Only if someone is playing with the intention of being disruptive does this situation come about under normal circumstances.
I would argue that most people who deal low dps aren't doing it to be disruptive, especially if they have no way of accurately monitoring they own performance.
And thus the divide begins.
What's the problem? Why shouldn't people be allowed to do that?
Because then only those folk who demand high standards see content. This is EXACTLY how it was during the Burning Crusade expansion on WoW. "We do not THINK you are good enough so you can't go." It was not the developers telling me I could not play the Black Temple. IT. WAS. THE. PLAYERS. SAYING. THAT. And by golly, since I could not run Black Temple by myself, I could not go. And you know what? When I finally was able to run Black Temple some months later, I found that I absolutely could have run that instance and played just fine once I had learned the encounters. But because some "holier-than-thou" player said I could not go, I could not go.
It's the damage meter's fault that you couldn't find a group to run an instance with? But then again, how would you have proved that you could actually do what they were asking you to do without a DPS meter? Pinkie-Promise that you deal 95% of possible damage?
So what if some players don't want to play with you? Why is that a bad thing? Should they have been forced to take you in their group?
I had started to reply to the other portions of your post. But frankly, it would be futile. You appear to be dead set on judging your fellow players and kicking them out if they do not perform up to your expectations. It does not appear you play on my server so I won't have to play the game with you. Enjoy your time in Star Wars.
I can guarantee that you also judge players all of the time but don't realize it. Why shouldn't I be allowed to choose who I associate with, based on any standards I can come up with?
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Except your forgetting all the other variables. Increased Crit chance from AS, 9% damage boost, the higher crit rate the more effect crit damage has, the 15% boost from 4 piece pvp, etc.
You get onto me for math every time I post, but when you post, it's always incomplete math that favors Gunnery. Do the full math if you wanna prove a point.
Fine, I'll do better this time.
30% damage reduction on your target
1000 damage on HIB
25% crit rate
200% crit damage
Those are the base stats. Assault does not have an increased crit chance over Gunnery for HIB.
Average Damage for Gunnery would be, assuming one cast of grav round prior to that:
(((1000 * .75 + .25 *(2000))* .8206)*1.06) = 1087.295
Average Damage for Assault would be, assuming you cast incendiary round prior to that:
(((1000*.75 +.25*2300)*.79)*1.09) = 1140.9575
Max damage for Gunnery would be:
2000 * .8206 *1.06 = 1739.672
Max damage for Assault would be:
2300 * .79 * 1.09 = 1980.53
Assault deals 5% more average damage, but has a 14% higher possible damage.
For a 50% crit rate the numbers become:
Gunnery Average : (((1000 * .5 + .5 *2000)*.8206)*1.06) = 1304.754
Assault Average: (((1000 * .5 + .5 *2300)*.79)*1.09) = 1420.815
Assault deals 9% more average damage.
But, that's with only one Buff of Charged Barrel and 2 Gravity vortexes.
At 25% crit With 2 buffs, Gunnery deals 3% more average damage. Assault deals 8% more max damage.
At 50% crit with 2 buffs , Assault deals 1% more average damage.
The only reason these are so close is because of the armor pen that HIB gets in Assault from high friction bolts. Without it, Gunnery deals almost 10% more damage than Assault.
Any other math you need me to do? Or if you would prefer, show some math yourself that includes everything that you think I'm not including.
Most people seem to be seriously underestimating the effect that the increased armor pen has.
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Only for my clearance, but i thougth critdmg double our normal damage. I.G. :
(200% crit dmg x 100 base dmg) + 100 base dmg = 300 dmg critical
or something i misunderstood?
You misunderstand. When you crit you deal your normal damage plus plus your crit damage multiplier x your normal damage.
So if you have a 100% crit damage multiplier the damage would be:
100 base damage + (100 base damage x 100%) = 200
With a 50% crit damage multiplier the damage would be:
100 base damage + (100 base damage x 50%) = 150
I hope that clears it up for you.
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Hi Kenmuir! The only issue I have with any of the theory you have put forward is that it is based on incomplete math. You have not addressed most of the variables that I put forward earlier in this thread. You can also refer to my own thread entitled "The Current Irrelevance of Spec Comparison" to see other variables that your math is lacking. I also believe you may be over estimating the value of armor piercing rounds. Neither have I seen you take into account issue's involving target swapping or high mobility fights and present a case in mathematical form. I am not saying that you are wrong in your belief that Gunnery is superior in PvP. I am saying that you have not adequately made a case to support your assertions. To be honest: I don't believe any of us(myself included) can definitively say which spec is superior at this time. We need access to more hard data before we can do that. I would love to get your feedback on my thread if the fancy strikes you to read it.
A couple things about your thread:
1. You're wrong on how AP cell works. It does give you 35% armor pen just like Target Lock give you 3% accuracy. It's an additive buff not a multiplicative buff.
2.Your understanding of the effects of how armor reduction works is wrong. Going from a 30% damage reduction to 24% damage reduction is not a 6% damage increase. It's an 8.5% damage increase. You go from dealing 70% damage up to 76% damage.
3. You're wrong about Gunnery being a rotation system. It's a priority system. At lower levels it might feel like a rotation, but I recommend you go look at some theorycraft to see the priority system for Gunery.
4. Dot's wont do much for you, considering how few Assault has. A three ammo ability(Incendiary Round), Plasma Cell(16% proc), and Plasma Grenade(the only time you would every use this awful 4 ammo ability is with reserve powercell). I don't know how useful having multiple kinds of attacks will be. But Assault seems to have Weapon Damage Attacks and Elemental Attacks while Gunnery seems to have Kinetic and Weapon Damage attacks.
5. The increase on HIB over gunnery is roughly about even to the buff from Charged Barrel, except HIB does less DPS than Charged Bolts so it's a slight ammo gain for dps loss.
6. Assault most likely will not have better cell management, due to Cell Charger likely being better than Ionic Accelerator. I'll do the math later, but 1 ammo on every ability you use versus a chance to proc a free shot just seems better to me, but I'll look at it later.
7. You state that since we don't have all the facts we can't postulate anything worthwhile. I just disagree with that. Newton didn't have the Laws of Relativity but he still came up with good approximations in his Laws of Motion.
8.Just because we can't have hard parse of the different damage levels does not mean that one of the specs is not ahead of the other. Being blind doesn't mean that things don't have color.
Theorycraft is a looping cycle, you come up with a theory, decide what needs to be changed or accounted for, and then come up with another theory. It's just like every other scientific experiment ever done. Just this time it's done with math, mostly because the game is run on a sequential difference engine(AKA a computer).
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I think the biggest thing people are forgetting has nothing to do with the slicing nerf. As we get farther away from the release date people are getting higher level. As you get higher the price for getting Class Skills increases very fast. For my last level I had to spend almost 50k credits at level 34 to get all of my skills. I simply don't have the extra money to get the same amount of GTN items I used to.
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From a Biochemists standpoint, the reusables are only usable by you. Yes. This saves you a ton of money while questing that would have went to med packs and stems.
But guess what? My blue grade designs, beneath my purples, often have better effects. A heal over time attatched to the heal. A stem might have damage reduction or an added stat that my reusable would not. They will be in demand simply because they are optimal. And guess what? You don't need Biochem to use them.
This makes me and the other biochemists push our goods to our guild mates or to the market instead of hording them for ourselves for questing and pvp. This is a good thing. At worst we've helped our friends and alts. At best, we've saturated the market so that prices stay sane. Win/Win.
The blues have better effects because you have to reverse engineer the Reusable to get the recipe that has the HOT on it. Just like you had to reverse engineer the green to get the blue that has the HOT on it.
I really wish Bioware would change that.
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That is flat out wrong. You're talking about HIB over an extended period of time, from a pure throughput standpoint.
If you dont see the difference between a passive RNG crit bonus and a charged buff through grav round then I'll just explain it to you. I'm not talking about a charged bolt proc im talking about the highest amount of dmg ONE (i repeat ONE) HIB can achieve. In order to reach a gunnery max output with ONE HIB you need to chage up a stupid buff. In order to reach the highest dmg of ONE HIB in assault u need a crit.
This is passive RNG increase <------ ------>This is a stacking buff
Which do i prefer? the prior. Why? Because most of the time that stacking buff will not be capped and i dont want to wait for a buff to get the most out of a HIB. I'd rather just take more crit dmg. Seriously this is not number calculations this is common sense.
Why does no one else even attempt to do math? do you know the damage difference between the crit damage and the stacking buff?
If you deal 100 damage with HIB, 25% crit rate, 200% crit damage
That's 125 average damage
With 230% crit damage that's a 132.5 average damage. Interestingly enough, that's the same as the 6% damage buff you gain from casting Grav round once, not including the armor pen advantage you have with Gunnery.
Maybe crit damage isn't as good as you thought?
Just in case you wanted to argue that you'd have better burst:
Gunnery: 212 damage on crit
Assault: 230 damage on crit
For an 8% increase on the top end if you only have one Charged Barrel buff(which you would most likely have if you used HIB). At 2 Charged Barrel buffs it becomes a 2.5% damage increase. If you can't figure out a way to use two 1.5second cast time abilities every 15 seconds, you most likely already lost the fight.
And again if you dont see the difference between casting an instant ability to utilize HIB, and using a knockback then casting a grav round then HIB, well i give up. There is a huge difference there, and GCDs mean a lot in this game.
I also never said you had to cast a grav round after the knockback. You could use Demo Round(Incendiary Round), Sticky Grenade(Assault Plastique), Cyro Grenade into HIB, Hammer Shot, or Stock Strike.
YOU'RE APPLYING PVE THEORYCRAFTING TO PVP IT IS NOT THE SAME, SO STOP TRYING TO COMPARE TWO SPECS IN A VACUUM.
You can theorycraft PvP, it just require you to build a bigger decision tree(not fun). But I'm definitely not doing it in a vacuum.
Also, where are the instances where I can do something with Assault that I can't do an equivalent to with Gunnery? Where was your attempt at doing anything resembling math?(Your blind allegiance to increased crit damage over a static buff wasn't well placed)
And I'm not saying 1 is better than the other, I happen to think that way, but if anyone wants to go gunnery thats cool go for it. I do not for two reasons, 1) Incindiary round makes HIB easier to utilize, and 2) AP timed with charged bolt and HIB is 1 GCD less than grav round > HIB > Demo, and that matters to me.
An equivalent comparison would be:
Assault Plastique -> Charged Bolt -> HIB
Sticky Grenade -> Grav Round -> Demo Round -> HIB
The problem is where do you put the Incendiary Round for Assault? You want the burn effect so you can get the 9% damage buff and the reduced ammo for HIB. But you also want to use HIB before Charged Bolts so you can get the chance at a cooldown reset. You either kill your burst for long term damage, or you kill your long term damage for burst. Maybe you have to pray for a 16% proc on AP.(EDIT: opps, from reading the description of Plasma Cell again it looks like it only procs on Weapon Damage, so it couldn't proc on AP) On the other hand, Gunnery doesn't have to do that.
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Because DPS roles are somewhat variable while the role of the tank and the healer have very specific purposes.
DPS roles aren't variable. Hence the Damage Per Second title to it. If you mean to say that CC is something that DPS also does, so can certain healers and tanks. I would assume you would have a problem with a healer that could CC well but couldn't keep the group alive.
I personally believe there is a difference between "enough DPS" and "maximum DPS." If a baseball player could not hit the ball even if he stood four feet from the pitcher but still caught every fly ball hit towards him, I'm not going to kick him off the team. I might suggest he work on his hitting game but I will not just write him off for low hit percentage.
Why should you be allowed to dictate how other players want to set up their own team? Because you would do it one way everyone else has to? What if I want to play with someone who can hit the ball and field well? What if everyone else on the team also wants that? Should we be forced to play by your rules?
Many people claim that low DPS "brings them down." It goes back to the "It took three minutes instead of two minutes forty-five seconds for the mob to die." Does that really make that much of a difference?
In some instances there's this thing called an enrage mechanic. So yes it can make a difference. Before you say enrage mechanics are a bad design, please tell me how you would create an encounter that demanded good play from a DPS class and only a DPS in such a way that the entire group can observe it.
Also, you have to extrapolate that 15 seconds to all of the fights in an instance. With low DPS you can go from a 30 minute instance to a 45 minute instance. Why should the other 3 players have to spend an extra 15 minutes doing an instance they could have done in a shorter amount of time because one of the players isn't conserned about doing his part to the best that the class can?
Does bad tanking "bring the team down"? Does bad healing "bring the team down"? Does bad CC management "bring the team down"? I would say yes to all of those questions, but for some reason you would say that bad DPS doesn't. So what separates the DPS role from the others?
The other problem is that many players set the bar too high. If the maximum DPS a class can do is 9000 and someone is doing 8400, too many players say "Your DPS is bad" and kick that player out. Someone doing 2000 DPS, in my opinion, would be "bad."Why should everyone else be forced to play the way you want? Why is it a problem that a group of players sets the bar high? Why can't a group of players come together and decide that they only want to play with people who meet a certain standard?
But too many are not making that distinction. "My damage meter says you are not doing the same amount of DPS I am doing or what I think it should be so you are not good enough."
What's the problem? People kick tanks from a group that fail to hold aggro. People kick healers from a group that fail to keep the group alive. People kick players who fail at CC management. Why should DPS characters not be held to the same standards?
And what if the player is trying to learn?
Why is he doing it with the time that other players are putting into the game? What if someone doesn't want to play with someone who is learning the Game? Why should they be forced to play with a newbie?
You can read all the internet theory crafting sites and guides you want. Until you get in there and actually PLAY THE GAME, you aren't going to be the best at anything. Hell, I know the rules of football. That doesn't mean I could try out for the Dallas Cowboys and be guarenteed a spot on the team.Then don't try and join a group that has very high standards for a DPS class if you can't do it. But then again you probably don't see the hypocrisy in this post.
If people in this game want a damage meter, then let it read ONLY your numbers. No one elses.
Why should it be private? Is the tank's ability to hold aggro private? Is the healer's ability to keep the group alive private? Is CC management private? Why is DPS the only role that should have their performance obfuscated from the rest of the group and how is that fair to the other players?
Then, if your fellow players want to share their numbers with each other, let them. But believe me when I say that these addons will be abused and used to quickly put a divide in to the community.
Assertion of fact without evidence. The chat is also abused every minute of the game in some place, yet no one is saying it should be removed.
Would the divide be as great as the difference between hardcore guilds that set up out of game combat parsers than casual guilds that don't? I think it would be less, by preventing the ease of use of a manageable combat log(AKA Damage Meters) the difference between Hardcore and casual would become even greater. And IMO you would force the player base into cliques, because you might be less likely to invite someone you don't know especially if you have no way of seeing how well they perform(But only DPS classes if you don't allow Damage Meters, with the other roles in the group I can observe on my screen how well they perform).
So again I'll ask: what separates the DPS role from the rest of the roles in the game?
The next thing you know, Bioware will have to have meetings to discuss whether or not they can justify spending time and resources on designing content that only 10% or less of their player base will see.
Assertion of fact without evidence. What do addons have to do with people seeing content? There are multiple modes of difficulty for each instance. If you want to do the harder instances you should be expected to perform better than in the easier instances.
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The point is, Assault's max out put isnt charged up, or built around stacking abilities.
Except it is? To get the most out of HIB in Assault you have to cast a lot of Charged Bolts, just like Gunnery needs to cast Grav Round to get the most out of HIB. You also need to have a burning target, meaning you either cast Incendiary Round(3 ammo) or Plasma Grenade(4 ammo) or you got lucky with a 16% proc. Sounds like Assault is also charged up and built around stacking abilities.
Did you disagree with anything else I said? Any scenarios that you can come up with where Assault does better than Gunnery with you providing the proof not just anecdotes or assertions of fact?
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Commando is a weak healer, mostly because they can't really heal more than one target at a time. The lack of HOTs, which both the other healers have, lack of CC, both other healers have a movement speed buff and Sage can even cast one on allies, and a lack of an in combat rez, really destroys CM's PvE viablity. And of course the completely unforgiving resource mechanic that Troopers have compared to Scoundrel and especially Sage. And an awful design of a talent tree, it just means everything you do with a Combat Medic you could do much better had you rolled a Scoundrel or Sage.
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For all of you against Damage Meters, can you answer the following questions without being a hypocrite?
Is it elitism when I kick the tank out of my group because he can't hold aggro very well?
Is it elitism when I kick the healer out of my group because he can't heal very well?
Is it elitism when I kick the idiot out of my group because he can't stop breaking CC's?
Is it elitism when I kick the person on interrupt duty because he isn't doing his part?
Why is it elitism when I kick a dps character for not being good at DPS?
Why is DPS the only class that should have his performance obfuscated from the rest of the Group? Without damage meters, the only person who can see the success of a DPS class is the person playing it. How is that fair to the tank, who if he can't hold aggro the mobs run around and it's on everyone's screen, or to the healer, who if he can't heal people start dieing and it's on everyone's screen, or the CC player, who if he can't CC properly it's on everyone's screen?
Why should DPS characters be the only people whose performance is impossible to evaluate by the rest of the group?
And before you say, "did the mob die" please remember that there are at least 4 people in the group, even the tank can deal damage. That's a bad metric because most fights can be done with three healers and a tank, even though it would take a while it's possible. That's like saying that a tank that can only keep aggro for 50%+1 of the time is okay because the boss spends most of his time on the tank. Or like saying a healer that can only keep 3 out of 4 people alive in an encounter is okay because he can keep most of the group alive.
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I'm afraid to continue my Republic character
in PvP
Posted
Roll a Republic Character if you're an avid PvPer who enjoys being outnumbered 3:1.
Roll an Empire Character if you enjoy MMOs, you'll have an easier time creating groups for PvP/PvE, a better AH, Control of Ilum, and everything else that requires other people.
With the coming of same faction Warzones, there's no reason not to roll Empire, you get all of the benefits and none of the problems of low population.