You're right, I'm in an awkward position of not having first hand information with a geared level 50 sniper. I have played with one in my old guild quite a bit though who was a beast, and he used to brag about how fast he could drop sorcs all the time. I also have my character at level 40... where people wear different gear... yes... but through bolster it's kept relatively close together. Snipers have massive burst potential. between explosive probe, ambush, and follow through alone. That damage has some set-up to it, but it's huge damage coming through in one global.

With regards to Ambush vs Railshot: The 1.5 second cast time on Ambush means that the sniper can't move during that 1.5 seconds, and there's a brief window to apply a stun to interrupt it... it doesn't mean that railshot is more damaging though because of GCD. Railshot requires them to be on fire... Ambush needs to be set-up with a snipe Basically, what it boils down to is railshot has higher mobility and ignores armor while Ambush hits for a little bit harder in general. I'd say you're right, and Railshot is better than Ambush but at the end of the day it's just one move. Snipers still have the better survivability, and utility at the end of the day while PTs Have slightly higher mobility and do way better damage on tanks. Equal but different classes are equal but different. Snipers are capable of this exact burst on a target if they are granted the gift of RNG. I can't speak to any of the other classes. I've seen high burst, but never actually played one, or with a good one, as much as I have sniper.

I do feel bad for sorcs, with the new TTKs they really do get the short end of the stick. Couldn't most classes do this to a sorc though? I'm pretty sure my sniper (granted, it's a lower level bracket) could probably drop a sorc in around 7 seconds if he had an adrenal and got the RNG that the pyro did in that log. Seems to me that most single target burst classes could do that. Maybe 1 extra global. Am I wrong? *edit* Just caught up and realized you were already discussing that question, lawl. As you were!

You make my head hurt. I'm not trying to convince you anymore because you're displaying a clear lack of understanding of either class you're trying to argue with me over. I know more about snipers than you, and I don't even have a level 50 one which leads me to believe that you probably haven't even played one. The misinformation you're posting about PTs leads me to believe that you probably don't have one of those eithers. Both of these assumptions, also lead me to believe that you don't care to actually learn or you would have started those characters by now to try to figure them out a little better. That's a lot of assumptions on my part, and maybe I'm wrong. I'm giving you the best case scenario though. You wrote an essay though, filled with intentionally misleading, hyperbolic descriptions of moves and omitting defensive cooldowns that didn't fit into your mold, or mock-up of PTs being OP. On top of that, you're arguing about 1v1 situations which no one who's any good would actually give a flying crap about. I will leave you with this though, because it's the only solid point you acutally make that isn't exaggerated: In 10 seconds, in a 1v1 fight PTs have more Effective health, given all CDs are active. You're right, they do. There are a couple important things you aren't factoring in: - it's a 1v1 fight, this game is balanced around team play - 10 seconds is a very short fight, when factoring in team support - Sorcs are probably the weakest class in the game right now And most importantly: -Utility, Utility, Utility. Throughout all of your posts you focus on EHP and completely disregard any escape mechanisms, or utility that these classes bring to the table. In this small point you completely eliminated factoring into the fight that sorcs have force speed and an instant mezz. In those 2 lines of your entire Page long, single spaced post there are 3 minor problems with your logic and grasp on the game, and one HUGE problem where you omitted information that didn't fit in with your line narrative of "PTs are OP" and you wonder why I won't go through your post line by line and point out every spot you're wrong? It's not worth it because I know that you either won't listen/ignore me or if you do listen some other equally uninformed ******* will just come up and take your place spamming uninformed garbage all over the forums. That's why I'm not wasting my time. Although I just did. So I guess you win.

Who's talking about 1v1s, and who gives a **** about 1v1s? Anyway, it doesn't matter. There's so much misinformation, hyperbole, and obvious omission of facts in your post I feel like I'm trying to argue with my wife. Maybe someone else with more patience than me will explain to you why you're wrong, or you could just flip back and read through this exact arguement earlier where people who actually have snipers and PTs proved you wrong.

For starters, he's actually on your side arguing that PTs are OP and that's why he rolled one. Heavy armor doesn't add much extra armor unless you're in tank stance, which is what people repeatedly have to explain. It's a damage reduction of 35%, which is marginally better than medium armor. Then, considering how little armor actually matters heavy armor is a marginal perk at best. Our shield doesn't have a short CD, it's on the same CD as everyone else (Between 2 and 3 minutes) If I hear kolto overload mentioned one more time as a survivability CD, my eyes may explode. I'm not even going to go into why that CD is terrible because if you can't figure it out on your own nothing else I'm going to say here will help because you don't have a solid grasp of game mechanics. I'm not going to touch the other classes you're talking about because I wouldn't consider myself to have logged enough play time on them to feel qualified to comment (maybe you should take a page from that book) but I will say that snipers have better survivability than PTs. They have over twice as many survivability CDs and a mechanic built into their class that makes them immune to gap closers. My sniper is only level 40 (I've played with stellar snipers at level 50 on my other classes) and my sniper has infinitely more options at his disposal to handle unwanted attention and survival. The truth is, as people keep trying to explain, Pyrotechs get a paultry 1 defensive CD and that's their weakness. If you're too stupid to exploit that weakness, that's on you.

A big problem is the fractured player base into such small chunks. I happen to think that most of the classes are relatively balanced, but the player base is so small now on each server that I'm sure it's just one or two good players running around decimating on that server. That's why there's such a long list of "OP" classes right now. Keep in mind that since 1.2 nothing has changed, and I've seen complaints about Vanguards, Mauraders, Tanksins, Snipers, Ops (both healers and DPS), and Sorc utility. That's a pretty sizable chunk of the population, and I remember right after 1.2 there was all that hubub about Merc burst. Anyway, it's my theory that this is what's causing a whole bunch of hyperbole. For instance, I happen to not think that Pyrotech burst is even that out of line. It seems pretty balanced compared to the utility I get on the other classes I've played at 50, and the total lack of mobility. On the other hand, my server has a handful of people who even bother to que anymore and I almost never get games anymore. It's totally possible that I've just never run into a good powertech, and I'm not that good at powertech (I've been playing it since release though... so I'm at least well informed). On the other hand, maybe the opposite is true on your server. I think the game is just in such a shambles that it's pretty hard to tell what the hell is even going on anymore with class balance.

Because scoring doesn't make big numbers show up.

A good sniper, and a decent Operative who gets the opener should beat Powertechs too. Tanksins also make that list.

I've never had a clean, even, 1v1 sniper vs maurader on my sniper. I can tell you though that maurader's defensive CDs are pretty well designed for combating marksman snipers (which is the ambush KB). Obfuscate, Undying rage, Saber barrier, and Camo are all really effective against snipers. Not to mention that a Sniper won't be able to use all those tools you mentioned because of resolve. At least not the whole time. I've heard that snipers are very tough for mauraders and, as I said, I've never fought one 1v1 but it seems like a maurader would be far from dead in the water

Well, I suppose that's something. I missed that post.

Yeah! I noticed this too! I was surprised because there was never any snipers, and I was looking forward to being unique again (I was coming from my Tanksin). Now every WZ has like 3 snipers, with like 5-6 ops total! It's funny because the pubs are always force users so it turns into a big game of tech vs force. I can only speak for myself, but I'm rolling a sniper because it's the last basic class on imp side I haven't tried yet and sniper apealed to the lore-nerd in me more.

That's what everyone was telling me when the game first came out too. "The servers are big enough, we don't need cross server PVP" The thing is, you always need it. It's stupid to fragment your player base through artificial barriers that you erect just for the hell of it. It makes the game feel smaller, and it eliminates any sense of real competition. By fragmenting the player pools you open the doors to a whole bunch of new problems that wouldn't otherwise be there, just for the sake of some pseudo community that maybe 5% of the total player base actually gives a **** about. They clearly have no idea what they're doing, and they're just repeating WoW's initial mistake with it's PVP when it got off the ground. Learn from history BW, or you're going to repeat it, and this game can't afford any more massive population drops. At least Blizzard was reactive enough, and had so little competition that the sad state of their PVP ques didn't kill the game. If BW doesn't smell the coffee beans sometime in the next few months here the game is going to be in serious trouble (more so than it is now)

True that, but PTs have even less survivability so I guess we'll see where BW is willing to draw the line.

Unless you have a healer. Have you ever played actual premade on premade serious pvp in this game? And on your utility, for starters Dodge is your counter to railshot. You can't complain about how OP railshot is and then claim that your dodge is ****. Those are totally contradictory sentiments. Your shield might be crap, but it's on a short CD and it requires next to nothing to use. Entrench, is possibly one of the most powerful moves snipers have. It lets you channel your moves which you claim is such a major setback. Yes, you lose your instant snipe procs for one rotation but you gain total immunity to anything that can disrupt your channels. The complete ignorance, or possible intentional short selling, of the perks of your own class are pretty mind blowing here. PTs are great, but they certainly aren't better than snipers. I don't have a level 50 sniper, but I've played enough to get a good grasp on their mechanics, and I've played with some seriously sick ones. My head hurts so I'm leaving this thread beforeI have an aneurism, but I'm going to leave you with two thoughts: 1) The people in this thread who agree with you have been saying absolutely silly ****, like Kolto Overload is OP. They're stupid as hell, and you're better than that. 2) You should pick up other classes and try them out to learn their weaknesses, or maybe just take the word of other powertechs if you don't want to/ have the time to reroll. No one knows how to beat us more than we do. Try what we suggest and see if it works for you.

Half? No way, but we don't out burst classes by anything close to 50%. Maybe like 10%, and you bet your balls I'd trade 10-15% of my railshot damage for a cleanse. You're drasticly undervaluing your own utility and survivability. Also, I'm not sure I understand why Agents are complaining about PTs since they rip through PTs like a tin can. Their lack of survivability, and ability to escape you should put them on the top of your target list. This whole thread just wreaks of people who would rather just complain than take the time to learn the actual mechanics behind the classes they don't understand. Pick up a PT and start to play it so you can begin to understand the limitations of the class and how to exploit them. They're there, if you understand the game.

That 3 minute cooldown isn't really good for anything except for shutting down white damage dealers so it's not really a waste, so much as it's design. Also, aside from being a cybertech, I'm all ears on how to stun them through the whole duration. I'm not trying to argue that there's nothing a PT can do, I'm arguing that everyone here makes it sound like there's nothing the other classes can do, and they are all at the mercy of whatever powertech is in the WZ. The reality is, The damage is the one strength of powertech, and they have significant weaknesses (no mobility, or survivability). People cry about classes being OP and UP because they don't understand class roles in this game. Start broadening your horizons and playing other classes to see where you fit in and how to exploit the weaknesses of PTs and Mauraders. I realize how silly it is for me to be posting this because no one is going to listen me, but what the hell I already typed it all so I'll post anyway.

You're also deliberately not mentioning the total lack of survivability CDs compared to the other classes. Also, railshot is the bread and butter of PT dps. Outside of the occasional rocket punch, and Thermal det, the damage comes from railshot. If you spam FB like a tard you over-heat to fast too be viable in long term fights.

Eh, I tend to avoid tanks on my PT because of the nasty shield generator, but you're right the armor isn't really an issue and there's so much $@#%ing accuracy on our gear that railshot almost never misses (at least it's good for something I guess). Still the shield generator is kind of a big deal. On my sniper I avoid tanks too, they're a pain in the ***. I'm not lethality on him though, so yeah, all white damage comin out.

Cleanse, and any move that mitigates white damage mitigates railshot. As soon as I get some utility as a full pyrotech you can talk about lumping PTs in with the other classes. They trade ease of use for utility.

Your point about the Combustable procs isn't entirely true. If you use railshot while combustable is already on them then it reapplies the dot, and reapplies the snare. Still, you're right, only idiots get kited by powertechs. Idiots and people who have over-extended.

They can, and I have on my PT. I actually do it all the time. However, if the other person has the slightest clue what they're doing the PT won't be able to kite. Degauss is one snare removal in the fight. If you ever get kited as a maurader, you're not very good, and should work on your opener. Also, as far as survivability goes, all the classes you mentioned that all crumple under focus fire have around 4x as many escape/survival tools as powertechs. We have one defensive cooldown and that's it. My sniper at level 40 has more utility and survivability than my powertech (if he's pyro). You're not going to win the survivability arguement, that's just silly. Powertechs have crazy burst because of time delay moves in combination with their hard hitting moves. IM -> TD -> FB > RS is no different than Legshot > EP > Ambush > Followthrough (especially if you have a proc for ambush). Actually, the Sniper's rotation is Burstier and their target can't move for the entirety of the combo. People need to stop crying and learn the strengths and weaknesses of their class.

Well, the game is too far gone at this point. The PVP scene is dead and I view this as a major factor. Were I in charge, for 1.3 I would have but transfers on the back burner in the interest of Cross server ques and pushed out Ranked WZs the second it was ready. Once you get the Ranked WZ ladder functioning like it should, then it will be OK to have premades vs pugs in practice because that's more like a scrimmage, so the priority system works fine. So basically, what they're doing is fine but only because the game is pretty much dead and the only people who remain are the ones who want the game to be ressurected. Were I a dev and I was on release I would have had cross server PVP ques on release with premades only facing other premades, and pugs only facing other pugs. I also would have allowed for 8 man ques. Of course, I'm not in their shoes so maybe they know something I don't. Because, this seems like it would have been a no brainer, and was actually what I've been calling for since day one even before the game started to die.

This

Right, but if practice is where people are going to learn strats, then you would it would always have more value for them to go into practice, because they'd be facing other premades who are also learning. People aren't using it to learn right now, they're using it to farm and that's pretty obvious. Hell, even I did that for a while. It's easy, why not? I mean it's boring, and pretty much ruins the game because people being steam rolled are bored, and the people winning are bored, but you get free pixels so why not?