hehe. It would appear that you do not pvp. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but we should perhaps rest on this. Our rep has stated he'll be submitting questions shortly.

I apologize, for the question you quoted, I had intended it as a pve question. To prove a point about how the disassembly and revamp of Enraged Defense (same as Rampage), would benefit both pvp and pve, I had simply switched the original question domains. Honestly when I've tanked in pvp, the heal (with or without Endure Pain activated), is really good. I even have tanking videos displaying how I relied on the self-heal religiously. So for clarification, in my opinion, Enraged Defence is not useless for Immortal pvp at all. The point was "where do we go" with the specific permissions and limitations of the "new" enraged defense. I had suggested when feated then activated in Immortal, the perk would be sharing the "Rule of Two" speed buff to both tank and guarded targets. This would be coupled with the heal. Asking for unique applications of enraged defense when feated in the seperate trees was our original request. It pains me to say that this may be a fruitless endeavour, but I look forward to the developer's response regarding Enraged defense.

As it stands, we have limited burst in pvp. I decided to run a few warzones on the jug tonight, take a break from leveling. Each reg match was pretty much just me playing objectives, while the others went derping. Having said that, the numbers vengeance can put out, will always pale in comparison to rage....always. I remember it was pretty sweet with the double proc power relics, for I stacked full crit, and relied on the power boost. (warzones were also ridiculous at that point). Vengeance is great with leading the charge and capatilizing on the cc immunity. You then can pick a target, and apply pressure. As it stands(competitively speaking), said target will either vanish, speed away, OR laugh with a shield, ignoring you. I think the survivability granted with this spec in a pvp scenario, is best served in duels, or 1 vs 1 encounters within warzones. Is that mild supremecy in durability worthy over Rage? Currently, vengeance spec is my favorite for huttball, well aside from the obvious tank spec. Immortal rules in all aplications currently. A closer look at the focus fire strats that more groups are utilizing within warzones, will reveal that either a vengeance or a rage juggernaut, will both die very easily. The threat from a rage jug is always more severe than a vengeance one. I've played vengeance exclusively for months now. I've tested different power/crit ratios, they all turn out the same. I'm not sure I can discern much more from Vengeance in it's current state, for everything it can do...Rage spec can do better. It also appears that there are no changes in effect for juggernaut gameplay with 2.4. That said, were you expecting changes to invigorate the spec? If so...you all had better find other another "outlet" for your "vengeance". I have three freaking jugs. It's time to enjoy some other classes. ciao

Planned Obsolescence at its finest.

hehe. It wasn't a retort, nor was it an attempt to pull parses out of your arse. You could have included numbers with your original statement. I actually liked your suggestion of shifting the emphasis of vengeance bleeds. Currently they are considered a *mild* threat when all stacked during a force choke. The rest of the time, in pvp, your opponents don't even know they're there.

Not to discredit your claim, but at face value your statement is highly subjective. There could have been many instances of poor performance from teammates, afk's, etc. That said, I'm sure you're a remarkable player. The real problem in this scenario would be "why bring a marauder when jugs do more damage". Once again, we're not talking about a gift bestowed upon you from the RNG gods in one raid. You're referring to your personal skills coupled with really good gear. There is no other solution. P.s. Why did they remove the crit chance from vicious throw, yet allow it to proc above 30%? In pvp a non crit vicious throw, hits like vicious slash..../meh. With the penalties to crit, we all suffer within vengeance game play. I eagerly await the developer's responses to these concerns.

...guys. Imagine the day vengeance jugs parse higher than marauders. *crickets* I don't know how many times I've posted in the last couple weeks. I've compiled excellent suggestions(which evolved quite nicely), and have coordinated most of the trenchwork. Perhaps some people don't like my prose or refuse to read it lol. The point is, we can not keep asking for more dps more dps. Instead we can ask for more reliance and protection from rng. All this talk for offensive cooldowns, alacrity boosts, I'll warrant will bring disappointment with the response. I say we stick to enraged defense, ask to examine the vengeance tree, And consider a realistic utility. IF we received enhanced "jug specific" debuff capabilities, this would assist the group alot, and would not threaten the developers to rewrite the game. Let's not get carried away.

A "hey wussup bud" from me in red.

Yeah, I do miss the carnage groove at times. If I want to play rage I'll hop on my jug. That said, the action from Juyo is really freaking fun. I think it's an excellent compliment to a group, in tandem with another marauder of a different spec.

Edit Report Post Quote Quote: Originally Posted by UncleOst View Post PVP Question: - There have been some concerns with the current applications of "Enraged Defense". Immortal tanks perceive it as useless, Vengeance Jugs absolutely love it, and Rage Jugs are indifferent. We realize you've linked the existing abilities for our benefit generically speaking. However we the Jug community, would like to see more specific applications of this ability, intrinsic to each tree. Additionally, we would ask for separate "threat dumps". Once again, the Vengeance tree has a beautiful synergy with Enraged Defense within its spec. Would you create unique and featable options for Enraged Defense within the Rage and Immortal trees? PVE Question: - We are very happy with our current Jug pve experience within Rage and Immortal. There is a common concern for the heavy reliance on RNG within the Vengeance tree. Specifically, we the Jug community have voiced viable solutions for the current ability "Rampage" and "Seething Hatred". We are asking you to please take a closer look at the way these abilities operate. Would you consider examining some of our suggestions? Our wish is for a bridge to be built between the pve and pvp functionality with this spec. General Question - Aside from the problems previously expressed with graphical errors/jug bugs, we would ask for "skilled utility". What we mean by that is we want more synergies between the respective trees. Would it be possible to include stackable debuffs allowable only through separate specs? We want to have special "jug specific" utilities that empower the entire team when applied in concert. Instead of constantly asking for more blind dps, we instead ask for options to debuff our targets more effectively. We jugs like to work for our damage potential. Would there be possibilities for an enhanced Juggernaut utility such as this? aargh.. I switched the the pve and pvp domains.. Do you see how trivial they were? I also added one sentence regarding a separate threat dump request. I think Enalis' post would be better served in the lore section, for it literally describes the juggernaut condition. That said, It is really too long. I am going to rest on this. If you all refuse my questions above, in light of our Rep's disappearance, I would then herald SSfish. SSfish was the runner up, and I'd rather place faith into his command of where we go next. I personally thank you Enalis, but I apologize as well. SSFISH. You reading this? ...reposted for importance.

aargh.. I switched the the pve and pvp domains.. Do you see how trivial they were? I also added one sentence regarding a separate threat dump request. I think Enalis' post would be better served in the lore section, for it literally describes the juggernaut condition. That said, It is really too long. I am going to rest on this. If you all refuse my questions above, in light of our Rep's disappearance, I would then herald SSfish. SSfish was the runner up, and I'd rather place faith into his command of where we go next. I personally thank you Enalis, but I apologize as well. SSFISH. You reading this?

In addition we'll need a few more votes to support it. Give it more time for people to examine.

I must say I've enjoyed the last pages of this discussion. Ultimately, shall we concede that perhaps in the current state of pve main tanking, there are certain classes that should tackle certain parts of NiM progression? There are many abilities that shadow/assassins posses, that should command their roles within said group. The same applies to the other classes. Is this the developer's intended description as to how they see the game? If it were not for the important differences within the class abilities respectively, we would all share the exact same tools, and our sabres would simply look different. We don't want that. With 2.4 on the way, we'll see how their new "vision" unfolds.

I fixed a few grammatical errors and spelling. I also tweaked a few phrases while additionally respecting the original train of thought you presented. Anyone else think we should press the "submit" button on ^this version?

I've stated already that we can switch the domains as we see fit. Ultimately an improvement in one field will benefit the other. 1. Pve question: Vengeance concerns/ suggestions 2. Pvp question: Enraged Defense concerns/ suggestions 3. General question: Group utilities? (Enhanced cross-spec debuff improvements/alacrity...insert something sweet). Someone with an eloquent command of the English language, and a flair for the dramatic, can you please step up and re-phrase these. LoL, please stick to the mutually agreed formats I've pointed above. The problem is, we keep stumbling around trying to decide what we want. This delay is actually hurting us. We need our elected fearless leaders to step up and assume their roles. If I was Rep, we'd have had our responses by now. In all fairness, I actually prefer the involvement we've had here together with this discussion. It has strengthened our community and enhanced our awareness of our class. We can't relent with our pursuit.

True. Also important to note, is why aren't there objective based 4mans? Having a random death match first, then logging on to a mini version of huttball should remain. Having a series of death matches seems silly.

Nobody's disagreeing with you, I'm not at least. I've stated in other threads already how the 4man options they have in store should only compliment what we have now.. It's obvious.

...go suck a fart out of a cow's arse.

The fail is strong with this one.

This was a good read. Despite my disapproval of limited options for groups, the changes as stated will be good. Hell, it's not like my guild was ever big enough for ranked anyways, but nonetheless ranked *was* an expression about a guild's ability to prevail against another.

His decisions were responsible for saving millions of lives. His "tactics" threatened the Sith to the point that they were forced to retreat back to Ruusan for the eventual finality to the war. There is more to Hoth than just the final battles on said planet.

LoooooooL Studying as much about your opponent as you can makes sense. Your emphasis on this in Thrawn's case is hilarious. It's great trivia, nothing more. I'm not disputing Thrawn as a tactician.

...my gawd. I decided to try Juyo ( annihilation ) last night, feating all points into the tree ( at level 41 ). Guy please don't laugh at me, for I know some have you been marauders since beta and I'm just starting the class. Point is thus far JUYO RULES!!!!! Man I tell ya, I'm having a blast with this spec and would like to hear a couple comments regarding this spec in lvl 55 pvp. More to the point, is there anyone who still plays this form in level 55 warzones? Dayum I like this form.

Hmm, perhaps his opponents were truly that formidable. It's unfair to not reflect on how the force battles were fought at that time.

hehe, Simply viewed as another example of how experience trumped the odds...nothing more. He relied on classic battle formation knowledge, infused with his timed intuition of how he felt his oppoents would engage. I'll admit. Thrawn's approach to art was pretty cool "study time". If your desire to read my words is that great, I'll re-consider on your behalf. lol