Tumri
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Posts posted by Tumri
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Snip
As I said those are just some basic builds I put together in 5 minutes. My point in the other post still stands though. You don't have to sacrifice a significant amount of DPS to pick up the CC talents. The spreadsheet DPS the other posted used was a result of specs that were horrifically bad(worse than mine for sure). The spread is never 1300 to 1k DPS if you don't just skip every DPS talent for no reason. Using the specs I posted(which can be modified since they're basic specs that might not even be optimized) you get around 1270 DPS on simcraft. I'm not sure if that's what the other poster used but it seems likely since his 0/13/27 number matches Simcraft.
I don't agree with your second build though. Backlash is the most powerful CC talent in the entire game and skipping it in a hybrid that uses the lightning tree would be bad.
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Wrath full of angry little kids? Man I gotta roll a scoundrel on your server.
You have no argument so you're bringing my guild(which has NOTHING to do with my forum threads) into it? Pathetic.
Just let it go. No nerf is coming."Don't nerf me bro!"
If you're confident that they're not going to do anything then why do you care?
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How does your guild feel about you raging on the forums trying to get a class nerfed. Not very good I imagine.
From what I've seen most of them don't read the forums or don't care.
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2 long threads really boil down to you wearing full pve rakata gear and complaining that you can't easily kill someone in pvp gear. You already stated that you wear no pvp gear and your guild website shows you guys heavily in pve. Stick to pve and leave those wanting to pvp, to pvp in peace.
How will you respond when your supporters start attacking your marauder class for their huge dps and stealth?
Except for the fact that content is incredibly easy in PvE and we end up clearing everything in 2 days. Those of us that PvP usually always top WZs. In full 4-man premades we don't lose 90% of the time against other pre-mades despite using crappy random compositions while up against 3x Sorcerer 1x Juggernaut ball carrying machine teams.
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If you will look at the thread's history you'll see that discussions have been slowing down as the people who are debunking the ignorance of this thread have given up after saying the same thing for the 50th time.
No one can compete with the stamina this troll seems to be capable of, except maybe a gold farmer or blizzard employee.
Erm.. you JUST said you gave up reading the whole thread in one of your other posts. Now you're claiming to have followed the thread in it's entirety?
There are a lot of Sorcerers that have had their arguments disproven and have since stopped trying. Just read the thread.
If you'd bother posting something relevant and actually provide an argument then I'd be happy to reply.
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And yet 822 posts is not really earth shattering now is it? Less than 0.2% of the player base agree with you. Want to quote more numbers?
"less than 0.2% of the player base"
Yes lets all make up random statistics.
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You just owned your own thread. Nce job!
Plenty of people have lit up the candle for ya and shown there are no dragons
Except many people here have provided solid evidence. That little analogy doesn't apply when there are tons and tons of posts showing both mathematical and analytical evidence to support the idea that the Sorcerer AC is overpowered when played with CC heavy hybrid builds.
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The whining has yet to fill two threads in two months. I'm underwhelmed.
Note the date of the original thread's first post is 2/05/12
This discussion is less than 2 weeks old. The original thread surpassed the 1000 post limit by reaching 1207 total posts(it doesn't auto-lock at 1k. a moderator does it manually). The second incarnation is at 822 posts as of right now. That's basically 2 maxed threads in under 2 weeks.
If you look at the thread's history you'll see that discussions has been slowing down as more and more Sorcerer defenders have left the discussion as their arguments have been proven false. The mass majority of those supporting the idea of toning down Sorcerer CC are still active.
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I'll clarify. You suck at pvp. The fact this thread only has 80 or so pages in the MONTH that it has been going should make you embarrassed enough to hush your whining. 1.7 million player base and there's perhaps 60 or so people crying about sorcs yet you necro and piss and moan to get your way. Clear enough for ya?
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=271581
The original thread reached the post threshold and was moved into a new thread. You missed the bright gold moderator post right below my original post.
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I don't need to clarify for you, you are living it.
This is a perfect example of the deliberate obtuseness that you have been spewing since the beginning of this thread.
I suppose you will come back with something like yadda yadda go back and read. I don't need to. I was following this thread from the beginning, chuckling under my breath all the way, and I go away for a few days and you are still here wallowing in your insistance that red is blue. I don't need to go back and read the edited version.
Good for you, it takes trolls like you to make devs ruin their own MMO. GG
Two people are in a dark room.
P1: Whoa it's dark. I wonder what's really in here.
P2: There's a bunch of dragons dude.
P1: Really? Is there any way you can prove that?
P2: No but I said so and therefore it must be true.
P1: Hmm.. I don't think so.
You're acting like P2. "I said so and therefore it must be true" is the argument you're peddling right now. The OP provides evidence for my viewpoint. Others in this thread have stated their opinions and provided evidence and information to support it. You refuse to provide any evidence or support your viewpoint in any way. That's ignorance(or stubbornness depending on how you look at it).
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They're going to need to compensate the pure DPS ACs in some way. I fully expected healer and DPS gear to be different. Currently you just need to respec heals on most DPS/Heal ACs since they basically use the same stats. There's no "spirit" or healer stat in this game so DPS/Heal ACs get to do both without even having to gear for it. It's unfair to say the least.
WoW's dual spec didn't screw pure DPS as hard because people needed to have a different set for healing.
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trainwreck of ignorance and misinformation
Please clarify.
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lol, It looks like someone got owned and decided to complain about it.
Ok
Also thank you for posting that guide. I re-spec my talent points to reflect the very same thing's you are complaining about in PVP and now I own.
Isn't this contradictory to what you JUST typed a second ago in the same post?I don't get it. You basically type out a sentence that says "L2P". Then you go on to say you used the builds I claimed were OP and then started doing far better than you previously were.
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I'm going to reiterate what I posted in the first thread with some more specific updates on what people have said in both threads... My original post on this can be found here at the bottom of the page.
Assumptions I'm using for math:
- Willpower: 1737
- Force Power + Power: 1442
- Crit/Surge/Alacrity: 410/153/346 (values from the spreadsheet BiS.)
- DPS numbers are an "ideal" fight
- Rotations are also "ideal"
A quick note too about the specs I'm using (I'm not going to go into full TK because I know absolutely nothing about TK past the 4th tier):
First - a standard 3/7/31 build for balance dps.
Second - a standard 0/13/28 build for hybrid dps.
Third - "full cc" build (the dreaded 0/20/21).
This isn't the build I linked in the OP. Yes you could use a build like this but you can pick up ALL of the CC talents with any of the builds I linked while not dropping your DPS this low. Here's the Sage version. Please note that "Psychokinesis" appears to be bugged on TORHead and doesn't reflect it's Sorcerer counterpart.
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600Zfc0MdRrZcrcRsMk.1
Fourth - a dps/cc build (0/19/22).
This is a bit more like the specs I linked. I still don't fully agree with putting points for a 1% self heal but like I said in the OP the build is flexible and allows for customization.
And last, a Tidal Force dps build (0/19/22).
Again you're taking unnecessary points in talents that aren't nearly as useful.
Up front - here are the updated dps values for these builds:
3/7/31 - 1275 dps
0/13/28 - 1326 (1268 for above build. 1326 build is this one AFAIK.)
0/20/21 (cc) - 1063
0/19/22 (dps) - 1216
0/19/22 (tidal force)- 1216
So in the build closest to(but not exactly) to one of the builds I posted was a loss of about 8-9% DPS from your highest standstill DPS build. I'd wager that the difference would be even lower if you used the three exact specs I linked.[/color=red]
(Note - a full TK build reports as 1285 dps.)
I should also note to maximize for the 1326 build, you must be getting a full 18 second Weakened Mind, as well as forgo the instant force lift and 20% buff to your bubble. More on that later.
The OP alleges this list of utilities (#4 missing in original):
**** I'm going to add the 2 sec root from Sever Force.
Not all of these abilities are available at once. Also, I think we can dispense with #14 because the capacity for self-healing is shared among 3/8 classes in the game (sage, commando, scoundrel), not to mention Guarded By The Force, which is essentially a self-heal given their dots' healing.
More notes on bubble. The values above are incorrect. The general thought at the moment is that trauma and expertise do not affect bubble value. The long and short of this is that expertise could not affect the value if trauma also did not (because expertise healing is trauma-ignore, not more throughput). This would make bubble values too low for anyone but BiS geared to get the 2.5k heal medal for a bubble.
Current estimates of bubble values are between about 3.3 and 3.7k. The values from the BiS assumptions in the spreadsheet linked above yield a 3310 bubble. Popping a 380 power trinket with those would give you a 3564 bubble.
Now, the meat and potatoes...
First, it's of critical importance to note that no Sage build can take advantage of all of the above utilities. In fact, without severely gimping one's dps, no Sage build can take advantage of most of them.
Second, the two most-complained about talents (the aoe mez and aoe root) are not that useful. The aoe mez is good for one thing - saving the Sage's butt. It does that pretty well, but in doing so, harms the rest of the team because it builds lots of resolve. The aoe root is pretty good in some circumstances, but because it is tied to a knockback, it will not work on targets with full resolve.
Third, many of the utilities mentioned don't apply to all classes. Roots and knockbacks are useless against ranged classes who can stand still and nuke you and who never come into knockback range. Almost without exclusion, the Sage's utility talents *being complained about here* are useful against melee - the Sage's natural sworn enemy.
Fourth, the OP ignores the balancing game that one must take to have access to all this utility, but still put out decent damage. This point is where I focus most attention.
Looking above, you can see the dps values for the different specs. Note that the two cc-heavy specs fall well short of full dps specs (by 20% and 8.3% respectively). Considering the immense loss of the pure cc spec, I'm not really sure there is much point in talking about it - it's a cc machine, nothing else.That said, the fact that a 0/19/22 dps spec retains the cc ability merits consideration.I believe the points I made above concerning the type of target on which the gained cc is useful stand. Sages need tools to escape melee, plain and simple. A good marauder or operative is a real pain in the rear to escape from alive. Personally, I find marauders to be more of a pain than operatives.That said, taking the two aoe cc talents from the TK tree away from Sages probably won't hurt them much. But it probably won't help the enemy teams much either. The root from knockback is useful, yes. The aoe mez is useful to the Sage, but harms the team overall.The question remains then, whether hybrid specs really are that overpowered. The answer, I believe, is - not really. Were they in fact vastly overpowered, I would expect to see a Sage doing 1.5-2x the damage of other classes, and this just is not the case. I will admit that the skill:damage ratio on a sage has a much lower curve than other classes, but after a certain point, skilled players of other classes are on par.
On a related note - the discrepancy in DPS seems to widen with gear, so for the majority of players, a hybrid spec is not going to pull as far ahead in pure dps numbers.
Also, I'd like to briefly dispel the notion that Sages "mash one button" and faceroll. Whoever started this idea is a complete moron. In a 15-sec rotation, a hybrid Sage will use 6 or 7 different abilities depending on procs. For a full Balance Sage, it's 7. Sages do not stand there and mash TK Throw - doing so is a HUGE dps loss.
Last but certainly not least - some info about my Sage:
I currently use a 0/13/28 build, and I enjoy the playstyle very much, especially when Imps are dumb and gather in groups for me. That said, I play the more survivable version of the 13/28 build, picking up the self-heal, instant force lift, and bubble buff and taking the lower dps. I'm seriously considering switching to a full Balance build, if for no other reason than to show the nubs out there that hybrids are not really doing crazy damage like everyone claims.
Sorry for the wall of text.
TL;DR : No dps sage worth their salt would ever be able to access all of the available cc talents. Many of them don't actually apply to non-melee classes. And the dps difference is not that big for hybrid/full-31.
A lot of what you're saying is true for the builds that YOU used. My main is not a Sorcerer but even I was able to come up with some example builds that were better while not skipping CC. I don't know if you intentionally used different builds to prove your point or if you overlooked part of the OP. Could you please take a look at the following builds and see how they stack up in whatever spreadsheet you're using? I would use simcraft but from what I've heard it's still not fully accurate and I don't want to use a spreadsheet that is different from yours since that might produce inaccuracies or spark debate over whether the spreadsheet is accurate.
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRrZcrcRsMk.1 - The ORIGINAL 20/21 build I linked. It's not even the best combination since it was just an example I threw together in 10 seconds while writing the OP.
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRbZcrcRsMkM.1 - A DoT dependent version of the build that gains DPS but loses out on 20s Force Sprint.
In the two builds above "Lightning Storm" may be substituted with a talent of your choice. I felt that it provided PvP utility by allowing more Chain Lightnings at times when people piled up but it's an optional talent.
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRrhZcMcRsMz.1 - A Bursty variant that sacrifices sustained DPS for more damage from Chain Lightning.
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Note that NONE of these builds give up any of the core CC talents and the talents that do get swapped in/out of based on preference are "Lightning Effusion" and "Suppression". The 10s CD reduction talent for Electrocute is only taken to reach the higher tier of Madness and that is why the 3rd build doesn't take it. It's a minor CD reduction in any case.
- Willpower: 1737
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Looks like you got a promotion Tumri. Way to go on leading the charge, guess I'll have to hold you personally responsible if they nerf my precious Sorcerer! =P
Wow I had no idea they were doing this. Edited the OP a bit to accommodate other discussions being redirected.
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I also think disallowing Force Shield from contributing to healing medals would be a step in the right direction as well. Credit toward protection medals would be appropriate, but as it stands now, it gives the impression that sages/sorcerers are out-healing everything under the sun.
Dumb idea because that would be an enormous buff to their medal gains. No class in the game can get DPS+Healing+Protection medals. A lot of them can only get DPS medals. If you made bubbles count as protection they could just get the healing medals through hardcast healing and then spam bubble a few times for protection medals. I know it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand but I just thought I'd mention how dumb this change would be. Sorcerers would be getting 15 medals a game.
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Here's the build Aidank is most likely referring to:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRrZcrcRsMk.1
This is another variation that pretty much the same thing but without reliance on Deathmark DoTs and has a bit more RNG burst with Forked Lightning.
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201ZfcbMdRbhZcMcRsMz.1
Here's another slight variation for those that want to Tab-DoT more.
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRbZcrcRsMkM.1
You can pretty much modify the build however you want as long as you take the core talents and you'll do exceptionally well. The 0/20/21 is the one I found to be most popular though.
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Actually I do also play a sniper, powertech and just started a sentinel, and sorcs go down faster then any other class because they have less hp lower armor and their only shield stops about 3.5k max.
For example, snipers get a AOE 20% damage reduction for any team members in it for 15 seconds? As well as a shield, as well as evasion, as well as a grenade that reduces the enemys accuracy by 45% for 6 seconds and blocks them going into cover aswell as more armor. All that vs a 3.5k max shield.
As others have mentioned already those abilities have extensive cooldowns. A Sniper/Gunslinger or another class with good defensive cooldowns will have them up 1/5 fights at best. Assuming a Sorcerer magically lost all of his CC and escape abilities the bubble puts him on par with higher armor classes and with the advantage of not being demolished by high internal/elemental damage. Another advantage of bubble is that the lower the total damage taken in 20s is the more effective it is in comparison to better armor.
If you actually compare a heavy armor wearer to a sorcerer with both of them attempting to keep the enemy at bay when possible the Sorcerer will pull ahead simply because a much larger percentage of all of the damage that their target inflicts will be mitigated by bubble. The math I used was for a worst-case scenario where the Sorcerer gets beat on for an extended period of time and doesn't get a second bubble off. If I were to account for the the Sorcerer kiting the enemy the heavy armor wearer would pale in comparison.
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That means YOU CC YOURSELF in that moment, because you just nuked the sage/sorc and his/her shield was destroyed BY YOU.
Click shield off manually and you have a 3s AoE mezz on a 20 second cooldown. In addition to this if you shield someone else and THEY click off the shield the 3s AoE mezz activates. If you had a pre-made of 4 you could quite literally keep an entire team CC'd for 12-15 seconds. Read the OP and you'll know this stuff. This is about the 20th time I've had to point out to a Sorcerer how his own talents/abilities work. Read the OP.
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I still love how the OP balances how long classes will last in a defensive situation by only including the sorcs defensive ability. No need to include any other classes defensive ability like a snipers 20% aoe damage reduction, evasion, and a shield. Or hell lets ignore the BH/Trooper shields, or the maras 99% damage reduction, or the assassins resistance/vanish which reduces all damage by 100% indefinitely.
None of those abilities have a 100% uptime. I also said that bubble was not overpowered. I said it made up for their lighter armor by providing a constant 3.5k damage absorption per 20 seconds.
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A lot of this is true. Bioware, like many mmo developers before them, made melee a liability. In PvP they're outclassed in both CC and utility while lacking the ability to hit people from 30 yards away in safety. In PvE raid bosses have mechanics that ONLY effect melee. The fabricator droid for example will put bombs on melee and if someone in the pile doesn't run out then all of them lost half their health. Ranged just spread out. I wouldn't mind so much if it was just that melee had to watch out for more stuff on the ground but a lot of raid damage in this game is AoE that's targeted on someone.
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They're not supposed to but they do. Sunders, Tracer Missiles, etc. can bring a raid boss or player down to 0 armor by stacking together.
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Right but going past 100% doesn't give them negative armor so it's the same thing.
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Honestly they need to make Gore have 100% uptime and just balance our DPS from there. The fact that the spec has no PvP utility would at least be made up for by being effective at killing tanks. They could even nerf the percentage of armor pen that Gore grants to 50% and that would still be fine. It's absolutely terrible to have a spec rely on a 6 second armor penetration buff for so much of it's damage. It's even dumber to allow a bug slip through that allows 100% armor penetration for everyone on bosses.
Another thing that bugs me is that Bloodfrenzy isn't refreshed by Ataru Procs. I understand they tried to make it easier to code by attaching the +1 rage gain to the end of the buff but having it fall off in the middle of Gore is just a bad unavoidable DPS loss.
Overall they just need to fix the bugs and make the spec less reliant on a short duration buff. Right now it's fun to play but clunky when trying to maximize DPS and unappealing in terms of DPS.
The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP
in PvP
Posted
You mean the problematic 0/20/21(and other similar variants).