Tumri
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Posts posted by Tumri
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"Gimp themselves" doesn't make it OP, how do you read people saying its OP by saying its actually a useless spec? Using theoretical/paper doll figures doesn't disprove anything. In a typical fight you will always use your instas, and rarely the spell that roots you into place, so more damage on your instas will be a huge increase to REAL damage in pvp. You keep saying the 30% only affects dot crits, the 30% is most important on death field. Death field which isnt affected by the enemy armor. In a game where you spend most of your time running away, and in most fights you will use at least 2 death fields, it becomes far more useful then a 3 second mez having increased damage on it.
In fact by not using dots at all, in hopes to mez the enemy for 3 seconds, your gimping your damage a huge amount, the knockback snare and sprint are for meelee range targets.
My main argument is, most classes have more CC then they can even use, your so called OP spec has wastage and your trying to gimp a class's utilities that are used in other builds by making a theoretically "OP" spec that nobody even uses because its garbage in reality but looks good on paper.
Again this circular reasoning is tiring. If the spec is gimped why do you care if it's nerfed? From my perspective I see someone basically saying "DON'T NERF MY PRECIOUSSS"[in a Golum voice].
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Firstly nobody agreed it was overpowered, you and some fanboy did. We all say to get that one extra utility that your so called OP spec has you gimp yourself.
In a pvp situation you actually lose more, because the 30% surge reduction on one of your two main mobile damage dealers is a huge reduction in damage. You also lose the ability to use your better forms of CC by giving them a max resolve bar for a tiny 3 second unpredictable mez that breaks whenever you do damage.
And the reason people care why its nerfed is because if they nerf everything that people (and by people I mean like one or two loud mouth whiners) QQ about then more ******* will make QQ posts on the forum about every ability, and eventually people will be running around using autoatks only rooted in place so nobody can run anywhere. Not to mention it would gimp the 31 point talents, and if the abilities were moved up the tree it would gimp the sorc lightning leveling spec.
1. Go back a few pages. When asked how excessive CC was balanced the collective Sorc defense basically said "They gimp themselves to gain the CC" and "They need it to counteract their squishyness".
2. Both the "gimp themselves" and the "squishy" part were disproven. Sorcerers are one of the sturdiest classes in the game due to bubble. Even you agreed that the bubble and/or double bubble at the very least puts them on par with the more tanky DPS. The "gimp themselves" part was disproven by the fact that they lose barely any DPS at all for the enormous amount of CC. You lose out on DoT crits. DoT crits aren't where the majority of your damage will be coming from in a PvP scenario. A smart Sorcerer won't even put up DoTs unless he's confident that he won't need his "break on damage" CCs to last their full duration.
3. This circular argument has been going on and on despite proof being put on the original post. Honestly I don't understand how you can take yourselves seriously when you argue "they're squishy" and then collectively back off after proof is shown and then argue "they gimp themselves to get the cc" only to go back to the "they're squishy" defense when you're proven wrong again.
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A few pages back it was agreed upon that the specs I posted have excessive CC but you(and some others) claimed that to gain that excessive overpowered amount of CC you have to gimp yourself. Spreadsheets showed this to be about a ~100 dps loss when compared to the full dps 0/13/28 build and about ~50 dps loss compared to full 31-point specs. This is stand still DPS and you don't actually lose that much in an actual PvP situation.
Tsubodia if Sorcs have to gimp themselves to play either a 0/18/23 or 0/23/18 build then why do you care if it's nerfed? Answer this question instead of deflecting into another tangent like last time please.
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97 pages of rants don't make you correct.
Except for the fact that I used math, comparative analysis, and practical scenarios to prove my point over the course of over 200 pages of discussion. I also trimmed down my original list of complaints as I was proven wrong. What's left is stuff that hasn't been proven to be balanced in the slightest. If debate=rant to you then I don't know how you could ever function in a real world setting where people argue, debate, and quarrel all the time using facts and analysis to fight for what they believe is correct.
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The thing is everyone thinks the bubble protects 4k+, it doesn't. The bubble is 3-3.5k on a well geared player. The aoe mez is half as long as every other classes aoe mez, and is meelee range only. The only thing it does is give sorcs time to react to being jumped by meelee.
My bubble math in the OP uses a 3.5k bubble. That's typical of any Sorc with decent gear(and by decent I don't mean champion gear with the default mods. I mean remodded good gear).
The AoE mezz is half the duration of a Marauder AoE mezz but with a 4.5s or 20s cooldown as opposed to a 1.5 minute cooldown. You're looking at the duration(AoE mezz rarely lasts the full duration anyways) and totally ignoring the fact that it's essentially spammable over a semi-lengthy battle.
Sorcerers have a lot of CC. That's the problem. You can't compare a single stun and say "X class has the same thing" because "X class" doesn't have all of the other CC that Sorcerers have. Sorcerers simply have too much all at once.
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If your best argument is "Well you [as a former WoW glad ranked player by the way] did really well in some huttball matches against some keyboard turning Sorcerers that didn't even know they had an ability called Force Slow and didn't understand that Whirlwind worked on players so you must be totally wrong about everything!" then I'm afraid you're beyond the reach of reasoning.
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IF Sorc/sages didn't have the sprint and the utility they have every class would wipe the floor with them.
Sprint and their baseline utility already make them the most capable kiters in the game. They don't need the extra hybrid spec talented CC. It's too much on one player.
Saying "A sorcerer will win unless you catch them off guard" is contradictory to the idea that they're balanced. A balanced class does not automatically win unless caught off guard.
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^96 pages in this thread and another 120ish pages in the last.
Thats a complete overstatement with no facts to back it up.If people actually start writing actual facts of why sorcs are op then they might have a decent argument.
All i ever see is that sorcs can kill me when all their abilities are up. Well no *********** **** ofc a sorc if going to win if all of their cds are up. Why the **** are you chasing a sorc/sage to begin with?
The classes are more balanced in this game than WoW and people still complain. Anyone who has faced a frost mage in wow wouldn't be complaining about sorc/sages.
So you're saying they auto-win with their cooldowns up. Their longest CD is 60 seconds. You're saying they get a free kill with minimal effort every 60 seconds. This is in addition to the free turret time they get while someone isn't focusing on killing them.
WoW's Frost Mage was squishy when caught and died if there wasn't a healer around. SWTOR's Sorcerer is like a SPriest with self-healing/bubbles that doesn't cause them to go OOM quickly. They also have CC that's pretty much on par with what Frost Mages had but with less CC immunity(no blink).
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Inquisitors are fine! LTP!
But there are tons of them
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/85/sorcct.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/sorc2.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/sorc3a.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/204/sorc4.jpg/
There are tons of them because they're the best PvP class by far.
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]They are free kil for mara/sentinel AND few other ACs/specs, they cant kill any healer spec, they are easiest class to shut down, they dont have ANY burst.... and yet baddies cry nerf lol. Aint happening.
You're ignoring the other 100 times I(and other posters) have shown why Sorcerers using hybrid CC specs have too much control. It's like you have amnesia and just ignore every post before yours. You've been proven wrong many times in this thread.
1. They aren't a free kill unless they don't use their abilities. Read through past arguments.
2. They can do as well as most others. The most effective healer killers are those with interrupts on 6s talented CDs(Marauders and Powertechs). Other than those two everyone else is about even in terms of being able to solo a healer. Soloing healers isn't efficient regardless. Tunneling a healer alone is stupid when you could kill them a lot faster with two people and move on.
3. They are by far one of the most difficult classes to shut down if they bother to actually use their excessive CC.
4. They have burst equivalent to most others. You're comparing a Sorcerer's burst to Mercenaries, Operatives, and Assassins and two of those are dependent on being able to burst. Mercenary damage is better than Sorcerer damage but they don't have the excessive control(and they're the rDPS with the second best PvP toolkit).
5. The "baddie" part has been proven wrong so many times that the argument actually flipped a few times and people started saying that if I had no problems killing bad Sorcerers then I shouldn't be asking for a nerf to their excessive CC.
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16 man needs to stay more difficult/hardcore when compared to 8 man. It's a proven and effective model. More hardcore players are willing to go through the hassle of getting additional players to complete more difficult content. Less hardcore players stick to the lower player settings.
This tier the 8 man content was severely undertuned and I hope that the next patch makes it at least of comparable difficulty to 16 man while still being slightly easier with emphasis on slightly. I also hope that they make all Nightmare content a lot more difficult because this first tier wasn't even all that hard on 16 man(just much more difficult than 8 man comparatively) and that's what's driving hardcore players away from this game.
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Watchman isn't the top DPS in the game right now. Powertechs(Vanguards), Mercenaries(Commando), and Snipers(Gunslingers) do more sustained DPS on a single target according to current theorycraft and in-game testing.
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Yeah thats why they HAD to put in a LFR easy mode............
Also WOTLK was the higest subs in the history of the game. They lost alot of subs with cata. Why? See above.
Wrath was successful because normal modes were able to be pugged and heroic modes were difficult enough to keep people playing. Cataclysm's normal modes weren't nearly as puggable and their heroic modes were about the same difficulty(Heroic25 Rag was actually very good/hard). They took away the "easy mode" option is all. SWTOR has an easy(normal) mode, a normal(hard) mode, and a hard(nightmare) mode. They covered the casual mode players. They need to cover the hardcore mode players. Nightmare mode is not difficult enough.
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Currently 8-man on Nightmare difficulty is a joke. I feel that 16m, while FAR more difficult than 8m, is still way too easy on Nightmare. I'm hoping that EV/KP are the "Naxx" of this game's pre-expansion raid cycle. I sincerely hope they make 1.2 have an Ulduar type epic raid that has very difficult and well thought out content.
Killing the end boss of a raid on Nightmare should be a real accomplishment that only a tiny portion of the population can achieve before the next tier. It's not a question of catering to the hardcore players it's a question of challenging players with what is supposed to be the most difficult content.
While I think 8m should be more difficult than the "fluffy kitten mode" it currently is I don't think it should be harder than 16m. 8m should be slightly less difficult than 16m.
@Whoever said "8 man is currently harder than 16 man" - No it isn't.
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Would you quit SWTOR if they improved ilum as such?
I would go back to WoW and then go to GW2 so yes. I PvE mainly but if they made PvP an advanced gambling system that didn't revolve around skill then I would just quit. I can get decent PvE in other games as well and if SWTOR can't deliver PvP that's decent then I don't see a point in staying. This is coming from a hardcore endgame focused player that is currently planning on playing SWTOR for at least the next 2-3 years despite terrible raiding content and a lack of polish on most of the end game content. If they implemented something like this that would make me change my stance from "They'll improve the game over time to make it great." to "Pfft SWTOR what a joke."
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Point still stands. It's a terrible PvP system.
Edit: Last time I checked that game revolved around money. I played it when I was eight years old and had a few party hats and "rares". I logged in around '07 and the entire point of the game was basically grinding out money to PvP or grinding out money to get rares. In SWTOR this would basically mean PvP would turn into something you grind money for just to get the gear to lose. It's not a good system in the slightest. Runescape PvP also isn't fun. It's basically a more complicated gambling system since it's simple click and wait "combat"(If you can even call it that).
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Short Answer:
No.
/thread
Long Answer:
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Runescape is a terrible game with pathetic subscription numbers(The majority of which are BOTs with fake credit cards). Their combat system and PvP is beyond terrible. I honestly think this is your first "Real" MMO outside of Runescape and as a result you're thinking these are good ideas. They're not.
If you want Runescape PvP then play Runescape.
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Commando is a broken class or not finished or created in a bad way with no vision. Assault is a poor clone of Vanguard Assault system that works in a very strange way. We don't have Ion Pulse to burn our target with 100% chance, to proc HIB we need Full auto channel or CB channel use. (Ion pulse, stock in vanguard (all instant)). No defense abilities almost. RS is just too short and 25% of damage reduction is nothing to save your life from melee. Conc charge is supposed to work against melee but why the hell BW gave melee classes abilities which allow not to be pushed back? If you conc charge successfuly, melees just charge in you again stuning and cast breaking. I prefered not to use it against melee at all. Great design BW! Created an antimelee ability that makes only worse against the melees.
The whole spam mechanic is just stupid. You can compare us with snipers and their style, but we're not snipers! There musn't be spam in any class!!! Do i look a lancebot? I don't want to.
Not long ago i tried to play vanguard dps. I was shocked how good he is. Riot, aoe stun, harpoon, hib proc after stockstrike and ion pulse and the greatest thing is that i changed a bit my build and now run full AS spec with Ion Cell and shield in off hand. It's just a perfect pvp fighter! I'm 47 lvl now and will take 50 for sure and keep playing vanguard in future. After PVPing all day long with my vanguard i loged with my main Gunnery 64 valor lvl (7 BM items) and felt sooo uncomfortable standing at one place all the time only because the class is intended to stand like an idiot with a big gun having NO chance against melees and spam my only nice ability GRAV GRAV GRAV....oh lol. Melees are :rofling fighting against us! It's just a shame. Btw now i /lol too when fight against mercs. BW u're great class designers!
So because Powertechs get an anti-knockback/cc ability and Juggernauts get 4 seconds of KB immunity after a charge you decide to just sit there and not use one of your best defensive abilities? Then you cry on the forums about being an "unfinished" class despite being arguably the second best PvP AC(and arguably the best PvE DPS AC) in the game?
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Can somebody please post this awesome build... I'm almost rank 60 and in full champion gear I still get rolf stomped by every class one on one... I seem to die in a heartbeat to an equally geared opponent.
So much so that I’ve re-rolled. Sorcs really need a buff to survivability imo. Every other class seems to get massive crits.. largest I’ve had so far is 3.1k with trinkets stims etc
Read the Original Post.
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The only flaw with the class is we'll be sub par for raid comps once dual-spec comes out. People use basically the same gear to dps and heal and being pure DPS AC that's melee puts us in a bad position. They need to make us the top PvE DPS to compensate for our lack of versitility(much like there's STILL a 5% difference between pures and hybrids in WoW). Currently we're approximately in the middle in terms of DPS across the board.
The little usability bugs(?) with things like Smash should be fixed. Your other suggestions are a bit much I think.
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I played alot of sorc in other mmo.. BUT in SWTOR SORC SUCKS BIG TIME!!!!!
they are weak, dps sucks, healing need items to get it to good just good enough, cant use em in PVP...
trollface.jpg
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If a Sorcerer can't admit his class is at least the best in the game and at least a little overpowered he/she is either bad, in denial, or using the "DON'T NERF ME BRO" defense.
Sorcerers have so much CC and utility that no other class even beings to compare. It's ridiculous because on a level 24 Sorcerer missing more than half the utility I feel like I have so many more options for every situation when compared with my Marauder. Once I get the overpowered talented CC with Wrath/CL I'll be unstoppable. Last night I was able to get around 350k damage on my Sorcerer at 24. You can argue that this is because of bolster but the damage of all my spells is still about 20-30% less than any geared 50 and I'm using nearly all single target abilities at this level(no force storm, CL, or decent tab-dot damage). It's stupid how well anyone with half a brain can do on them.
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It's hero engine. I have an i7 920 @ 4.1Ghz/1600Mhz 6GB/GTX560/Windows 7(64bit) and I get 7 FPS in Ilum. It has nothing to do with your system and everything to do with the fact that the the way hero engine renders textures on characters is horrifically inefficient. The result is massive gamebreaking lag whenever you're around a lot of people. This is especially true if said people are moving around and doing stuff.
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we do? why dont you enlighten us on this toolkit then
You are an AC that is basically immune to stealthers. http://www.torhead.com/ability/d4EEmVj/stealth-scan
You have one of the best stuns in the game(equivalent to the best not slightly weaker than the best). http://www.torhead.com/ability/9GX16Xs/electro-dart
You have a good dispel. http://www.torhead.com/ability/8RCfiRU/cure
You have a mezz. http://www.torhead.com/ability/7J2uswp/concussion-missile
Your knockback is second only to a talented Sorcerer knockback and in some situations is even better. http://www.torhead.com/ability/dK8kTM6/jet-boost
You have a stacking damage reduction shield that gives you 10% damage reduction just by you spamming tracer missile. Combined with heavy armor you're very tanky.
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You also have the most faceroll class in the entire game. You can literally do as well as a master assassin/marauder/other by spamming Tracer Missile and using other damage abilities at random. You also have incredible burst by simply spamming Tracer Missile and using Unload and Heatseeker Missiles when you feel like it.
The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP
in PvP
Posted · Edited by Tumri
I provided evidence to support my claim. Provide a defensible argument to support yours.
Don't make me laugh. Interrupts in this game are a joke. They lock you out of a SINGLE spell for 4 seconds. Only a terrible player is effected greatly by that. Lots of terrible players around though since just the other day someone was saying if they had their Force Lightning interrupted they had NOTHING to use for the next 2 GCDs and as a result of this thinking they typically just stood there not using ANYTHING until their Force Lightning was back.