I was commenting on your statement that the dev time should be spent on new planets and stories. So unless Corellia took you a month to finish, or you were progressing on Kaon under siege for 6 weeks I stand by my statement. Content like that is time consuming to develop as well, and doesnt have the shelf life of a tough raid. It's an excuse that's constantly made around here and it doesn't hold up. Casual content is burned through quickly, even by casuals.

Logical fallacy considering you're the one advocating everyone gets their special feeling from a videogame. We're asking for a challenge that we may or may not complete.

Which without a reasonable challenge to it will be consumed within a week or 2 by everyone, and we'll be right back where we are now. Not logging on with nothing to do.

I get what you're saying, but I don't know if thats entirely accurate either. Many of the "casual" players I come across don't want to savor content. They flip if they can't clear it instantly. "It's too hard" or "I already have a job" are common complaints I hear if someone dares suggest things be in this game that require time and skill to accomplish. I remember when I first got to 70 towards the end of BC in wow (late comer). I saw a guy from Deus Vox, who were at the time US #1 in all his Sunwell gear. I wanted that. I chased it. I never made it there, but by God it kept me logging in trying to get better. And I did get better. That's the unseen problem in all this. When everything is easy, you socially engineer your community to seek the path of least resistance. The game loses it's epic feel. I don't want to pretend my character is a bad *** because he killed some boss that's tough in lore, I want to feel like a good player because I did something that was difficult in execution. When everything is easy that sense of accomplishment goes with it.

I really don't like the use of hardcore and casually. I raid 9 hours per week during progression (3 hours now that it's all on farm) and aside from leveling my alt don't log on much. I've cleared everything in 16 man nightmare including the speed runs. I did it all in less than a month. I would wager I play significantly less than many people who call themselves casual. What this boils down to is some people want to be challenged, others want everything handed to them. I've said it before and I'll say it again. You may not realize it, but you WANT a mountain to climb. It's what keeps you coming back. When you have nothing to shoot for you stop logging in.

Catalyst on Helm of Graush completes 16 man unyielding run tonight in 83 minutes

no I'm taking Gabe at his word when the question is about 16's being harder and he answers "not intended" instead of "this isn't the case"

So if this goes live what does it mean for Serenity? Back to 8 mans? I refuse to split our group up, but the idea of running gimp mode isn't too appealing.

Bioware might as well get rid of 16's altogether if this happens. What will be the point to running them? Like a challenge? Nope Logistics? Nope Better or more loot? Nope Prestige? Nope Competition? Nope Guilds that took the time to organize 16's didn't deal with the extra hassle because they wanted faceroll. They did it because they wanted a challenge. I guarantee if this happens the majority of 16 man guilds will fracture. I was talking to some people in another 16 man nightmare guild today and they are already losing raiders back to WoW. I think we all knew the first tier would be iffy but honestly these design decisions aren't giving me a lot of hope.

What kind of margin of error was there for KP? Did you wipe at all or just go straight through?

I'm not, was just curious is all

We did the Infernal run on Monday, and it wasn't too bad but I'm curious as to who has done Karraga speed runs on 16. I've looked at top guilds websites and none of them mention doing them, but that doesnt mean they weren't done.

Catalyst- Helm of Graush (pvp empire) finished all nightmare 16 content tonight downing karraga. http://www.swtorcatalyst.com

so what you're telling me is you farmed 2-3 weeks vs of rakata gear in 8 before going back to 16. That MIGHT account for some of the ease you perceive.

How are guilds that have downed it dealing with the marking missle/rail shot combo. It is just wrecking people. The missile hits for 8k, then the rail shot hits for 12k in a space of about 2 seconds.

I'll try this monday, but I want to point out if you look through these forums you're solution is one of about a dozen that people swear "this is the one, this works every time". Even in this thread people can't agree if it's all S then N for every wheel, or NSSN

This. It hits very, very hard but you can dictate who it hits. We have a video of our kill. I die partway through as the offtank after getting it (which was planned). If you notice the same person gets it every time the rest of the fight. He stands off to the side of the boss.

We did this the other night twice when we had some spare time (16m hard) and it failed both times. So either your solution doesnt work for 16, or it's bugged. The fact that if you read the forums there's about a dozen "solutions" says that none of them are. You've been getting lucky, or as I said you're doing it in 8 and that doesnt work in 16.

We got them when we were messing around in 8 man hard/nm but ever since we switched to 16 man hard modes we havent seen any.

Normal isn't a big deal. Aside from the trash being starkly different the rest feels about the same. In Hard it starts to feel very, very different imo. Again, aside from a few stand out issues (we dont get double health in 16 bw) I don't feel hard mode 16 is TOO hard, just much, much harder than 8 for the same stuff.

It's been mentioned as an aside in many threads, but I'd like the chance to call attention to the issue here, and hopefully we can get a comment on the matter. As far as I know it hasn't been said what their goal is regarding the 2 sizes. Is the difficulty of 16 man intended compared to 8? (not that it's too hard mind you). For 8 mans to have the same rewards with such a drastic reduction in challenge is a little silly. Everything from boss ability damage to enrage timers to trash is far more difficult in 16. It's frustrating seeing the speed run titles when you can roffle the trash mobs in 8, but in 16 if you dont have kick rotations on 4 different mobs in a 6 mob pull you have a high chance of wiping. Again, just wondering if this is intended. If it is, you need to seriously up the reward for taking the trouble to run 16, or the majority of the raiders aren't even going to mess with it (this is already the case) If it's not, then can we expect massive nerfs to 16? I'd rather them buff 8 if I had my druthers, but I'd take a little smoothing of the differences even if it meant a nerf to 16.

see my above post.

16 man was like this before the patch. 8 mans in all difficulties are a joke compared to 16. Either 16 is overtuned, or 8 is under but they are in no way comparable.

he has no pushback at the point you are supposed to knock him off. During the regular part of the fight he does. L2Tank and put your back on a wall, then move him out when it's time to throw him off. It takes him a few seconds to move, but he will eventually.

my guild is 16 man and it sucks. I have no intention of breaking down to 8's. I don't mind if they give no incentive (selfishly I wish they would), but right now I feel punished for doing them. If you're going to make them harder, which they are, they need to give greater rewards. If they are going to give the same rewards, they need to be rebalanced.