well while i agree that revan was stronger(that much is obvious, the exile has some special things about her, and she did quite a few memorable things(including saving revans behind when he was a prisoner for 3 years...). she is an amazing character, they both are, and both are very well devloped. on a side note, yes i could go through all sorts of things and do a list of revans abilities, but its really not worth it. imho, this is not worth arguing over. revan is stronger, but as for which one is cooler thats up for debate though i dont think its worth debating over. off the top of my head though... Revan: Thought Bomb: an ancient sith ritual that even Darth Bane was afraid to use. Who knows how many other sith rituals he knows as well(yes his memory was wiped, but as you learn in the novel, his memory has slowly been coming back to him, and when he gets his mask back, he suddenly gets a flood of his old memories back) Force Storm: A lot of Revan fans seem to quote this as one of his signature abilities, though i haven't heard of him actually using it in any battle canonically, and in the games both meetra and revan can learn this, though it seems unlikely either of them actually would(revan might he seems to like abilities from both dark and light, but i doubt meetra would though she could). Lightsaber Combat: Meetra knows all the forms from observing them and her special learning power ofc, but from my understanding, revan is a master lightsaber duelist who has yet to actually be defeated in a lightsaber battle. Force Deflection/Absorbtion: Cant remember what this is actually called, think it starts with a "T" but its the thing Yoda does in episode 2 with count dookus lightning. due to her learning power, she could in theory actually learn this as well, or may even already know it, but she has not demonstrated a successful attempt at this, where as revan has. Telekinesis: obviously they both can do this but somewhere i thought i read revan was like a prodigy at it or something. dont quote me on that, again im just doing these off the top of my head, but i think i read that. Twin Disciples: Revan is unique in that he can channel both the light and the dark simultaneously to produce unique and devastating effects. Strategy: Finally, Revan is a strategic genius. Meetra is good at strategies, but there is a reason Revan lead and she was merely his most trusted general. those are just(some) his abilities that i can think of off the top of my head... now on to the more important part: I'm 100% certain, that many people, including Mandalore the Preserver and many jedi masters have said things along the lines of what Meetra Surik herself said: "Another powerful Jedi, Meetra Surik, particularly noted that Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met."......she said it herself..., as well as many others saying things such as him being the greatest warrior of the age, and he was able to defeat Mandalore the Ultimate in single combat. Many sources describe him as being the most gifted in the force of his time...meetra is in his time... we can argue all we want, but meetra agrees with me.

lets see here...revan could have done all of that except for nihilous, and i think he could have found some way to deal with that, it just would have been much more difficult since he cant cut himself off from the force. also, i must add, did i miss something in that i never heard of the exile having the ability to cut others off from the force, only that she instinctively did it after malachor V. again, both her and revan are extremely cool and well developed characters. its an impossible debate to win which one is cooler. i prefer revan because he has an awesome mask(yes there are many other reasons, i.e: his philosiphies and using both the dark and the light in combat). however when it comes to raw power, yes meetra has some special things from cutting herself off from the force that revan doesnt. but meetra, as powerful as she is, with the help of a powerful sith lord who went on to become the immortal emperors wrath, couldnt even get an attack off on a member of the dark council, who revan did the yoda thingy he did in ep 2 against dooku with her lightning and just disintegrated her easily. i suppose i do have to add in though that technically our characters in swtor are supposedly more powerful than either of them...and i hate to mention it but the movie characters(luke, sidious, vader, maybe obi wan and yoda) are according to lucas(though ive been ignoring him since special edition) are more powerful than revan, meetra, or our characters in swtor. it kinda saddens me to know that a guy who can barely move and breathes heavy just from standing still can supposedly beat revan/meetra/our characters easy.

thats quite a simplified version, and quite a deatailed description, of kotor 1 and 2 respectively. revan did have to clean up his own mess. after he got mind controlled by an emperor empowered by the souls of thousands of sith lords. and he hardly made malak his equal. malak thought he was. but malak, even when he could draw on the power of the star forge to make himself nearly invincible, was still hardly a challenge for revan. hell, if you want to talk gameplay wise, my revan actually would have destroyed malak on the leviathan in most of my playthroughs were it not for bastila doing her dumb *****. but this is story so...again, arguments can be made either way for coolness. i go with revan, others with the exile. but power wise its not contest.

well he is quite a BAMF...but still, having not read the handbook that you're referring to myself, i suppose i cant really say anything. however i would say that it most likely is referring to the actual game powers of the characters, rather than story wise, seeing as how she would in the game easily become more powerful than revan due to the fact that revan is capped at level 20 in the first game and meetra can get much higher than that if you were to do a lot of sidequests and such. though i cant know that for certain, that is just my guess. even before he became the extremely powerful redeemed revan, he was still powerful enough back before he even became darth revan to inspire extreme loyalty and, while i cant quote it, im almost certain that the exile at some time the exile claimed revans power to be awe-inspiring. again, cant quote it, could be totally off on that, but it seems like i remember that. i loved the revan novel, but i must say it was a rather unsatisfying end to two very well written and developed characters. meetras end is even worse, though i accept that its probably more "realistic"(if thats even a factor at all in a universe with space cowboys and magicians wielding oversized glowsticks?), it was still rather unsatisfying. all i can hope is that since they didnt kill him, that they bring revan back as a level 50 ops boss(he had just gone 300 years in a prison using all his willpower to keep the emperor at bay as best he could, and he hadnt had much combat practice since then...i think he needed a bit of a warmup.). but i doubt they will do that as they want you to feel heroic and more powerful than revan, which i can understand. but they had better bring him back as somethign more than a mid level flashpoint boss since they left him alive. doesnt have to be a 50 ops boss but something. maybe a boss in the sith warrior story act 4 or something? idk. anyways, now that that little debate is about over with, i ask again, why are people calling ops op again? just saw another post about it. kept hearing they were underpowered so i rolled one for a challenge and now out of nowhere they are beasts again. what are people just talking about their heal spec or something???

and whats with this about operatives being op out of nowhere when i had heard the nerfs had about killed them cept for healer, so i just rerolled one because i like a class thats a challenge that i enjoy the playstyle of(while i tend to hate with a passion stealth classes, operatives have what, 1 opener from stealth and a vanish? thats not too bad, most of the damage will be dealt out of stealth anyways so it works for me

you still dont seem to understand that revan could in an instant completely destroy the exile and scourge. the others i kind of have to give you according to canon. but while both revan and the exile had humongous impacts on the galaxy, revan is vastly more powerful than meetra surik. meetra surik is extremely cool(some would say more so than revan). but she is nowhere near as powerful as he is, or even was during the mando wars and as a sith lord. again, i think either you have never read the revan novel(hate what they did with meetra but at the same time it almost felt appropriate) or seriously need to re-read it.

meetra surik is one of the most powerful to come along and had some amazing powers due to her unique situation of being cut off from the force. on paper it seems easily said that she is far cooler than revan. however, revan is unique in that, due to his mind being dominated turning him to the darkside, he is one of the few characters(only? not sure) of the EU that not only has experienced both sides, but actively embraces them both, in ideology and combat. both of their characters are about just as cool story wise, after all, one is the heart of the force, the other was potentially the death of the force. however, imho, i personally agree with revans philosophies and battle techniques more. they are both very awesome and powerful characters, however, if anyone has even the slightest thought after reading the revan novel(as someone in another thread appears to. i still dont believe he has actually read the revan novel) that meetra could have slight chance at defeating revan 1v1...well i think you may need your head checked out. or you just cant read. one of the two. however, i will stress again that they are both extremely cool, and despite my personal opinions on the matter, and who is more powerful, it would be a great debate(as we have seen) on who is "cooler". Revan and meetra both are some of the most powerful characters in all of star wars. imho revan is probably the most powerful(in that, if he is not more powerful than the person he is facing, he will figure out some way to beat them). yes i respect that lucas himself has said that luke and sidious are the most powerful above all of the EU. but honestly i stopped paying attention to lucas and pretty much the entire movie saga after the special edition. so in EU, i claim revan to be the most "naturally powerful" force user to come along. that is in the EU mind you, and the most powerful naturally, not by some dark ritual to eat souls or something(a la nihilous/vitiate). although im sure you could canonically prove this false, it would be very difficult since you cant actually put two people against each other. yes the old republic era is much much much more interesting than the movie eras, and the lore and characters become so much more developed than the movie characters ever could be due to the restrictions of them being the movie characters. im a revan fanboi because, yes kotor is still my favorite video game of all time. but also because i feel like revan is the first one in the star wars universe to finally get it right. no he himself isnt perfect, but in my mind his philosophies are. the dark and the light are intertwined more than you know. i always wondered when i was young why there were good guys and bad guys and why there werent any in-between, perhaps one that believed that both the sith and the jedi got some things right. (yes there are neutral force organizations and such in star wars lore but they still have their own ways of thinking. revan in the first that i have yet to find something i disagree with him on.) revan fanbois ftw:hope_02: TL;DR: revan>meetra in power--revan=meetra in coolness(arguments can be made either way)--revan is in top 5 at least of the EU(#1 if you ask me). Revan fanbois ftw. i did not look at the dates so this is prob a huge necro but i dont think people will care too much.

i say wait till they add in same sex romance. thats what im doing on all my female chars as i cant stand romancing dudes even if i am a chick. unless im playing a dude. in that case i do like romancing dudes. but not in star wars. only dragon age. 2. not 1. it was eww in 1 too. its eww in 2 as well, but i still do it.

erm...i was about to claim that i know that they are supposedly more powerful in canon, and that im just a revan fanboi who was going to keep his opinion despite that fact as we cant ever really put them against each other...but then...the exile? are you kidding me? the exile? meetra surik? have you even read the revan novel? let me correct your list-- Sidious, exar kun(meh....i guess i have to give that one, same as with sidous), bane, vitiate(vitate cheated tho by absorbing all those souls and whatnot. revan was able to hold him off in a 1v1 situation well enough. he was going to lose sure, but had vitiate not had all those ddark rituals and stuff, i claim revan would be better), marka ragnos, and i refuse to give you kyle katarn. i understand hes the star wars chuck norris. idc. revan>kyle katarn. sidous, exar kun, bane, vitiate, and marka ragnos, were it a real court like argument, i wouldnt be able to win saying revan was better than them, despite the fact that i believe they are. however, luke skywalker and yoda are 2 of the weaker grandmasters of the jedi order id say, and i think i could get away claiming revan is better than them. i might could possibly get away with saying revan is better than bane and exar kun too. id get a lot of hate, as i obviously am already, for it, but i would anyways. i also believe revans better than sidous exar kun, bane, and vitiate were he not to have all his dark ritual enhancing stuff , but there is enough canon content out there that proves me wrong on at least sidous and vitiate, but exar kun and bane...idk... tl;dr: like i said, i know what canon and lucas says, and ive been ignoring lucas for years, and sometimes the canon is just stupid. however, canon will never be able to "prove" without a doubt that bane, exar kun, and kyle katarn are better than revan. all the guys in the movies is g-canon and theres not a flippin thing i can do but say once again, f*** you lucas, f*** you... again, the exile? really? i was going to just give up this argument and let you win as your more correct than me in this technically since you actually can prove some of this with canon...but the exile? you dont really believe that do you? the exile and scourge together couldnt defeat a single dark council member that revan disintegrated without a 5 second fight. and even the ones that can be proven more powerful, i hardly would call them "vastly" more powerful. it would be a hell of a fight, one that they could still lose to revan if they f*** up.(yes everyone f*** up. conan can die just as easily to a new recruit if hes not paying attention or something as he can to a seasoned vet. ***** happens. in battle mistakes can be made by the best of us. trust me, i know this very well as a fencer irl)

i may be fooling around and necroing random threads and such, but i was dead serious when i said revan was the strongest sith lord of all time. he was also the strongest jedi master of all time. hed hand yodas little green ***** right to him. and palpatine... i know that somewhere lucas himself said that palpatine actually was intended to be the most powerful sith of all time but ive pretty much ignored lucas since special edition...

call him what you want, but revan was the strongest sith lord of all time.

i usually play a mage(a lock, demonologist, necromancer, etc[darker caster basically] to be more exact) as well, but i must say, other than the fact the the sage/sorc is the only class that really uses "magic" so to speak, all the other ranged classes feel more like a mage than they do. they feel like some sort of priest or cleric thats trying to deal damage but sadly falls behind the other classes because they were made to be healers. kinda like guardians and how they fall behind in dps since they were designed to be tanks it seems....except they arent really falling behind in dps...nor are any of the other classes just as capable at tanking/healing................... actually that last sentence was a lie, ALL of the healers currently are just that--viable only as healers. you cant even get into a rated with them if your not a healer...but the tanks and their dps specs are doing fine! that is if you count out deception spec, madness is still good for sins.

i love what this post means when you read his sig...

you're welcome

si señorita, but is this not a thread that could use some life?

whats a class thats usually pretty bad in pvp, but if played well can do good? looks to me like a lot of people are describing gunslinger that way, also guardians. operatives seems to be people dont think they can even do anything at all from what i gather. just wondering cus i like a challenge. melee ranged whatever i dont discriminate.

so this is off topic but iwas having trouble finding anything on this-- i told the old commander that i would bring in all of havoc alive...then i had no choice on taris but to kill needles. no option whatsoever to bring him in...did i just make a subtley wrong choice in the convo with him or something where i got no ls or ds points or any hint saying i would kill him or attack or anything, or is this what always happens? kinda a bummer if it is...

while assault spec for the vanguard seems a lot better on paper(and in 1v1 situations against them), the added range that commandos can keep their dps sustained from, and the fact that they can, if a few points are put into the healing tree, do some losing and heal themselves(its not huge we arent heal specced after all, but the activation time decreasing talent and maybe a couple of others in theh ealing tree makes it decent enough for a small bit of added survivability that the vanguard wont get). yes even with range and some healing the vanguard is *currently* still better with this spec, commando i feel is not quite as bad off as everyone claims if played well, though they certainly arent in a good spot for pvp right now. just my 2 cents, feel free to disagree/caps lock scream my face into the ground.

/agree 5char

they arent complaining about having heals...that would be just stupid(which, while im not saying that the swtor forums community is not stupid, those in this thread, despite the title, at least have some semblance of sense.), they are complaining that the commando gets outdone in just about every way in pvp, making them a terrible choice over other classes for anything. their damage doesnt compare to say a gunslinger or a vanguard. their survivability is laughable compared to say, a vanguard or a sage(honestly they may wear heavy armor but they are still just glass cann--well, glass...not much of a cannon. they have no snares or roots, minus a talented snare added to the knockback and a very weak one on full auto), they bring no utility to the table(they have a knockback, and a weak talented knockback...they have one cc on a cast time. they have NO INTERRUPT, ranged, or even melee, other than a talented weak knockback with no lockout duration. any class can do something better. sage/scoundrel can heal just as good(most likely better but i have no proof of that), while bringing more survivability and utility to the table. gunnery spec(which has most of the talented "utility" if you wish to call it that) is as if not more stationary than a gunslinger with lower damage, ability to be interrupted/leapt to, and next to nothing in utility. assault, while it has more mobility, still has lower damage than pretty much any other ac(guardians? hmm...no lower than sweep guards, prob lower or on par with vigilance guards...again not even considering utility, survivability, etc) and all the dots can be removed by a half aware healer in ranked wzs, and has even less utility than gunnery. TL;DR?: dps commandos will always be the last picked in gym class. another class can always do it better. be it dps, almost all classes outdps them. utility, heh lets not even go there. survivability, almost as bad as utility, a couple of *****ty defensive cds and no mobility and a little damage or no damage and a little mobility. they are not upset because they have heals, their upset because they cant be viable doing anything but heals. they would gladly trade their weak heals for the ability to have just one niche in a ranked group. be it the leet deepz, being the deepz that no one can kill, being the guy that locks their healer down tight while everyone else kills him or the est of their team, etc. they just want to be able to do something.

i realize im kinda necroing but just putting this out there-there are two dark options at end of knight story. the one where you let the guy live to prepare the galaxy or whatever allows you 2 options for making your lightsaber-standard lightsaber or "dark jedis lightsaber" if you choose the dark side lightsaber building choice. the dark jedis gives a green crystal. idk if the other guy just got a bug or didnt actually choose both dark side options or what. again , know im necroing, and im not sorry. get over it ppl.

meh i took a look at the marksman tree(or whatever the one that focuses on cover is...the first tree, not the like explosive one), and it looked like amazing in pvp. so ima reroll a gunslinger, because sorc is extremely boring and repetitive.

as a merc healer, i pretty much agree completely with this. right after the patch hit i was upset about how hard they nerfed us. then i realised they didnt nerf us all that bad, i just have to actually try to get away from that mara/sent thats on me now instead of just standing there....

hmph. really wish i was a commando and not a merc. so much cooler. anyways, OT, i gave up umm whats it called for commandos........gunnery! long ago for combat medic. i can generally do well enough, even if the other team happens to not be awful and actually stop me from free casting...i gave it up because the other two specs are way too boring to play. i can count using in my regular rotation about...4 abilities in gunnery(fa, gr, hib, whatever the hell heatseeker missiles is called for commando), and in the other one(no clue what its called), 5 regularly, and if im not worried about ammo and want some extra damage, 6(fa, hib, umm...incendiary round if thats what its called?, power shot or whatever it is for commandos, the thing at the top of the tree, and occasionally, fusion missiles commando equivalent) gunnery is just extremely simple and boring. the other one is quite a bit more involved, but it just ends up feeling too....easy? i guess... tl;dr: roll a vanguard and be infinitely happier

im sorry but guardians cant do crap damage. once they get shockwave(or whatever the hell its called for guardians) stacked to 4 they can get in 1 good smash crit...then they gotta wait till they can get the stack again...their damage aside from that is laughable. and the other spec, vengeance or whatever its called can do decent enough damage if played really well. in the end, vanguards are superior in every way. higher natural defenses. higher(way way higher) damage. can do range if need be(which allows some kiting). great aoe to go along with better single target damage. due to better damage, better threat gen. they arent forced to use an oversized glow stick. overall, they are just plain better in every way, except for guardians have better cds. but without those cds they are nothing. and even with them, i think i would put my money on a vanguard without his.