Dude, i dont mind you agreeing with that rude guy, if thats how you think, thats your opinion, and its yours to keep. But do you wanna know the difference between you, and that rude guy??? YOU ACTUALLY SAID SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE!! lol, sorry for the caps, but i loved reading what you had to write, i never tried madness, and i recently quit so i never will, but you really made some excellent points, this is the kind of feedback i love. Only thing, you said madness is the stronger DPS tree, well maybe your right, but at the end of the day, this guide is for people who insist of playing the deception spec because they love it, not because they believe its the better spec. I play MMOs to enjoy myself, and become the best i can at my specific class, not to play the most OP spec and wreck. I wrecked in deception, against some of the best players on my server, and ive been invited into many premades, because i play well. I dont want to conform in MMOs, ive always chosen the harder classes, because i enjoy the challenge. But hey, if i ever decide to come back and play my sin again, im definitely going to try madness, and ill be sure to come back and re read your post if i do so, such a great post man, well said!!! Cheers

Sure, ill be glad to answer First off, i never said surging charge was the tanking stance, always dark charge for tanking stance, i just mentioned i switch from surging to dark charge when i want to say protect a ball carrier in huttball, give him/her the extra few meters of life, ill probably die, but ill get them farther, other than that, 100 force cost to change stances in any other scenario is pointless. Taunting is a personal preference. Im currently in tank stance for my last few days before i quit so i can write up a guide while im away for a few months. Basically i only taunt a enemy when they are harassing my healer, or just a healer nearby, other than that, dps can usually handle themselves and dont need my taunt. In big mosh pit fights (mainly voidstar) i AoE every CD, gets me 3 medals within a match just from using that AoE taunt every CD in a mosh pit scenario. Great ability. in deception, i have taunt keybinded easily for me, so i can use it whenever i deem necessary, i mean it costs nothing to do, just a global cooldown lol. The 2x voltaic slashs is two procs, after you do VS twice, you get a reduced shock cost and increased shock damage, great deal for just two slashes In terms of the maul proc, look in your deception tree, the very bottom row in the middle, its called "duplicity" basically i tell people here in my guide, ONLY use maul when duplicity procs, because duplicity makes maul cost 50% less (so 25 force instead of 50) and using 50 force for maul is stupid, complete waste of force, so just keep attacking your target and eventually you will look on your buffs bar (the buff pictures above your HP bar, next to your characters portrait) and you will see the proc sign, use it then, it will do more damage too. Basically just use maul when it procs, and it will cost 25 force. Surging charge attacks have a 30% change to proc that maul proc, so it will happen more often than you think. Botttom line: If you dont see the maul proc, dont use maul!!! My best match at 512k total in voidstar, was with 3 guildies, and only one was a healer, and he was half centurion half level 48 oranges, so it wasnt like i had a fully champ geared healer with me, but all 3 guildies were Real life friends from high school and we were on vent, so ya the communication helps, if you have a guild or get into one that pvps daily, hang with them, get into ques with them and such, and you will win more. I lose about 60-70% of my matches because my friends arent with me, and so many people dont know how to pvp nowadays. And those loses are really only against other premades, so ill solo que, and ill be up against a premade of the best pvp guild on the server, then after that match ill ask if i can join them, and they always invite me haha. Making friends and being friendly never hurts My best damage done without a premade was like 450k i think, so ive had good matches without my guildies, but at the end of the day, i lost that 450k match, and i got like 8 medals, and most votes, because i was constantly helping the ball carrier. In terms of the casted DoT, its a waste imo, some assassins have told me they use it, but dude, its some initial damage of the cast, then like a 5-6 second DoT, which is not nearly as strong as it should be for the force cost. If your a sorcerer, then hell ya, talents buff that skill. Otherwise as a sin, dont bother, doesn't do enough damage to justify the force cost, BUT thats my opinion, some assassins use it and claim success, and some very smart ones, use that spell against a melee opponent, and when your opponent interupts you, its a great way to make that person blow their interupt CD, but for me its a waste. Good Luck

ya i understand your type, you really can play the game and actually know how to play the class, i really enjoy pvping with guys like you, you give me the challenge i dont seem to get most games i try to be helpful yes, and if you have anything to add since you have previous experience in MMOs please dont hesitate to throw it in here And you will have to be the one writing the madness guide, ill never touch madness, looks like crap, and ever other sin on the server whines about it hahaha, cheers!

Hey ragg, thanks for your kind words! i appreciate it! In terms of priority stats, i honestly just wear what the gear sets give me. When i played wow i was really into moving stuff around and gear changes and different combos, but in this game i simply just follow the stats of the stalker gear (deception and madness gear) and jsut work with that. the only changes i ever make are i will occasionally wear some columi (dont pve enuf for rakata haha) because i believe expertise has a soft cap, not too sure. Unfortunately, im quitting in a few days, but if i can make a guide while not having an active subscriptoin i will do so. If i cant post without a paid subscription then i apologize in advance. It would be a shame because i already have a part of the tank guide started.

Here is the definition of guide from dictionary.com: "to supply (a person) with advice or counsel, as in practical or spiritual affairs." Maybe not spiritual affairs, but im trying to guide players to learn the new class they might have just picked up, give them a great head start, or help the higher level players learn something they didn't know beforehand, its wasn't made to "impress" the elitist players like yourself, but i'd think you could be a bit more constructive and polite, obviously you lack these social skills. Here is the definition of advice from dictionary.com: "an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action" an opinion and recommendation is NOT a fact, its my own opinion, my way of thinking, that i have the right to share publically on the forums without being harrassed by people such as yourself. I called it a guide because it was supposed to "guide" other players in the ways of leveling and end gaming with their class, I tried to make the game seem more enjoyable through the process of created this guide. No, your right, i didn't crunch numbers and do the "in-game math" but that wasn't my target audience. I used to do the math and research behind maximizing dps for my raiding toons in wow, and it didn't feel like a game anymore by the time i got into heroic raiding. Thats what im trying to avoid here, but your blind to see it. The best players will probably take one look at my guide and say "meh, i know all that, no need" and they leave peacefully, or leave a nice note saying something like "great way to help starting and struggling players", those are the ideal leaders, you have done neither of those things. Definition of bad person from dictionary.com: "a person who does harm to others (n)" You have done just that. Your first post you basically said "your guides a piece of crap" instead of saying "i really dont think your guide is helpfull because...." so basically you weren't contributing anything constructive to the post i originally created to help other people in need. You were being counter productive. I only made one request at the end of my guide, say constructive things only, even if they are negative. you can be productive and criticize me. You said in the post above that i quoted "your wall of text can be harmful to newbies" Well you can never get enough help and advice. There is nothing in that guide that could make anyone any worse at the class, you can probably improve even if you didn't learn anything from my guide, but you can't get worse. Now it all comes down to me wanted to help other people, give something to other players, and your just posting pointless comments, trying to put into the ground for some reason ill never know. Maybe you get joy from it (that would make you sick) or you feel better than everyone else, in which case, why bother with people like us who are no where "near your caliber of skill". If your so much better, don't bother. Its really that simple. If my post where i raged at you hurt your feelings, i apologize and it wasnt fair, hopefully you will do the same for your negative posting, but i highly doubt you have the maturity to do so. I wish you all the best in your endeavours in game. cheers

I gotta say Jkcheng, your posts are always informative! lol Ya the mercs are somewhat OP at the moment (depends on your definition of OP) and hopefully they get somewhat of a nerf, not a major one, that would just give us more power over them, thus destroying the concept of "balance" in game. And Ops have their own ways of getting around, the only thing i think assassins have for better escapes is shroud, basically being able to shrug off all dots and harmful effects before cloaking, thus avoiding re exiting stealth on a DoT tick, other than that, i dont see the difference, if you do, feel free to enlighten me I never really said that assassins not having insane crits makes them less effective. I just mean't that if we cant survive an Ops initial burst, we are finished for that fight. I personally can send Ops running, but a good Op (which are rare, most of them re rolled) can really give me a good fight! And ya, i originally thought assassins were a major burst class but now i see they are more of a combo of burst and a flow of decent dps. Cheers

Well for anyone who didnt see my original reply, it was rough lol, and im still pissed off at you dude, your being incredibly rude and inconsiderate. I play the game because i enjoy it, not because i wanna "pwn and wreck newbs". Its a video game dude, get over it. Enjoy the game. You want competition, play a sport. The old republic is a fantastic game, but its people like you who really ruin the experience for other players, and hopefully someday your learn your lesson. You have all the right to be an elitist and have the attitude you have, but not on my thread. I will be respectful although you have failed to show any to me, please, stop commenting on my thread, good day.

you said your doing around 100k, but getting 8 medals a match. Well congrats man! that means instead of just trying to pull numbers for the charts, your assisting your team, thats how you get medals anyways rite? and thats how you win matches In terms of dark charge switching, a recent patch changed charge switching from a cost of 50 force per change to 100, this is because too many deception assassins were gaining the upper defensive hand in PvP, but in my honest opinion, they should have left it like it is, we need some extra stuff to make the game "balanced" but hey its an MMO what do you expect rite? The answer to your first question is simple, once you finished your deception talents, id recommend what i posted in my guide, which is the remaining 7 in the darkness tree, great for PvE survivability. That should do you well. For question 2, stay in surging charge man, to be honest the 100 force to change stances is incredibly brutal, ive been trying lately and its killing me, i just stay in surging charge. My only exception is when i see a ball carrier struggling in huttball, ill pop blackout, and when i hit 100 force i switch to dark charge, and shield him, and knock enemies off the ledges and such. A lot of people vote for me when they notice i do these kinda things to really "take one for the team" meaning instead of just pure dpsing the enemies harrassing my ball carrier, i switch, shield him, and CC, in the long run giving up my numbers lol (and i still manage to be top damage!! haha) In terms of writing the guide man, it was my pleasure i really hope you enjoyed it!!

Kenshei, I wanted to thank you for being so calm in your reply to the current elitist on my thread. You gave the reply i wanted to give, but i couldn't hold my anger anymore. You made so many valid points and pointed out many of this guys flaws. You said the community needs more people like the OP, and OP means...original poster? If that is what you mean't then i would like to say i appreciate that, it means a lot to see that the majority of people appreciate my efforts. It doesn't take much to talk smack on forums, my bets are on this guy really sucking overall as a player, and i can't imagine anyone wanting to group with him...ever. Even the biggest elitists on my server (who are actually very nice people btw) would never consider running with this guy. Thanks for saying what i couldn't, cheers

You are very more than welcome sir, thank you for reading it and giving such a polite comment, it makes my day! Cheers dude

Hey dude, glad to help, i hope you enjoy and cherish the assassin class as a whole

You mentioned counter attacks to going up against other classes, that was not a part of my guide, and i really love that you put some extra info into the thread, really appreciate it You mentioned using shroud with cloak, very smart and i believe i mentioned that somewhere along the lines in my guide, but great reminder. Only thing you said was: "stealth, mind trap, seethe" Well the reason i think you get hate is because your blowing a 90 second CD (cloak...?) for the sake of healing up, well in most scenarios, by the time they really do some damage to me (like get me to 50% ish) i got them at 5-10%, but if your undergeared and really need that advantage to kill that target (maybe that target is a really good player) then ya man, i agree go for it, but dont assume their CC breaker is used, in which scenario, they will catch you off gaurd, and when they have the upper hand you could very well be finished, so approach this scenario with caution

Hey man, to be honest i was gonna rage at you, but i decided you have the right to your opinion and i respect that. First of all id like to point out that you obviously didn't read my guide because then you would understand that i only wanted "constructive" criticism. That doesnt mean you have to love it, but if you dont like my guide say something along the lines of: "I didnt like your guide BECAUSE..." etc, not "your guides a piece of ****" There is a huge difference. Now, most of the "potentially" good players you speak of are what they make of their playstyle and class. Yes assassins are quite underpowered atm, but that doesnt mean everyone should drop them, and play a merc with 3 buttons. you also said "its not about diversity and choice, but effictiveness" well you know what dude, im not gonna roll a class for the sake of hitting harder than another i might like more. I play games to enjoy myself and choose what makes me happy when i play. I have played a higher level BH merc dps, and i got so bored after 2 matches, most of the battlemasters and above on my server dont do merc dps anymore, they all heal, and i asked why, they said they wanted to jump off a building. And yes, assassins arent that great anymore, maybe better at launch, and ive seen many assassins go into tank spec instead (which i do well in aswell). But to say that you should play a class because it hits harder than others is pathetic man, im sorry. Im also confused, are you saying my guide is crap and assassins are overall bad in PvP, or that im just bad? and for the record the majority of my oponents nowadays are war heros and above.....I dont see many new 50s in pvp anymore. You also said my build is **** for PvE? well wake up my friend, i mentioned it multiple times, its a PVP BUILD......if you had actually taken the time to give my guide a read, or even skim most of it, you would have realized that. Not to mention in the guide i also mentioned which like 5 points to switch to maxmize the build for PvE.....over 5,000 have read this so far, and it seems as though everyone has found it useful EXCEPT you. Im not saying your stupid for hating my guide, but at least be constructive next time. Cheers

my friend, you are correct, they are very underpowered in my honest opinion. I feel like everytime i play my assassin im not hitting as hard as other classes do, and i still manage to get more medals, defensive points, and top damage done 8/10 of my daily matches. The thing is dude, id rather hit 2.5k crits with my battlemaster assassin, then play a merc and hit 3 buttons.....i play MMOs for the challenge, not to stand in the back of the group and just hit 2-3, maybe even 4 buttons. Dont get me wrong, i have a merc dps/healer (mainly healz) and i enjoyed merc dps and its great, but its way to easy and hits way to hard ruining the fun for me. Hopefully they give us a buff soon

As a matter of fact ive done the same, ive used the trink and reck at the same time (im not a fan of adrenals, too lazy to bother haha) and it works really well. So i should have mentioned that, lol. and in terms of razors products, i personally have only had the naga mouse, and it has never caused me any problems, ive had it for like 5 years now, still works like new out of the box, maybe for some people its different. I hope logitech serves you well

Knowing that someone is going to take my knowledge to its full potential makes me smile, because its the reason i made the guide in the first place, to help the knew assassins get on their feet, and quickly adapt to their new class (and to help the currently experienced assassins too lol) And as for the spec, maybe you feel you wont need one of the talents i said was recommended, and you might take something else that you feel fits your playstyle better. I hate hearing new players say "oh i got this great build from the internet and im just gonna follow it" problem with that is those people NEVER read the talents, they just assume they are gonna wreck with those talents but it sounds like you actually READ my talent descriptions, so you understand how "my" playstyle works, because everyone develops their own, you will too! Good Luck!

Hey, ive never heard of a trackball, can you further explain what it is? sounds really interesting!! ill be sure to google it! But yes the naga may not be for everyone seeing as its one of the most expensive gaming accessories on the market today, but for a good reason, it makes a real difference in PvP, and makes PvE smoother in my opinion, but i dont PvE enough to justify that, lol heroic operation once in a while

Lol enjoy that 70%+ crit, it doesnt last long, once u get gear (centurion/champion) ull notice more accuracy and power and crit and surge balance, VS just all crit and surge while leveling, its for the sake of when your not criting like crazy 1-2 times every 2 minutes, your normal attacks are just generally hitting harder. i used to do like 200k a warzone with all that crit when i first hit 50 because i was only doing decent damage off the recklessness buff, and my normal attacks (voltaic slash, etc) were complete crap, now with the balance i do well over 500k assuming my group is destroying the other team and i have time to just pump out numbers, using a balance of Acc/power and crit/surge. The gear was designed that way, and most classes dont beat me in warzones.

I understand what your saying, buy maybe you just need more practice and faster response. This is not an insult to you or your playstyle, its just not the easiest class to play. I can see where your coming from and understand what difficulties you may be having, but i did every leveling zone 2 levels under its minimum (i was desperate to see more planets lol) and i beat thanaton at level 48, half greens, half level 45ish oranges, khem val all greens, plus the heroic moment CD, took me a few tries but i did it. Its kinda like a rogue in WoW, when you first hit 80 (or 70, 60, 85 w/e) it was a hard class to get used to, but as you progressed and got more play time on that character and more experienced, you become a better assassin. Its all about how much time you put into the class. This isnt the ordanary videogame where everyone gets the some story and experience. There are the heroic raiders/nightmare raiders, and war heros and battlemasters (and above), and they are better than most because of the time they put into it. you said its more during leveling, well in pvp at level 36 (first time i pvped on this toon) i was playing with geared level 50s, and i was able to beat half of the ones i went up against (most were centurions at the time, maybe an occasional champion) and it felt great. Ive played a sniper too and i can tell you its 10x easier than an assassin, you just sit in the back casting hoping you dont get chased haha, and if u do, thats when skill is tested. Just play the assassin more, and if it is underpowered, and you still manage to kick some ***, you should be more proud of yourself, then playing for instance a merc dps or sorcerer (or a paladin for a wow reference), which are both OP as hell in my mind. I always choose the harder classes because i get more of a kick out of it enjoy your assassin, they are well worth the work and practice! cheers

ya i mentioned those things, and i agree with you on the rogue part. No worries, more feedback is always welcome, glad you enjoyed the read! cheers

The armor pen is just a stepping stone, its the reduced sprint and reduced shroud CDs i want the most, works wonders in pvp. if u pve then get rid of those and go chain shock

I have 12 buttons on my mouse, its called the razor naga, a bit expensive but well worth the price.

Thank you very much. Its all about opinions and self experience.

Ive taken on and defeated two operatives with full champ gear (i knew them personally) in my full champ set as a tankasin.....its not hard, you barely take damage if you play it right. Or were u talking about something else?

that i have never seen. the highest ive ever seen on my way to valor 60 was myself at 512k, deception assassin. That must be insane.....