My wife and I both have accounts. We're not buying it. We're still playing it and will probably still play up to its release and see what we want to do from there. We still enjoy leveling alts and buying little things on the cartel market here and there.

^This. I like the cartel market for some things here and there but the prices could use a drastic (talking 50-90%) reduction, easily. Think about it, you're buying a level 31 prototype set which does not include bracers and belt while being nothing but reskins for around the neighborhood of 10-15 dollars? What would that kind of stuff cost in other successful F2P models? a tenth of that? 20%?

Other MMO's typically add multiple new zones, in the neighborhood of 3-6, along with many other features like trade skills, raiding content, new gear models, and a completely new story which is why they charge 30.00 minimum. 1 zone with all the rest having possibly major let downs for most, charging subbers after implying they may not is pretty pathetic, I do not care how cheap it is. I have played many MMO's including EQ, DAoC, a stint in SWG, CoH, a stint in LOTRO, and WoW, this Makeb business is far more comparable to a content patch than an expansion. In fact, they have yet to announce ANYTHING that make it comparable to an expansion that's worth purchasing.

Uhh, you may not have been following development of this game very closely over the last 6 or so years, but I have and I can tell you that they actually gave up on this idea back in 09-10. They had that idea/expectation for the game but they began to realize in development that it would not compete and their tone concerning their ambition really changed toward the end of 09. Right now, they're goal is making back the principle investments for development and marketing which combined could equal a figure that they were 8-9 digits short of pre-f2p (according to latest assessments from industry analysts, which by the way are all very old estimates). They could have made their money back by now, or pulled pretty close to where they can keep the lights on for years to come and function sort of like CoH did for so many years, at least that's what I am hoping for. If you can imagine how low the expectations dropped in the last year to two years of development, that should give you an idea of how low your expectations should be now. I have learned to enjoy this game for what it is, not focus on what it is missing, and am playing it with my wife cause she will not play anything else. Honestly, you may just not have enough of a drive to continue playing, if so, I would recommend taking off for a couple months then coming back and trying some of the new shiny stuff if that's your thing.

So, Troll's equation is, MMO has to be hard enough to require other people to play which = success. Blizzard called, they said their MMO is far easier than this game when it comes to single player and massively successful. You're advertising a false positive. If you're going to critique, maintain some semblance of logic. If you're going to troll and expect to be taken at least somewhat seriously, attempt to appear as though you're applying logic. There seems to be a fine art to trolling and you, sir, are no Picasso.

There's nothing really holding you back from doing that now, you just will not get as much, if any, xp for going back and finishing the lower level quests. The major thing for me is, I like the xp gains, it gives us the opportunity to play longer on the planets that we enjoy and skip those that we do not. I have played through Alderaan once on each side and hated it both times, so I always skip that hole, minus the class missions. I generally skip parts of Balmorra and Hoth as well because they can get boring and tedious after a while. The argument for this would be, "well, then BW should just make all that skipped content better too." This is irrational to me, to a certain extent. You cannot make all content of this game all things to all people, so recognizing that in their design philosophy, they give players the option to choose planet content as they level by increasing xp gains and having bonus series. It's a simple solution to what has been a major problem for some in previous MMO's.

I think this is the real discussion inside this discussion. It is late so I am going to keep this a bit short, but I would say, let all of the content, including UI/quick travel/fleet passes/etc., be completely free. Give subscribers access to improvements on their experiences prior to f2p. The xp boost consumable, make it a consumable for f2pers (at a coin cost), make it a permanent buff for sub players and increase it for the sub guys to somewhere between 35-50% (stacking with rested). This give subbers an advantage to out level certain content more easily if there's places they would like to skip or they just want to level faster. Give subers access to legacy perks via legacy level only (no credit or cartel coin costs for unlocking). Mail sub players a complimentary cartel pack on a weekly or monthly basis. Not only let them have access to speeders at earlier levels, but make it cheaper for them to train. Give subbers bind on account items that level with the character, similar to WoW's heirloom system (I know people hate talking WoW with TOR, but that was actually a VERY popular and incredibly fun system). Rather than exceedingly limiting the experience for the free players, greatly augment the experience of the subbers. F2Pers will see this and will at least provide greater incentives for F2Pers to sub up. And you can always leave the pay for certain additional features option available for people that don't want to sub. I am playing with a sub with my wife and we are enjoying it, but I would love to receive more considering im buying coins plus paying two subs. Give the F2Pers more and attract more of them here; its a win win situation regardless. There's nothing really to lose with that method aside from bandwidth...but expanding the population of the game is potentially increasing revenue, which is the point. Even ignore the stuff that i mentioned that's not currently in the game (which wasn't much, there's little in this suggestion they would actually have to develop/design...its all implementation), and it would be cheap and work out really well. TL;DR - This method of "here's 100 pieces of a 500 piece jigsaw puzzle for free or pay and get all 500 pieces" is a little nuts. It should be, "if you don't sub, you get the game up to 50 (no end game, micro transactions excluded)...but if you DO sub we give you the game with pizza, cookies and wine (or whatever beverage you prefer)". I think you get the idea.

BW is letting F2Pers experience them in the hopes that they'll want to come back and buy them. How likely would it be for an average person to purchase a car if they were denied the opportunity to test drive it or even look inside of it/sit in it? Before you fry the fish you have to land him and you're not going to do that without luring him to the hook and getting him to bite.

This has to be a troll. However, its somewhat convincing, so in the case that you're not: This game is insanely monetized for F2Pers that its outrageous. Like if I were to tell my son, "here's your free car, from Dad" and its an 80's model Subaru with no axles, wheels, tires, steering wheel, seats, steering column, engine, transmission, or floor board and he has to pay me every time he wants to install a new part, start it, shift gears, change lanes, change speeds, use the turn signal.

Actually, I just tested this as well. My wife and I just came back from a couple months off and both the XP boost along with rested did indeed stack...so either OP is experiencing a bug or maybe reading the UI logs wrong, but I was definitely seeing a stacking of the two and I tested xp gained from the same mobs at the same level before using xp boost with rested and then after buffing myself with xp boost while rested. TL;DR - From my testing, they do indeed stack.

If you're defining success or failure based on content progression in this game, you're suffering from a severe leap in logic. You're not even considering that the devs actually designed the end game to be easy, which by the way, it is. End game content in this game carries about the same difficulty as non-raid content (dungeons requiring a group or small party rather than a raid) of other games. Look at the time, effort, and attempts required to clear raid content in LOTRO, WoW, DAoC, etc. The content in this game is a joke. Oh, and maybe you should go back and read the whole post despite the tl;dr tag, cause I made it clear that the UI in this game is actually harder than the content.

Bioware wanted a game that would play well out of the box with no add-ons needed, just like WoW. And they did copy WoW, a little, in that you do not "need" add-ons for this game. The problem is the game provides so many complications because the ui is sluggish, does not allow for macro support, and the overall setup is just clunky, etc. (All thinks WoW has never really struggled with, except maybe the 3rd at times). Actually, the ui reminiscent of a single player RPG which would make sense when considering that most of their lead devs have no experience in MMO design. James Ohlen was the one that said mods are not needed for ops, and, again, while technically true, you also do not need gasoline to get your car to your destination...but it certainly makes it a far more manageable task. I actually cancelled cause the game was just so frustrating to play because of the bad GUI that it was just too much to continue with. It's one thing to design boss fights around presenting large challenges to the player, but when you design the interface to be the most challenging boss encounter in the game, you have some serious flaws in your design logic. tl;dr Bioware attempted to make their game's interface streamlined and user friendly enough to not require mods, they failed miserably in typical TOR fashion.

I love the concept of toggling hoods...and its been around since DAoC, but honestly, they're struggling to make this game a profitable venture, so hood toggle is not exactly on their immediate to do list, or things to complete in the foreseeable future. This is what happens when your leadership for the game is a group of devs that either have no MMO design experience or nothing but failed experience in MMO design. Frost that cake with a 200-500 million dollar budget and you have what will most likely be the largest failure in all of video game history.

I lol'd really hard at this...You should post this in the healer forums for Commandos/Mercs. Were you even here during 1.2? Again, say this to healing commandos/mercs. Cause they gave you guys loads of constructive/objective feedback on your healing changes to them. They even gave you numbers which were actually play tested, rather than the one's the devs said they had which were obviously just pulled out of some random orifice. BW Austin has become well known for making up facts then lying that they've been strongly considered/tested so spare us... Are CM's responsible for towing the company line while occasionally stretching the truth for the sake of PR with the community, or is it BW Austin's policy now for you all to just blatantly lie to the community? You have proven on many occasions that you really do not care what feedback the community gives you concerning balance changes so why even respond with garbage like this?

Gunner, I admire your enthusiasm, but you do not need to argue with them on it. You cannot reason with the unreasonable, although it maybe fun to try at times. I would go back and forth with them myself if it wasn't for one simple fact, they're actually helping to prove my point. At any rate, off for the night, take care all.

You do have a valid point and at the end of the day there is certainly a grocery list of things that BW Austin could/should have changed in order to make this game more appealing to players. Unfortunately, regardless of the objectivity and level of respect you formulate your critiques with, they will typically only be responded to on these boards with blinded over-zealous fanboyism that would not understand the meaning of the term "objectivity" if you printed it in bold/caps on a muffler and shoved it up their tail pipes. Going back to your issues, there's so much in the way of I/O psychology research and consultation done in video game design that strongly suggests you're barking up the right tree it is almost beyond dispute. But you're not going to find too many people willing to respect things like industry experts and analysis on these boards so I would recommend not posting here. We're talking about the same group of fans that still argue this game is a financial success, which is so incredibly laughable I do not even dignify those people with a response. If you would like to post in a forum where mutual respect will be, for the most part, granted with intelligent/enriching discussion back and forth, I would strongly recommend you go to swtor on reddit. As for your suggestion, it is an excellent one and I respect you for braving the waters of these forums to introduce it to the few of us respectful enough to listen. Kudos... TL;DR You have a great idea, but I would take it to reddit...you'll find more intelligent/better discussion there.

Are you able to test on the PTS without an active sub? If so, I do not mind helping.

I really hope that their just oversights. If there's any intentions in their design failures, than turning a profit and being a success stopped being their goal long before they released the game. This game has turned out to be such a major disappointment, that it rivals failures like spore and hellgate...and it may even surpass them over the simple fact that they had a fool proof IP set in an era that empowered them to be a 6+million subscriber capable MMO. This game is going to kill careers and that amount of drastic change, at this point, is a good thing so long as James Ohlen and Daniel Erikson do not avoid the chopping block. Those guys are massive game design liabilities after this performance. It's sad to see more developers go the way of Bill Roper, but these two guys really need to if they do not shape things up soon. Get some new/competent blood in the development studio at Austin so we can see this game thrive the way it should. I really do not want to see EA get an excuse to cut the project cause their considering the ROI from this game to be non-existent. EDIT: To the OP, excellent post. Very well thought, constructive, and professional. I will admit those qualities can tend to go by the wayside as frustration mounts, which is the case on these boards and I do not blame anyone but BW, ultimately. I do think you left out a couple of other quite integral design oversights like mod/macro support and video optimization with the game engine.

You really need to pay more attention to how you introduce spoilers in the forums. You did have a spoiler link, but when you end up leading into it with "speaking of Kotor" and then you end up blowing the ending of the empire story line that I was most intrigued with before finishing...that's a bit ridiculous. Your lead in to the spoiler mentioned nothing of TOR, making me think it was safe, since I played through the first kotor...pretty messed up, you may want to edit your post so you don't screw over other people.

I am holding out hope for one of the following two to happen in response to his statement: He realizes he's undeniably and monumentally wrong. Or he gets fired. I am actually more inclined to see the latter happen. The guy is just way too much of a liability for the game's life-cycle at this stage. I also am beginning to think the same about JO. I'm unsubbed till things change. No point giving them money to get something right that should have already been done. I want them to succeed, I really do. But I am not willing to be an investor for their game development after its launch, which is exactly what I would be doing if I kept my sub going. However, I am happy for those that are still playing that are enjoying it while they wait for the fixes.

I have not had too many problems with any of the companions as far as feeling hate...until I played the consular. Do not get me wrong, I love Theran Cedrax cause he's my healer and I'm a shadow, but he's the first companion that made me want to beg BW for a "Mute Companion" sound option in the game. The guy is unbelievably irritating. He's also poorly written. For being a super genius, he's actually quite stupid when you see his logic play out as you level. And the fact that he hates any of the real mystic force/Jedi dialogue options sort of makes him feel like sand paper to the inside of your eyelid when you're actually trying to play a JEDI...rant off. Elara Dorne has had a very interesting story so far and is really cool but telling me to "stand still" so she could heal me when I already am standing still is mildly silly...but I suppose I am nitpicking now.

What exactly are you asking us to do? Keep playing and wait it out? As a person that has a relatively adult grasp on the concept of a paying customer receiving the goods/services expected for that payment I have no problem giving them time but I have a big problem with giving them time while I give them money. The solution to this, by the way, is not whine to them about fixing everything fast...that's sort of stupid, especially handled incorrectly in the wrong context. So the solution for me is cancel till they get it right, if they never get it right then I do not resub again. Simple as that. I get that their new to the MMO thing but BW's a big boy now, they do not need to be coddled by fans, they need to be treated like a respectable business providing a service or good. When said service or good is not provided in the manner expected (I am talking basic functionality by the way, not super high expectation type stuff) then they should be held accountable by the market. Hold them accountable long enough, the people in the studio that are making bad decisions get corrected and trained or they get fired and replaced, either way, the customer and business win. But to keep giving them money while we wait for them to "find themselves" is ludicrous. Could you imagine standing at a fast food checkout line waiting on your burger for over half an hour because the guy working behind the counter is trying to figure out whether or not he's made the right career decision? Or whether or not he should put mustard on your burger? You can insert any silly conundrum you want, I think you get the point. By the way, I am not intending to flame you with this at all, so please do not take my post as a silly little trolling response, I am being serious. I do very much agree with you that people on the forums really do need to calm down, regardless of whether or not they decide to stick around. Right now I just cannot sleep waiting for my wife to go into labor...so forum discussion helps with that anxiety filled element of being a husband and father.

Since this seems to be the most current thread that houses all the tunnel-visioned lacking any sense of objectivity fanboys, I would just like to say, "Hi, Fanboys". Hope you're having a great day! Cheerio, Rezakh (from reality, feel free to come back to Earth anytime you're ready) P.S. The devs really are not gods, as much as you prefer to worship them no matter how many mistakes they continue to make.

I really do not understand why this leap in logic is continuing to thrive in the MMO community. First of all, this game did not copy WoW in any of the major elements where it really counts. The UI is slow/clunky. There is little in the way of UI customization with no modding/macro support. No group finder utility. A general slower pace between levels which is a huge deal very few people are aware of (ask any I/O psychologist that consults for MMO's). Combat is a slower pace experience. Rewards in many of the games skinner box model dynamics like legacy/pvp take far more time than in WoW, in general (operations are an obvious exception). Artwork at times is uninspiring. This game is also very punishing on low end systems, which is a development staple point for all Blizzard games, including WoW...and the list can go on. This is the same story for any other MMO that has failed where WoW has succeeded. Everyone that keeps saying that new MMO's are failing cause they copy WoW do not realize how much they ignore WoW's winning formula. The first developer that really learns this lesson and copies it correctly, wins. The redeeming quality for me is the story telling, which is incredibly robust on empire side. When I am finishing in the leveling content, if there's nothing to do I may too end up taking off. We'll see what the LFG system brings.

BW actually said back in 2006 that they would not a game meant to kill WoW, but they did say from then till about 09 or '10 that they were expecting to compete on the same level as WoW which means they set the expectation for their game extremely high. As someone who's been following this game's development for 6 years now, BW sort of made their own mess with the unfair expectations of their fans. It's not really the fans' fault for thinking it would compete with WoW. I actually feel sorry for the masses that were expecting a solid title and got...well...this. Still a fun game, despite the plethora of design flaws and failures in execution, but it could have been so much more. BW has smart people working for them, they're taking this failure of their own expectations seriously and I have no doubt they will be fixing all the major issues by the end of the year. Whether or not that's fast enough is something I would rather not speculate on.