WELL, it's 19 pages late but I agree with you. It's funny too, because I have loved BW games since Baldur's Gate (though they've been slipping noticeably since they got bought by EA, ME2/DA2 were disappointing), loved Star Wars since I was a little kid, and I've loved MMOs since I played EQ when I was 11-12... and therein lies the problem. While I didn't really experience the "MMO virginity" problem since I got that same feeling out of EQ, SWG, and WoW, I am definitely searching for it now. I'm not one of those people that thinks it can never be found, but this game definitely doesn't do it for me. Which is sad really, because I had a lot of faith in BW to get it done. And maybe they did, for a lot of people. Just not for me. The game world just doesn't feel alive like it did when I played those games. It feels all contrived and boxed in. Oh well.

On the topic of skill as opposed to time requirements, has the OP ever heard of the 10000 hours rule? I doubt it's been scientifically proven but the concept is that it takes 10000 hours of doing something, aka repetition, to become an expert at it. Does not that apply to MMOs as well? People always talk about Starcraft (which is undeniably a very "skillful" game) and say the major reasons Koreans are better at it is because they play and practice more than "foreigners" (anyone not Korean). Sometimes 10+ hours a day. Doesn't the same apply to MMOs? Perhaps to a lesser degree, but still.

People playing MMOs for solo content is the most baffling thing I've ever seen.

not hard, since kotor 2 was a fantastic yet underrated game. This game will survive more than one year no problem, but will it live up to the expectations of its publisher and its developer? I don't believe so.

it took me about 2 days 10-12 hours if I remember correctly. Spacebarred pretty much everything since I'd leveled a consular before back in beta (was in beta starting last July, tried not to get too burnt out on the game).

The story portion is cool, it's just that, if you really really want story, there's plenty of single player games with superior story that also function better mechanically as well. I could go back and play through Witcher 2 since I've only done that once, or I could replay ME1/ME2 in preparation for ME3, or in a few days I can play Kingdoms of Amalur, all of which IMO have superior stories and mechanically are more fun (from a single player perspective) than SWTOR. The class stories, while different, are actually a minority of your overall quests. Most of the quests in this game (and therefore, the story element) are shared between classes and are the exact same every single playthrough. The linearity of this game is astounding in the fact that the order of planets is the exact same every single time (only differing from faction to faction). That doesn't really make replayability a very fun option.

GOOD THING THAT LEVELING SURE LASTED A LONG TIME oh wait If the best part of your game is located in the finite leveling process I think you might be doing it wrong. Where's all the story at 50?

WoW had that, in vanilla and BC. They removed it in WotLK at the behest of the "community". The terminology I see being used for this new style of MMO is "game lobby" MMO. It's basically like using a game lobby for any other multiplayer game. You hit some interface options, it automatically takes you to the map you want to play, and you play without ever actually talking to anyone. SWTOR is pretty much that. PvP definitely is, Ilum aside since it's a complete piece of garbage, it's 100% through the UI. Back in vanilla and BC WoW, there was the queue system but you had to go to battlemaster or arena NPCs that were in specific areas. For PvE there's no auto-port or auto-group like there is in WoW, but it's pretty close. You never have to leave the fleet for anything beyond the two FPs on Ilum. That's what caused me to quit WoW, there was nothing left to force people to expand their boundaries. How many great players would, if they started today, never become the players they did because the game didn't push them? How many friends would I have never made because either they or I would not have done what we did because we simply wouldn't have had to? How many great experiences would I not have had because I could just sit in one place all day and never have to break my comfort zone, never talk with anyone, never expend any sort of effort? Old school MMOs sometimes made you do things you didn't really want to do, or didn't think you wanted to or could do, and you ended up really enjoying those things (or not, which is totally OK). Today's MMOs cringe at the thought of having someone do something they might not enjoy, or depriving someone of something simply because they don't want to try. I guess that's progress.

or any type of rated pvp (rated warzones work just fine), though I would prefer arena as well. Then make it the primary form of PvP progression with all new tiers of PvP gear being obtained specifically through success in rated PvP through a token/point system where you earn points based off your rating every week. Basically, BW just needs to copy paste WoW even more, they already did it with PvE so why not? This completely negates all the valor exploiting and creates an environment where legitimate competition can take place

Sitting at 11% expertise project only ever crit for 5k+ with stacked consumables. Now you're lucky to get 5k.

From WoW, have grown more and more disenchanted with Blizzard since mid-WotLK, don't have an active sub. Unfortunately SWTOR plays very similar to Cataclysm so I'm debating on whether or not to pay for a subscription. I certainly won't be going back to WoW since I don't enjoy it anymore, however SWTOR hasn't been that exciting either.

CTRA had boss mods back in vanilla and DBM was renamed (originally La Vendetta Boss Mods, after the creators guild). Also, Bigwigs was around in BC. Here's an example of DBM (la vendetta) from well before the date listed on curse http://www.gamefront.com/files/6745189/Deadly_Boss_Mods__La_Vendetta__v2_40 Doubt curse is very accurate with when mods were actually started or created. edit: Here's an even better example from my own personal screenshots, june 07, showing both boss mods and a threat meter. They existed in vanilla as well, trust me. http://i.imgur.com/fBEbP.jpg

With 25 man, environmental issues are exacerbated because you're working in the same area of space with over twice as many people, so fights with large AOE or things of that nature make it far easier to make mistakes on 25 man, meaning they need to be more recoverable. An example would be Defile from the Lich King fight. Same amount of space, more than 2x the people, more chances that someone stands in a defile too long. Some fights are harder on 10, some are easier. The organizational aspects of 10 man are far far easier assuming good class balance in PvE. Raid stacking is something that I don't consider as that's a luxury usually only available to top tier guilds regardless of their chosen raid size (hard to get willing bench warmers if you're not at the extreme cutting edge of progression).

what I read: "I'm tired of losing, so instead of doing something about it myself, I'm going to quit until BW does something about it. I hate having to interact with other human beings and I shouldn't have to!" Is it seriously that hard to find 3 other good people? To talk to other human beings? Is it that onerous a task? If you don't like losing, you have options available to you to prevent that. Sad thing is, BW probably will eventually remove the ability to queue as a group because they don't want people to actually have to try.

fixed that for ya. I can't stand EVE. At least in other MMOs the gap between players can be closed relatively quickly if the new player is skilled.

Because the good side of this game ends as soon as you hit 50. The story, quests, and voiceovers pretty much disappear! Listening to the dude at the start of every Alderaan WZ or Huttball or Satele at the beginning of voidstar gets old after a while. Watching the ship get attacked at the start of EV EVERY TIME YOU ENTER THE INSTANCE is pretty annoying, actually. Listening to Soa's dialogue every time you pull him also gets old; I really don't care that Korriban was your crown and cradle dude, you've told me like fifty times already. Most of the flashpoints that I've done have been pretty story light. Companions aren't usable in raids or PvP or full 4 man groups so no one gives a damn about them. Congrats, they're useful for all those times you actually leave the fleet and go back to leveling planets by yourself, which is pretty much never! Crafting is still pretty fisher price in this game, it's certainly not the most complex or innovative crafting to ever appear in an MMO, nothing to get that excited about. So basically the good parts of this game end up being pretty much worthless after a point. The leveling was cool and all, but that only lasts so long: Specifically, until you hit 50. Which really isn't that hard, so this notion that people "rushed" to 50 when the game has been out for 5 weeks is pretty ridiculous. In a modern day MMO leveling tends to be incredibly quick and easy, it's not like this is EQ1 or Jedi in pre-CU SWG.

and this is the major problem with this game. All the "innovation" is directly related to the leveling process, a process that, EVEN IF YOU SIT THROUGH EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF DIALOGUE AND THINK OUT EVERY RESPONSE, is finite. It ends. You hit max level. And once you hit 50, your class story is done. It's gone! There's no more! Sometimes even before you hit 50. The whole "story" pillar is pretty much completely nonexistent at max level. So you hit 50, regardless of how long it took you, and the game is almost an exactly copy of WoW minus a few features that I really don't give a damn about (like RDF, I actually enjoy being required to interact with my fellow players) and a few features that I do give a damn about (Rated/Ranked PvP and gear that doesn't require hitting the jackpot on a slot machine). You raid (no story involved), you do some meaningless pvp to rank up in a system that doesn't reward skill in the slightest (it's worse than some people's ridiculous perceptions of arena, trust me), maybe you do a heroic or two and most of them have almost no dialogue choices or compelling story elements. There's a reason I quit WoW: Because at max level, the game is a snoozefest. You never have to leave your capitol city (just like SWTOR! never have to leave the fleet), world PvP is reduced to one zone in the entire game and is completely meaningless (ILUM ANYONE?), and I really dislike the modern era WoW raid system of multiple raid sizes for the same content and multiple difficulty levels for the same content (HEY LOOK SWTOR IS THE EXACT SAME YET AGAIN). I wanted something different from WoW. The leveling was fairly different, and it was fun WHILE IT LASTED. The endgame has been a total disappointment. Also, stop saying "DONT RUSH TO 50", the game's been out for 5 weeks at this point, my mom could have hit 50 by now and she doesn't even know how to copy and paste in Microsoft Word. This isn't EQ1 here bros, it's not that hard or time consuming to level.

I use an imperator right now, but I used to use a g9 and honestly I'd probably use that over anything else. Need to get a new one.

Not full server forums, still a joke. Bioware: Doing the absolute minimum possible to keep subs.

because the industry standard for AAA MMOs is world of warcraft. 200k wasn't even acceptable for SWG and that was released in 2003, the world has changed and if you put as much money time and effort into a game as Bioware did with this one anything less than 1mil is a joke. EA has said that the game will be "profitable" with 500k subs, but let's be honest here, EQ1 had over 500k subs at one point.

Because despite playing beta for 6 months I had unrealistic hopes as to what this game could be. I am, of course, sorely disappointed. My own fault. Bioware has taken a massive downhill tumble since the release of dragon age 2. :|

Here's something to try then: Assuming you actually believe I cheated, you can have your guild all report me and if I actually did cheat, judging by the hair trigger bans Bioware handed out to all those folks who went to Ilum too early, I will be banned. Now, I'm going to also assume that you already tried this, and as I am presently not banned, the simplest explanation available is that I did nothing wrong. Also the correct answer, since I was gone for most of the first day of early access and for various other reasons. Now, if you actually bothered to research the whole warzone "exploit" you're referring to (do you even know what it was?) you'd probably stop slapping your dick on your keyboard. If you want to know more, I can further "enlighten" you (aka **** on your face). Feel free to ask!

we rarely rarely get it. It's all void star and alderaan. I like huttball myself, it requires a different sort of teamwork than the other two. Alderaan would be my favorite if it didn't have a million issues, I get more framerate lag and ability delay there than anywhere else. It's pretty clear the game requires more warzones though, three is not enough as they get old and boring very quickly. Also needs rated warzones, current system only rewards time invested instead of skill and that doesn't interest me in the slightest since I have school+work+some semblance of a social life. I'm still only rank 42 and probably will not hit rank 60 within the next month.

The largest REAL PvP you'll see in this game is 8vs8 in Warzones, Ilum even after the changes is a complete joke as most servers have insane population imbalances and will never be considered legitimate skilled PvP. 3v3 isn't exactly a far stretch from 8v8.

Didn't read but absolutely support regardless, the current PvP system is a joke, does not reward skill in the slightest, only time invested. Ranked/rated PvP of ANY SORT is an absolute necessity, in my opinion.