Good rwz teams coordinate their stun/cc's with dps burst. Their healer and tank will stun/mezz the opposing healer/tank in order to get an isolation on the most vulnerable enemy dps. They will have 2-3 GCDs to Smash/Ravage the enemy dps with both Smash Monkeys - or about 30k of damage. Assuming the target starts out with 75% health (a typical health level in the midst of a fight), it will be problematic for the target to survive. This is why Mara dps is the preferred platform. When the hammer comes down on a Mara, he can pop Undying Rage and/or Camo and escape. The ability to defend against coordinated enemy burst is key in rwz. Arsenal actually has decent 1v1 defensive capabilities. But against coordinated enemy attacks, Arsenal wilts.

It strikes me as a bit odd for a Net-speak festooned forum to be complaining about regional dialetic-speak.... As for the changes, at least we see movement in the right direction. I am a bit mystified about why Merc Pyro/Commando Assault gets fewer buffs than PT Pyro/VG Assault, given that it common knowledge that the Merc/Commando version is far worse.

This is the problem. In truth I feel pretty confident piloting my Arsenal vs. a single melee who tunnel visions on me. But only bad teams will split off to four 1v1s. When two melee attack an Arsenal, the Arsenal dies without causing any meaningful damage on the attackers and without causing any meaningful delay on the attackers. Which means that very rapidly your teammates are 3v4 and you can't come back from that against a competent enemy team. In general arenas will sharpen the focus on class (im)balance. What could be hidden in a 8v8 matchup (aka. carry a weak teammate if you have superiority elsewhere), becomes much more exposed when you only have 3 teammates to carry you.

Is all hope lost? Can an old dog never learn new tricks? Who knows....

I don't think the devs are biased. They are just overwhelmed. The combat system in this game is more complex by far than in most MMOs. It's part of the reason many players like SWTOR. But it also makes the combat system harder to fully understand. Your average dev is a hard working, well intentioned person. He puts in 50+ hours a week at his job and if he is lucky gets in 10 hours of PvP. Maybe. It's just not enough to fully understand class balance. So what do they do? They rely on objective rather than subjective criteria. The problem is that they chose a flawed metric - meta averages. Meta averages in this game will always underestimate the power of FotM classes. FotM classes are by definition filled with players new to the class who are still developing their gear and skill. The meta averages are thus lower than would be the case if player quality were constant across subclasses. This is why Rage/Focus repeatedly got buffed when the player base already thought they were OP. Reliance on a flawed decision making tool makes even the smartest person a knave. I've personally seen this happen in hedge fund management and investment banks with billions of dollars at stake. And this is what happened in SWTOR. And yet the choice to use objective criteria is the right one. BW just chose the wrong metric. BW needs to rip out the code collecting meta average data and replace it with code collecting which subclasses are used by winning ranked pvp teams and pve teams that beat the final boss in S&V NiM. These are proxies for the best players in PvP and PvE. Subclasses that are overrepresented in those data sets are by proxy OP. This is the answer. Until BW does this, all attempts at class balance will devolve into which subclasses whine the loudest (subjective criteria) or which classes have the most net immigration flows (meta averages).

The problem is that the few remaining Vanguard dps are really good ones. So Vanguard Assault meta averages are off the charts. The few times I play my PT Pyro, it is fairly trivial to have the highest damage output on my team. But I know that the same thing would have transpired on my Smash Monkey. The difference is that my Smash Monkey's high scores are masked by scads of low scores from undergeared, FoTM Rage/Focus players.

Are you out of your freakin' mind? Merc Pyro/Commando Assault is the weakest pvp subclass in the game. And arguably the weakest pve one too. In contrast Lethality Operative goes more damage, more heals AND has more utility for pvp purposes.

This is true. Which is why the devs shouldn't listen to what the player base SAYS. They should look at what the player base DOES. Instead of listening to gripes/begging from the class representatives, BW should look at which classes are used by teams that win ranked warzones. Those classes that are overrepresented are by proxy the best measure of what the player base views as the best pvp classes. Similarly BW should measure which classes are used by pve teams that beat NiM S&V. Those classes that are underrepresented are by proxy the best measure of what the player base views as the worst pve classes. BW has the means to measure this. Instead they persist in using flawed metrics like meta averages to guild class balance.

Translation: If your class is underperforming, just be happy you can be carried by your teammates. This is the worst attitude possible for the BH and Merc community. Right now at least the Arsenal is viable for high end pve. But what about Merc Pyro? Worst class in the game for pvp. And arguably the worst for pve too. If you have a Merc Pyro in your raid group, are the other (non-Merc Pyro) players happy? At least they are good teammates willing to carry their hapless friend.

Prior to 1.6, the devs indicated class balance changes would be made in 1.6. When 1.6 hit, virtually no class balance changes were made and the devs said they'd make the changes in 1.7. Needless to say no meaningful changes were made in 1.7. A similar pattern has established itself for the post 2.0 patches. The fact is that the devs don't like making class balance changes. Whatever changes they make are unpopular. They have recognized that a better strategy is simply to tell the player base that they are working on class balance changes for the next patch. Always the *next* patch.

lol....

>Vanguards are terrible? No. You have a perception problem.

I use Missile Blast. There. I said it. I use it when I have zero heat built up and am pursuing/kiting an enemy player and HSM, RS and ED are on cool down. That having been said, it gets used perhaps 4-5 times in a match. It isn't significant. My view is that MB should have its AoE capabilities increased. All non-AoE classes need better AoE abilities to put them closer to par to smash monkeys. This is the logical way to do it for Mercs. Have it do the amount of damage it currently does to the primary target, to all targets. For Merc Pyros it should also trigger CGC on all targets. Now MB matters. It still shouldn't be spammed due to its heat cost. But now it is useful.

The response of the devs would have been the same no matter how the question was asked. There is a fundamental disconnect here - the devs use different criteria to judge which classes are OP than players do. Players use ingame wz experiences. The expert players use ranked warzones in particular to determine the viability of classes. The devs don't do this. The devs use SWToR's ingame stat collection system to determine the viability of classes. Classes that outperform with higher meta averages are viewed as more powerful. However these meta averages do not take into account variances in player quality. Highly unpopular classes such as Merc Pyro or PT Pyro are nowadays only played by a handful of people - highly skilled people who have chosen to persist with their favorite class. Thus these classes have higher meta averages, despite the fact that they dramatically underperform when faced by equally skilled players in better classes, for example in ranked warzones. To an extent, the behavior of the devs is understandable. They work hard at their jobs. They probably put in 50+ hours a week. They will be lucky if they get in 10 hours a week of competitive pvp. Compare that to the top players who can log 40+ hrs of pvp a week. So the devs can't possibly have the same level of competency/awareness of class balance that the top players do. Yet if they ask the player base which classes are underpowered, all the players say, "MINE!". So the devs fall back on objective rather than subjective criteria. Hence the use of meta averages. But meta averages are highly flawed as shown above. The devs need to switch to using better objective criteria. For example their ingame stat collection system could record the advanced classes used by winning teams in ranked pvp. The most heavily used classes are by close proxy, the classes most favored by the top players. Ergo the ones that are OP. The use of more accurate objective criteria would significantly improve class balance.

^ This. In the field of psychology, arriving at a false conclusion because of overweighting the significance of a recent personal experience is called, cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is widespread in MMOs.

It could be worse. You could be trying to use your Merc dps for pvp! LOL....

There isn't going to be any meaningful change for Merc dps in 2.4. BW believes the classes are all essentially balanced now. Whatever changes occur will be cosmetic appeasements to the player base. For instance reducing heat cost of Flamethrower from 25 to 24 and reducing damage slightly. Read into that what you will. That's the situation.

Well, as bad as it is for PT Pyro, you guys could have it worse. You could be a Merc Pyro! LOL.

Well, the short range doesn't help, but in confirmation of your view, just look at Merc Pyro. It is even worse than PT Pyro and it has the longer range...

Just more confirmation of what I have been saying all along. BW won't buff PT because in BW's mind PT are OP. According to BW they were OP in 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 2.0 and all the way through 2.3. And BW's has the numbers to prove it (according to them). And they do in a way. The meta average numbers for PT Pyros is off the charts. That's because only 1 or 2 players per server still play them and they are very good players. In contrast numberless hordes of bad players play snipers, smash monkeys, sorcs, op healers, assassins, etc. Their meta averages will never approach those of PT Pyro. So PT Pyro *MUST* be nerfed according to BW's logic. Bottom line here: once a class gets nerfed, it will always get nerfed. That's because the first nerf drives away the weakest players in that class. Nerfs cause meta averages for the class to RISE. Which causes more nerfs. Which causes even higher meta averages via more abandonment by weaker players. The players who stay in the class are the most stubborn, geared, dedicated players. That's why the meta averages for PT Pyro look so good. Nothing will ever change here until the class is abandoned by everyone. And I mean EVERYONE. Look at the post above mine: The guy luvs his class. He's literally loving it to death.

Rage/Focus is not overpowered. It is the only dps class currently that can output anywhere near a healing subclass. Rather all the other dps classes are underpowered.

Actually it can. The reward for a stealth dps person who can successfully approach a target while cloaked is a burst of damage. There is essentially no risk to attempting this maneuver. This is why, once 4v4 arenas come into play, everyone will use all stealth teams. It would be stupid not to. Other dps subclasses face meaningful risk/reward trade-offs. Melee dps must close to short range to do their superior damage, thereby increasing their risk to enemy attacks. Most ranged dps suffer increased risk from standing still to cast their big attacks. It isn't a coincidence that the most popular ranged dps class (snipers) is structured so the risk they face from standing still is mainly negated. Misbalancing of each classes risk/reward trade-offs is central to the current class imbalances.

You need to be careful here. The immediate use of Stockstrike after you are rooted with a Force Leap is of no value since you can not get any separation from your enemy. And using Stockstrike plus Hold the Line is dubious since the melee will just use Intimidating Roar and after that is up he can easily maintain 10m range to you for the remaining 4 seconds of Hold the Line. So now you'll wasted two good defensive abilities and the melee only used an ability that he'd otherwise never use against a ranged dps.

Merc Pyro should have Missile Blast put CGC on all affected targets. PT Pyro has an AoE CGC ability. Merc Pyro needs one too. In general my view is that all the single target dps subclasses need enhanced AoE attacks. They need a LOT more damage output to put them on par with healers. And increased AoE damage is the way to do that without reducing TTK and without adversely affecting PvE boss fights.

Incendiary Missile needs to be used selectively. There are times when you WANT an enemy healer to waste a GCD on cleansing DoTs. But overall this subclass is lacking. The only silver lining is that Merc Pyro is still even worse.