I didn't respond to it because there was nothing to respond to; a content-less message with equal parts PR speak and Customer-Flaming. Yawn.

That's my next character name. RE: The "burst" capabilities. Having burst capabilities assumes something more than just your standard rotation. In theory, with the energy mechanic being what it is, you would expect some sort of ability (or combination of abilities) that would drop us into the second tier of regen; that our normal "rotation" can cause that effect is poor design, plain and simple. The combination you've describe it the same amount of healing as UWM+UWM+EMP, only .5s faster. You really want to call a .5s difference a "capability"? Additionally, because of the energy expenditure in that time frame, you're unlikely to be able to recover from doing that more than once. Burst capability is meant to be costly - in either resources or planning - but not lethal. You burn off HoT stacks or cash in your UH stacks in combination with a 25-35 energy ability. You've just burned off a lot of resources - and you had to plan to be able to do that to have the HoT active/UH available - but you can continue healing through the fight at this point. Sure, a 2-min CD "reset" button functions to let you go OOE without consequences. However the long cooldown means you can do this 2 times in fight; most boss fights have more than two instances of dealing significant burst damage. This isn't a real choice, it's one you've manufactured. KP is only useful approximately never. You gain .5s at the cost of 20 energy and a UH. There's nothing effective about that outside of an emergency situation; it's only viable in an emergency situation if you don't plan on actually surviving the burst to continue healing. That said, it might be an actual choice with the addition of a third UH in 1.2, though still unlikely given the energy costs. Compared to what exactly? The KC buff sounds nice on it's face, but it fails to solve any of the practical problems I've previously complained of: namely that you still cannot displace a Sage's AoE heal from a group. The 4-target limit + 15sec CD (say nothing for the lack of smart healing) effectively means that the Sage's AoE will continue to dominate end-game content. Sure, maybe more Flashpoint parties will be interested in taking a Scoundrel with them - and that is something - but it doesn't address real end-game viability. This is the most unforgivable part IMO - though it really does support your assertions about Bioware's view of hard = better - as healing will continue to be flat out boring. Upon reflection I feel like we overreached in trying to get the Devs to actually fix the problems with the class - we should have challenged them to actually articulate their healing class design goals and left it at that (though I am more and more convinced that this cannot be done because such a design doesn't exist). Without those non-existent goals, the healing classes will continue to be the cobbled-together nonsense we see today.

Any class in this game "does really well" with sustained single target healing. OP, save yourself the trouble and re-roll. The Operative is a dying class, don't shackle your fun-time to that sinking ship.

I think the problem is they have people that don't like healing designing healing systems; the impression I've always gotten from George Zoller and his team is that they like DPS classes - it would certainty seem that way from the "design" - and so they have a difficult time comprehending healing in the way a developer needs to. And the only fix to that is to hire-on or promote someone who is a healer; if George Zoller likes to DPS, it doesn't matter how many time he plays a healer, he's always going to think it's boring. (That would explain his focus on QoL issues for healers, rather than mechanics). And in the back of his mind, he's always going to be thinking "I hate it when I can't out-DPS the amount of healing being done." I wholly believe that the Devs are reasonable and competent numbers people; they look at some data and go "See, it works." very competently. But someone with better vision than "Our numbers suggest . . . " needs to be designing the core area of the game.

I updated the title and my original post. TL;DR, it's over folks. I want to thank all of you for being so passionate and constructive on trying to get our voices heard. I like to think we had some success, but there was nothing we could do to get the devs to change their stance on healing. Cheers to all of you, where ever you end up going or doing.

This saddens me. You sir are easily one of (qualifier not entirely necessary) the best I've ever encountered in a decade of gaming. You've committed yourself to this issue with dedication and passion. I think more than any of us, Bioware's failure to address these issues in a thoughtful or meaningful fashion is a betrayal. I've sent you a PM with my email address, I hope to meet up with you in GW2 - at least those designers are capable of articulating their design decisions.

The only thing is that, given how poorly implemented the in-combat res is currently, you're really not missing out on much except in 4-man content. In 8 or 16-man you should have another class around that can do the same thing (remember, Operative/Scoundrel and Sorcerer/Sage DPS get access to the ability as well) and since it triggers a party-wide 5 min debuff on in-combat res, nothing is lost. So my point is: yes, you should have it, but you're really not missing out.

I support you. I stopped playing the game because I fell in love with the Operative, but don't like feeling 2nd class (I played a Druid in vanilla WoW, so I've kind of had my fill of broken MMO classes). So I'm excited about 1.2 and seeing the solutions Georg and his team have cooked up - while I doubt they'll fix everything, what changes they do implement should give us a solid idea as to whether or not they "get" the problem. Be strong!

Thanks for the hint. =) Those of you treating this as gospel need to step off. No one has thought that one fix was the only one, just that it was ignoring that actual issues as hand, misunderstanding what we had tagged as issues with the class. Still, I'd rather not bite the hand that feeds.

You get the point. Hey Capt. Condescending: You don't get it. At this point in time, using the words "TOR" and "Class Design" in the same sentence is a joke. Currently, the only bit of class design we've seen is "Make Sorcerer/Sage" healers capable of doing everything" while making the other classes weaker with a more punishing resource system. Yes, we get the play-styles bit. The Operative/Scoundrel play style is fun. But it's not viable. Catering to playstyle can only happen if each style is equally viable, Nightmare content does/will require min/maxing, and that means that any class placed at a significant disadvantage in accomplishing it's role is going to get left behind. No one wants to play a class that requires 30% more work for 30% less rewards.

. . . Challenge Cleared? The point of this post (a full February month ago) was to draw attention to an issue that seemed otherwise completely ignored. We were seeing bug fixes, content patches, and other classes' balance fixes with nay a word on the issue of subpar Operative/Scoundrel healing; as RuQu pointed out, this issue wasn't "fix this now!" but rather "Acknowledge this is a priority, and include us in this fix." You achieved the first part of this. You're out of time for the second. 1.2 is your one shot. I'm not being dramatic: everything I've predicted has come to pass. So since you didn't include us, I hope you go it right.

I'm not defending anything, I just don't tolerate ignorance very well; I'm equally allergic to misinformed whining. And don't worry, I don't play anymore, I'm just waiting on my subscription to run out and I've decided that this issue is interesting enough to keep my interest. Exactly, your example isn't an actual depiction/example of healing in this game, it's a limited situation that relies on several if statements, most importantly not playing with a tank that knows how to play. I've seen this argument used several times: You assert that the instantly cast mitigation of 4k damage - a low cost, instant cast ability that does something literally none of the other classes can do - is some how made worthless because it can only be cast on an individual target every 20s. (Cf. the Commando/Mercenary heal - for less than the total of the bubble - that can only be cast once every 21s, not once per target). Self-awareness, how refreshing. I wish I'd had the fortune to pick a class with a place in high-end content, but why take an Operative over a Sorcerer.

That's why I've formally transitioned to attacking with reason rather than reason alone. I can't recommend it enough, very cathartic.

Look, I'm sorry to be such a dick, because you seem like a nice fellow/gal. But your brand of bandwagoning can't fly; the problems with the Mercenary/Commando and Operative/Scoundrel classes is that they pale in comparison to the Sorcerer/Sage; allowing you to make up reasons why the Sorcerer/Sage is broken too detracts from that message, especially when the things you are saying are flatout wrong. That's a pretty silly example, given that 2s isn't really that much of a stop investment. If you can't stand still for 2s, you need to reevaluate how you got into that situation, not remark on the cast time of the admittedly OP AoE heal. Is this the "mo' money mo' problems" argument? Because that's my fav. "IF ONLY I didn't have so much money, I could lead a simpler, happier life." S/He remarked while licking caviar off of a gold bar. see also: IF ONLY I didn't have so much water in this desert! Oh woe is you, ye who must suffer the ignominy of having a "kit" of abilities from hence to choose! If only ye hadsth learned two play, if only, alas. I . . . I actually don't know where to start. Please detail a single instance in difficult content (FYI the one you cited is a joke, just like all non-NM content, l2p) where you do not have time to stop and cast for 1.5 - 2 seconds for an extended period of time (12s minimum). Your "bubble doesn't give back HP" comments are funny. Damage Mitigation is (literally) always preferable to Health Restoration. The fact that you can instantly mitigate 4k damage means the ability to keep people on the brink of death alive. Regarding your HM difficulties (I lol'd a little in my mouth): You mean the Merc that has an instant cast on 21s CD, and is otherwise a real serious plant & cast healer? If you can't clear all of the content in the game without flying through it, that's your ability as a player showing, not any deficiency in your class. Not true. Mercenary/Commando and Operative/Scoundrel healers have an emergency button that jump starts our energy given that, when we have low levels of energy, it can take up to 21 seconds for us to be able to cast a heal again. You don't get one of those because you have a fixed resource return rate and a talent that allows you to burn through a very powerful healing rotation for 0 force cost. Also, lets play a game called math: 40% base crit rate + 25% crit boost from Conveyance = 65% crit chance per tick 3 ticks = 4.2% chance to not crit. You think a 4.2% chance to not get a free healing rotation merits comparison with the Mercenary/Commando and Operative/Scoundrel 2min CD jump start? Only if you look at the Sage/Sorcerer class in a vacuum where the other two classes don't exist and you go out of your way looking for excuses as to why you can't play. Feel free to pack them up and send them to me. see also No. This is dangerous thinking. See, from a conceptual perspective, there are 3 ways to balance healing across roles: Homogenity - every class can do the same thing (no one likes this) Niche - each class has a specific role in which it excels at to a significant degree. Different Styles, Same Results - The classes each have different tools, but they can utilize those tools to accomplish any given healing role. Option 1 is right out. Option 2 is what you're looking to with your "Mercenary/Commando healers are great single-target healers" comment, but there's a problem: niche balancing is only viable under very specific circumstances: BOTH (1) Typical party-size accommodates bringing (at least) one of each class and (2) One of the classes is not capable of performing all healing-roles as well as or better than the other classes. Neither of these conditions exists in this game at this time: (1) Typical party size for end-game content is 8, with room for 2 healers (this might change if the 16-man content is made less difficult like intended, but even then you still face an exclusion problem on the 8-man); and (2) the Sorcerer/Sage healing class is capable of performing every healing role as good as or better than any other class, and has several roles which only can be filled by a Sorcerer/Sage - a veritable "Master-of-All-Trades" class. That leaves Option 3. Which means Mercenary/Commando healers need an overhaul just as extensive as Operative/Scoundrel, or they'll be left as a niche healer in a niche that doesn't exist. Only sensible thing you've said.

Oh yeah, and this is cute. They don't read about us . Get used to being forgotten.

Blah blah blah hit 50 blah blah. Just kidding! Actually, it's important to remember the Bioware designs the low-level content with healing issues in mind; specifically that you cannot get all of your healing abilities until 41. So yeah, in the 30s the probes do a lot of healing compared to incoming damage - that changes dramatically in the 40s, and obviously more so in endgame. In a sense, it's kinda unfair: You don't get a whole lot of warning as the the differences in healers until you've sunk 40 levels into a character (unless you come read the forums and listen to those of us who have already suffered for this).

That is exactly how I feel - it's why the thing I want the very most from the devs is an actual design statement about the non-Sorcerer/Sage healers - everyday.

Yeah, I'll warn anyone who's standing in bad. Once. Actually it's twice, but "Once." looks cooler! 1) "Hey, that's bad, don't stand there." 2) "Hey, you're standing there again and it's taxing me, so next time you're going to have to medpac yourself." 3) There is no 3. However, as hardass as I try to fake it, as long as you're trying to not do it, I'll keep healing you.

RuQu is much less a Guru and much more a Genie. Easy to confuse. As for Bobudo, he's a dirty rotten ship jumper, pay him no heed.

I've said it before, current end0game PvE difficulty is a joke. Joke City even. That's not a criticism of Bioware mind you, that they've made end-game PvE accessible to all level of players is nice (think back to vanilla WoW 40-man Molten Core . . . it was difficult just to get the people needed to walk into the door). But Nightmare is already tough enough to expose the flaws of the Operative/Scoundrel class; the amount of incoming damage during the boss encounters shows just how poorly executed the class is in comparison to the Sorcerer/Sage healer. What more, the Operations content in 1.2 is bound to be more difficult (e.g. if Operative/Scoundrels have trouble clearing Nightmare now, I would expect them to have a problem on Hard in the 1.2 content). Sure, an exceptionally skilled Operative/Scoundrel can succeed in Nightmare - it won't be fun, but it can be done - when paired with an equally skilled Sorcerer/Sage. I've also heard claims of outlier healing pairs, but without confirmation or the circumstances of those groups (exceptionally geared, skilled, previously cleared etc.) they are neither credible on their face nor are they actually valuable in refuting the fact that in literally every PvE situation, the group would be better served taking a Sorcerer/Sage You don't lose anything when you leave an Operative/Scoundrel healer on the bench - there is nothing they can do that would give the group any sort of competitive advantage in approaching or clearing content - and that is the problem, because the group does lose something by not choosing to take a second Sorcerer/Sage.

Of course. I don't mean to say that it's not worthwhile to use. The situation you describe is one. In conjunction with cast heals. And of course that 600 is without crit.

I am far less honorable than RuQu, and hereby disclaim all liability for any and all forgotten security tokens (As an aside: if you were to forget it, would you be able to use the iOS/Android app as a backup, or can you only use the token?). Yuck, am I no good at taking a thanks. Let's leave it at you're welcome, even though I'm quite convinced you've nothing to thank me for. As to Mr. Zoller's answer: the more I reflect on it, the more I am excited about it. While it initially fell flat for me because of the tone in the rest of the answer (god, I wish I could hear what voice you read my posts in, or I guess I could just tell you I sound like Tom Hanks (I don't but it would be awesome if you read my posts in his voice)), but I'm realizing that, without giving away much, he's hinted at a rather serious "redo". We'll see in the patch notes for 1.2; sure maybe I'm getting my hopes up, but I bet RuQu gets to change the colors of a lot of the items in the first post.

I would like to formally adopt these impressions as my own. The worst is when you face a Huttball team filled with people you normally heal . . . they don't even have to think before focusing you.

Two stack of Kolto Probe won't save anyone who is currently being attacked by anything. It ticks for 600 every 3 seconds. If someone attacking a player can't deal 600 damage over 3 seconds, they were going to lose that fight regardless of Kolto Probe.

That's a funny trick you pulled there, discounting your 4k instant cast bubble. And yeah, the Sorcerer AoE is so inconvenient, keeping people alive while they stand in AoE, how awful! I'm not sure that "easier" means what you think it means. It means accomplishes the same job with less work. But let's think about that for a second - all of the instant cast spells don't really do a whole lot of healing, do they. 1 stack of SRMP heals for ~350 every 3 seconds - that's not saving anybody's life when even auto-attack deals that much damage. PvP is already unbalanced in favor of the Sorcerer - typically a Sorcerer can double the healing amount of a Operative/Scoundrel without breaking a sweat. So who has it easier, the class that spams a bunch of weak instant-cast HoTs around hoping to get a free weak heal, or the class that regularly outdeals the first class by 2x in PvP?