This is good stuff, and I'd like to drill into it a bit with you (while we wait for RuQu to come tell us about Mercenary/Commando rotations ) Several items: 1) Could you please post your current primary/secondary/tertiary stats for completeness. Specifically, your alacrity rating/cast time reduction seems particularly relevant. EDIT: I see you did this except for cast time reduction - if I calculate correctly, thats ~ 13.3% reduction in cast time? 2) Do you count the two Kolto Probe casts as the beginning of the rotation or as occuring before the rotation. 3) My calculations suggest this is not energy neutral, assuming 0 alacrity and Stim Boost constantly active. (EDIT: with your ~13.5 reduction (which I refuse to work into those number below ) your net loss should actually be higher) Obviously you cannot regenerate energy in increments less than 6 (with stim boost up), thus for the rotation you described (KP, KP, KI + SP x 3, KP with an additional SP thrown in @ some point [note: Stim Boost doesn't count because it does not trigger a GCD and can be cast at the same time - just not during - any other ability]), energy levels should be: Skill | Energy Level @ Cast | Time at Cast | Skill Cost - (6 * ticks in cast time) | Net Cost [list=1] [*]KP: 100 | 0 | 15 - 6 (1 tick) | 11 [*]KP: 89 | 1.5 | 15-12 (2 tick) | 3 [*]KI: 86 | 3 | 25 - 12 (2 tick) | 13 [*]SP: 75| 5 | 0 - 6 (1 tick) | -6 [*]KI: 79 | 6.5 | 25 - 12 (2 tick) | 13 [*]SP: 66 | 8.5 | 0 - 12 (2 tick) | -12 [*]KI: 78 | 10 | 25 - 2 (2 tick) | 13 [*]SP: 65 | 12 | 0 - 6 (1 tick) | -6 [*]SP: 71 | 13.5 | 0 -12 (2 tick) | -12 [*]KP: 83 | 15| 15 - 6 (1 tick) | 9 [/list] So, these numbers suggest a net loss of 26 energy; meaning you'd start the next rotation of KI + SP @ 74/100 energy. Tell me what I've missed here, because that makes it look like you'd dip below 60 energy at 16.5 seconds with the next cast of Kolto Injection. I'm not saying it's a bad rotation (hell, it's the only rotation), it's just not really energy neutral. 4) I don't disagree with the healing amounts; I believe that, in general, our healing throughput is fine.

If I could quote this twice without getting in trouble I would.

Oh no you don't! I'm no Gandalf; I cannot keep the trolls and ignorance at bay all my lonesome (Notice to all trolls and ignorant people: You shall not pass). Fight them. Make the right amount of noise. I feel we are a bit like the Chantry from Dragon Age: "If only we could get every voice to unite in our pleas will our maker(s) return." Seems like an apt metaphor.

Let me get this straight: Your position is that equal work does not deserve equal reward. That because us Operative/Scoundrel healers dared roll that class, we're supposed to like working harder for less gain? Your position is that because I rolled and Operative/Scoundrel, as a healer, I should either: Accept that my harder work will be rewarded less than the efforts of another class and like it; or Reroll, in which case I'm a child. No one here is talking about ease. They're complaining about inequity. What class do you play? What if you were nerfed to be only 50% as effective as another similar class. What would you do? Would you work your *** off and keep playing your gimpy class, or would you reroll so that your efforts mirrored your rewards. If you were a group leader, would you take a tank along who only had 1/2 as much HP and Mitigation as a different tank? Would you take a DPS would could only do 70% as much damage as a different class? Your anecdotes about no one you know complaining (omg, not 4 whole players, all of us must be wrong!) are irrelevant. Either (1)you're lying, (2)they don't complain to your face, or (3) they like being underwhelmingly mediocre compared to the dominant healing class. Or, as has already been said: We have the numbers to support this assertion. We know, from a mechanics standpoint, that an Operative/Scoundrel healer can never do an equal amount of healing in end-game PvE; we know most boss encounters are significantly easier with every Operative/Scoundrel being replaced by a Sorcerer/Sage; we know that the most successful group strategies are reliant on that strategy. Feel free to disagree, but in doing so, answer me this: What can an Operative/Scoundrel healer do that a Sorcerer/Sage healer cannot do better? If you cannot answer this question in an intelligent fashion, without calling names and making accusations, then everyone should simply ignore you like the troll you are.

Because hardmodes aren't hard, and your friend still works his *** off. Seriously, leave him behind once and run with a Sorcerer instead. Watch as night magically changes into day. We have the numbers detailing this issue, you have 1 anecdote. Which one of us is being childish for thinking their anecdote outweighs the numerically-backed consensus of dozens (a sadly small number) of other players?

The problem is we're trying to bring light to a serious imbalance, and every anecdote that says "But I can do X" detracts from the seriousness of our claims. Perhaps the data actually suggests what you are reporting, but from the best as we can tell - toiling without actual data - non-Sorcerer/Sage healers succeed because of a combination of lucky RNG and the relative "easymode" of end-game PvE. This combination is expected to change with the introduction of new Operations in future content patches. They are expected to be more difficult. If that is the case, you'll quickly see just how marginal your "successes" and group-worth actually is. I'm not saying that you didn't benefit your group, I'm saying that they had no reason to bring you over a Sorcerer/Sage. I cannot tell from your posts, but if you're running 8-man Operations, then the need for 3 healers tells me that your other 2 healers aren't good. If you're running 16-man then the problem moreso is that the larger the group, the more room for under-performing classes/specs (man do I miss 40-man raids). Snicker snicker, an Operative can never get the advantage over a Sorcerer, even from a tactical standpoint. Strike that easier nonsense around me! I don't want - not for a second - for Operative/Scoundrel healing to become easier; I just want the rewards to mirror our efforts. If we have to do more work managing our energy resource, there ought to be some immediately tangible benefit to successfully doing that. (It appears to me that the intended benefit was duration, however duration as a benefit is completely negated given that the Sorcerer/Sage can accomplish that same thing with less effort while continuously healing). This could be as easy has having our tech power buffed by our current energy level, but without nerfing the Sorcerer/Sage regen mechanics (an idea which I am staunchly against, Operative/Scoundrels ought to derive some benefit from mastering a more complicated system.

Sleep has a funny way of doing that. No big deal - your heart was in the right place.

This might make you feel a little better: I can't tell if you were addressing the "not functioning" talents or just the general lackluster feeling of the tree in it's entirety, but we Operatives apparently made enough noise yesterday to get Georg's (limited) attention (he claims that it got his attention a couple of days before the post was made due to PR & translation, etc., but all the same). I often feel the same way, especially when it always feels like whining and screaming gets the fixes fast. The squeaky wheel and all. I'm a bit embarrassed to say that if you search my posts, you'll find more than a few times I was just raging. The problem is QQ posts are often met with trolls and "l2p" or "I'm an X and I can do Y just fine." It gets impossible to discuss any real fixing, and even if the devs do make a fix, it's usually whatever they can cook up (see 1.1 biochem restrictions on Exotech stims in an effort to induce less people to roll biochem in contradiction of basic logic). So in the end, I'm really proud of our discourse here in the Healer forums. None of the other forums have developed their issue into such a coherent and cogent set of issues and fixes. That's why I think we've earned a thoughtful response on these issues; because our "good behavior" can serve as an example of the type of discourse Bioware wants to encourage (I'm obviously biased in this respect). This is the sad part. The silence on our issue is turning away passionate players. Without being dramatic, since I've discontinued playing my Operative, I've logged significantly less time in the game. It's the class I wanted to play, and I feel I've been robbed; I'm not particularly interested in being forced to level a Sorcerer just to be a viable (read: desired by group) healer as it takes the fun out of having an alt and forces me to the sidelines while my group continues to progress. I am angry at Bioware and the Devs for failing to properly balance the healing classes and leaving me in this position, but I - like you - am under no illusions that my anger, nor my $15/month, are of any impact to the devs. So what else is there to do? Honestly, the only reason I haven't unsubbed is because I subbed for 3 months upfront. If my time was about to expire, I'd probably be gone too; that's how much this imbalance impacts my enjoyment and enthusiasm for the game. I get that Bioware is focused on bring new end-game content; fixing bugs in existing content; and attempting to appease the masses in all other respects in an effort to minimize churn and capitalize on their successful launch. What's frustrating is that, but for how superbly designed the Sorcerer/Sage class is at healing, this issue would be priority one, because healing in this game would be impossible, and then it would impact everyone. But my growing suspicion is that because Sorcerer/Sage is able to "cover-up" the inadequacy of the other classes, this imbalance only impacts those of us playing non-Sorcerer/Sage healers, and so the rest of the population doesn't care. And because no one else cares, this is a back-burner issue.

Stoppit! You're making me blush; though I agree that RuQu's posts as to mechanics are absolutely essential reading for anyone wanting to effectively investigate and solve these issues. I'm not leaving you, don't worry! The Operative/Scoundrel fixes are going to remain very important to me for as long as I play this game: I'm a healer, and I intentionally picked the class at launch because I believed it could be a really strong healer. I still believe that, although in an entirely different context now. I think that if the devs were to go through the Request Compendium and address each of the concerns listed for Operative/Scoundrel that the class could become an interesting HoT-based healer with difficult & dynamic mechanics. Given the difficulty of our energy mechanic, I would expect the class to have a lot of power in the right hands (i.e. the hands of someone who's learned enough about the current broken mechanics in order to be effective); it makes no sense to have a more punishing resource mechanic if the player cannot derive a meaningful benefit from it. It would be an entirely different class though; while all of my fix ideas attempt to promote the class design as best I can deduce it, I don't know if that is the design intent the devs have. If I've gotten it right, and the devs plan to develop Operative/Scoundrel healing in a similar direction as I would, then my intention is to resume main-ing my Operative as soon as the changes are made/. Other people who's been posting in these threads about how to fix Operative/Scoundrel healing have very different design paradigms than myself - and that is fantastic - but I know I'm not interested in playing some of those; but I'm also not all that interested in playing Sorcerer/Sage beyond the fact that I want to play the best healing class in the game. But game balance is important to me. When you have one class that so clearly dominates over other classes in a certain role (let alone multiple roles . . . ) then the game loses some of it flavor. I think you said it best in the other thread: I think the dev team has the best intentions with this game; that they plan to make SWTOR into a game that can endure the test of time. And I get that the level of overhauling required to fix Operative/Scoundrel healing is significant. But that's not an excuse for failing to start addressing the problem. We've made it very clear to the devs that we're willing and wanting to talk about this issue with them; they just need to start listening and provide us with a little guidance so that we can further refine the discussion.

A Juggernaut can heal normal modes. And lets be honest, you didn't successfully heal through those, your group just successfully carried you. Here's an experiment - stop healing in the middle of a fight. Watch how long it takes to wipe. Then get your Sorcerer to stop healing and see how long you can keep the whole group up in comparison. Yes, that's right! You're group barely needs you! You're so successful! You're not broken! Thanks for fixing the class. Also, your little mobility theory . . . well, I've said it before: So, I'll ask that you explain to me: how are your HoTs and Surgical Probes more mobile than an instant cast shield that soaks up ~4k damage.

In all fairness, a patch saying they looked at something but didn't make changes wouldn't make much sense

Winner winner chicken dinner!

Hate to break it to you, but as the OP, I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp of what I was asking for than you. Here's what I said: You'll note that I made a conditional statement, as denoted by the "If . . ." statement. However, I'll break it down further: If the trend of not making Operative/Scoundrel healing balance a priority continues; Then no healers will play that class because: It's not fun to be significantly underpowered compared to other classes, and; groups do not want to take a healer that is only a liability [*] If no healers play that class, then the only way to draw players back to the class will be to make overpowering changes (as opposed to the currently recommended balancing changes) because no other reason will be compelling, as: The previous players will have invested significantly in their new characters, and; Groups will have invested significant amounts of gear, developed strategies around the Sorcerer/Sage Consequently, should Bioware wish Operative/Scoundrel healers to remain viable, they need to immediately begin fixing the issues we've brought to light prior to releasing any new content, or it will be too late. I gave you 4 reasons they need to communicate with us. You retort with "But trolls will use that against my precious game." Trolls will do that anyways Sir White Knight. I don't want Operative/Scoundrel to be the best healing class, I want to be an equal class. I want my work to as equal as the work an equally good Sorcerer/Sage does; the truth of it is that the best Operative/Scoundrel healer currently is only as effective as a mediocre Sorcerer/Sage. I want to fix the class in a balanced fashion - go read my posts - I've never once asked for a Sorcerer/Sage nerf, nor for Operative/Scoundrels to be made over-powered; I've merely discussed as many ideas as possible regarding bringing the healing of Operative/Scoundrel healing up to par. This isn't my self-importance showing; I've made objective, reasoned arguments about the consequences of Bioware's failure to balance the classes. There were no other threads discussing the impending consequences of continuing to ignore this issue, thus I started a new thread. No where did I say "Hey Bioware, stop kicking my dog, drop everything you're doing and fix my problems!" Specifically, the problems plaguing Operative/Scoundrel healers is no longer my problem - I've all but moved on. I keep on this issue because I think the Operative/Scoundrel has fantastic potential, but I've rolled a Sorcerer, and I'm fine with that. The problem is you're taking this as a personal attack on your favorite game. Good news pal: I love this game too; so much so that I'm trying to help fix it, rather than merely flame anyone who isn't pretending that this game is all perfect rainbows and puppy dogs.

I disagree. adding a 3rd TA, while easier, would take a significant amount of challenge out of the equation and would likely make us appear overpowered. I'm not sure I agree with your numbers (I'm having difficulty parsing your statements, I apologize), but if I understand you well enough, I don't see how a 3rd TA will make that happen less. You'd just bank 2 TAs at a time (because why not for emergency healing purposes) and let KI generate the 3rd. You'd still end up with wasted procs, it's just the nature of RNG.

Apparently it's gotten someone's attention today, given that Georg brought the dev post total up to 7!

That and I don't want to play Star Wars: The Sorcerer's Republic.

First, I'm not asking the the class be made over powered. Period. Never have, never will. In every suggestion I've made regarding Operative/Scoundrel healing, I've done my best to make balanced recommendations that take into account the design philosophy for the class (as best as I can infer it from the mess we have) and the strength of my recommended action vs. the other classes. I'm saying that if the devs continue to do nothing, this class will flatline; thus when they later get around to trying to revive the class by implementing the changes we've suggested, they will need to make the class a FOTM healing class to draw us back from our Sorcerers, or there will be no reason to change back to the abandoned, ungeared toon (nor will groups see any reason to replace a Sorcerer/Sage with an Operative/Scoundrel if it's merely balanced - if it ain't broke . . . ) The Point of Communicating With Your Customers on Issues That You Don't Have A Fix For: So that your customers feel heard instead of ignored - Currently, everyone involved in this issue (that isn't you apparently) is frustrated and angry. Only part of that frustration is because of how unbalanced the class is - it seems that we all understand that balance is an ever going process that will likely never be finished. A majority of frustration and all of the anger (imo, anyone else feel free to correct me) is because we've been developing this discussion for weeks without even an acknowledgement of the issue. To give Players the ability to make informed decisions regarding their class choices - I doubt I'm alone in feeling a bit misled in the whole "All classes are equal in the roles the spec into" line, because that's what we relied on in selecting to play an Operative/Scoundrel healer. By communicating a design strategy for the class, it would allow those of us who want to be equally rewarded for our healing efforts to make a decision about continuing the play the class or moving on to playing the dominant healer class. To engage in dialogue with those familiar with the problem - You'll never hear me say I expect every dev to be intimately knowledgeable about every issue; furthermore, the more complicated the issue, the more likely complex the understanding required to properly address the problem. Unless a dev has played a level 50 Operative/Scoundrel healer, I don't expect them have as good of ideas about fixing the class as those of us "in the trenches" do. In this respect, the forums provide the dev with a fantastic opportunity to pick the brains of people who understand the class in ways they might not - indeed the ideas that people have proposed on these forums are likely the key to fixing the class; the devs ought to reach out to those who authored the ideas they like so they can pick their brains on implementation. Because we've earned it - it's true, we have. We've developed this issue in the one of the most comprehensive fashions I've ever seen. We've collaborated, debated and discussed a host of problems related to Operative/Scoundrel healing, and subsequently generated dozens of ideas about how to fix those problems. We've followed every rule; kept (in general) from whining, making baseless accusations and lashing out; and done our best to remain positive and constructive. In short, we've behaved in just the fashion the devs want the community to act when discussing issues, and we've earned a response that at the very least acknowledges our hard work (even if that response is "Nice work; but working as intended.") You're placing your faith too blindly in the developers: they are not super-human, and cannot be expected to know about every facet or every problem. All I'm trying to do here is let them know just how dire this problem is given the impending consequences of failing to address the healer imbalance. Yes, it would be easy to dismiss all of this as drama and hyperbole; I assure you it is neither: my intentions are not to troll, but to attempt to underscore a trend in this game that is only going to get further out of control if ignored. If the devs choose not to address the issue, that is their choice and I respectfully abide by it (though I would vehemently disagree); but until I see otherwise from a dev, I'm going to assume that they didn't develop the Operative/Scoundrel as a healing class just to see it fall-off ~ 2 months after launch, but that is what is happening, and thus the class needs to be revisited asap before it's too late.

That's not a dev reply, that's a Customer Service Rep; specifically one of the people who steward the forums moving threads, sticking posts, etc. It tells me nothing. It is not indicative of anyone paying any attention to these issues (If I tell you that you're doing a great job with your finances and that the situation is being monitored, do you feel any more reassured?); it does not portend any plans or fixes. Dev posts don't speculate - players speculate. All of our posts are pure speculation and commentary on the class; not only are several different posters approaching the class from different design concepts (my concept of the Operative/Scoundrel class is very different than RuQu's such that it would be difficult to implement both), but implementing all of the different ideas tossed out would make the Operative/Scoundrel ridiculously overpowered. This isn't about patience being a virtue; my (in)ability to sit and wait for changes is a non-factor: I'm already leveling up a Sorcerer, and if I get tired of that I can always unsubscribe (and I'm under no illusions they would miss $15/mo.). The difference is that if the devs don't act now they are going to lose this class. The balance is too far askew. They might as well remove it from the selection screen so that they'll stop getting complaints like this when new Operative/Scoundrel healers hit 50 and find themselves with no opportunities. If they start releasing new end-game content without (at least) starting to fixing the Operative/Scoundrel, there will be no place for them until the 1st expansion. If that's what the Devs prefer that's fine - it's their game; I'm merely fulfilling my job of pointing out issues.

I don't think overpowering changes are needed if they act immediately and begin implementing some of the ideas from the Request Compendium. I think that overpowering changes will be required if they sit on this and refuse to make any fixes prior to the 1.2 content patch, as Operative/Scoundrel healing will die off and you'll need a massive incentive to (1) bring back the people who left and (2) convince groups to do run an undergeared Operative/Scoundrel (because they don't have Operation spots) vs. a well-geared Sorcerer/Sage. Of course, this requires the assumption that Bioware actually intended the non-Sorcerer/Sage healers to be full-fledged viable healers. But balance is fickle. You leave something out of balance too long and it's not easy to tip the scales back - healers like myself (and you!) are migrating to the Sorcerer/Sage because the balance is so against Operative/Scoundrel healers and so in favor of the Sorcerer/Sage healer. But what about if it was only a 5% different (or the 2% that we were promised)? Would you switch? I wouldn't; too much effort for too little gain. The same is true in reverse, thought not as dramatic. After everyone has jumped ship from Operative/Scoundrel healing, what can you do to entice them to come back? What would the developers have to offer to entice someone to throw away the work done leveling up a Sorcerer/Sage to play Operative/Scoundrel again? Likely nothing short of a complete overhaul of the Operative/Scoundrel class. (there's a tangent in here that I thought was distracting, but didn't want to delete) But that's not the point. The point is that if Bioware acts now, they can put the class on life support while they work out what exactly they want to do with us. By keeping us playing as Operative/Scoundrel healers, they don't have to introduce later overpowering changes to induce us back. That's why I say they're missing their window. I get that it's launch and that they're in bugfix/content mode, but this issue actually needs attention now if they intend on not just tossing away an entire healing class. It's either start fixing the class yesterday, or be content with only having 1.5 healing classes in SWTOR until the expansion.

That is exactly what I mean - once you've leveled a completely different class just so you can be a good healer (i.e. just so you can play the game you want to play), having BW fix your original class to be a "good healer" doesn't matter anymore - this is especially so if they just do a numbers fix and not any mechanical changes. You won't go back! You have no reason to do so - you've got better gear, just as good (but probably still better) heals, more utility, and a spot in PvE and PvP groups. Myself, I'm at least two weeks out on my Sorc (I'm dragging *** hoping for BW to say they plan on fixing my Operative), plus an extra week or two for gear. That'll probably have me ready for raids on my Sorcerer around 1.2 and its (rumored) new Operations content. If the simplest of changes can't be tested and deployed in that time - specifically a fix to the AoE - then my Operative will likely be perma-shelved.

This is a fantastic idea! EDIT: Trifecta!! Sorry.

You're thinking about new mechanics, and that's the right direction, but the problem is a "healing well" ability would only be useful if it healed for significantly more (say 1.5 - 2 times) as much as the Sorcerer/Sage AoE heal; otherwise groups will still tend to prefer the "stay in the circle" mechanics vs. the "try and click the tiny hitbox" mechanic. I think it would be better if the well emitted an AoE effect that got weaker the further away the target was. Say it does 100% healing within 4m (melee range); 85% within 10m; and 40% within 30m (those numbers attempt to keep it from being OP, assuming the 4m grants healing on par with the Sorcerer/Sage AoE (both in healing done and tick time)). However, I really quite like the current mechanic of Kolto Cloud/Recuperative Nanotech. I believe it just needs its target limit removed and its healing buffed to ~80-90% of the Sorcerer/Sage AoE over a similar time-frame (18s is silly) in order to be an appropriately powerful 31-point talent. The reduction in healing is appropriate given the lack of movement restrictions on the target (the instant cast is still justified by the higher cost ratio incurred by the Operative/Scoundrel (1/3 vs. 1/6)), however the current disparity of ~50% less healing too much; the slower ticks over a longer timeframe is a bottleneck; and the limitation to only 4 targets is a severely limits our viability in 8-man groups. This change alone could save Operative/Scoundrel healing! Not permanently mind you, but it would be enough to staunch the hemorrhaging, and would not require the addition of any new mechanics, merely lifted restrictions on old mechanics.

I saw that, but I wasn't impressed at the response. "It's something we're working on?" Give me a @#^$ break. How hard can it be to make a percentage boost to healing, that does work on the mirror class (!!!!) work properly? They might as well hire me to solve the issue - I can't code so I'd probably get it done in about the same timeframe. EDIT: And I love your sig. Thank you for that.

Prove it. Name one area in which we outperform a Sorcerer (I don't even need to say equally geared/skilled because even a low gear/skilled Sorc can outperform us). Name one thing we can do that a Sorcerer cannot do better/more effectively that is of benefit to healing (i.e. stealth doesn't count because it is of no benefit to healing!). Tell me one time you have "kicked butt" where a Sorcerer could not have done a better job.

Not true. Operative healers consistently perform at about 40% compared to an equally geared and played Sorcerer in PvP (while both players get similar DPS out and kills) If you think being less than half as effective at healing as someone equally skilled and geared as you are is fun, by all means, continue to think everything is fine. Those of us who want to be rewarded for our skill and work will be over here, playing Sorcerers.