I don't know who you are and I'm usually very good at yelling at the idiots who yell in pvp. So maybe you're not that bad. Or your insults are not memorable.

I loved my old guild very, very much, but when our membership dwindled to only a few of us (and none of us with the strength to rebuild), I realized it was time to find a new home. There are several guilds that impressed me on our server, a few I had friends in--but one stood out from the rest, and that was Pax. The application process has only reinforced that feeling. Everyone is really nice, and genuinely fun to be around. Their application process is not short, but I think I understand why it's not short. A guild isn't just about skill or gear or loot--it's about personalities and getting to know one another. The rest of the stuff just comes when you've got a good fit. I love playing ToR, but I've been very pessimistic about the game's future for some time. Playing with Pax has made me set aside those concerns and concentrate on the postive. And the positives are fantastic.

I think it's great that you guys have done what you can with the cards you were dealt, and I continue to enjoy the game. I still wish there were resources for story updates, class stories, new companions, and gear earned by new quests and encounters instead of cartel points, but it is what it is. You guys have done a commendable job making lemonade with some pretty crappy lemons. HOWEVER, and this is petty of me: "cadence" as a word to describe your development cycle? It's terrible. Please get one of the writers you have left (surely you have at least one?) to proof these things and not Joveth, who I think started this whole "cadence" thing.

I was out of town this weekend, but I'm really happy to see the discussions here, and the positive energy (Force, I sound like a Jedi hippie) in this thread. Like I said, losing has never bothered me. Hearing trash talk about teammates really does. (FWIW, Panopticus, ty for taking this issue seriously when I told you about your recruit that was an idiot too. As far as I know, he's improved--he's only on ignore on one of my characters. And kids will be kids.) Maybe I was fortunate--when I started pvp there were no instructions and it literally took me six months to figure out *** huttball was about. (I am slow, hate football, and... well, I am slow.) But in those days, no one would publicly disparage anyone for this. I am still startled at things I've learned that never occurred to me--throwing the ball to ground for one. How to play a Force-leaping class. Poor Veiny never remembers she has an ae stun or a guardian leap until.... well, perhaps I share too much. Nevermind that. My Jedi Guardian is a total genius. Please vote for her often. Do not scream at her for running through the fire instead of leaping.... I digress. My point remains: quitting on your team is never a good thing. If you have 15 minutes to play, you can have 15 minutes to lose. Rarely would that time be recouped if you quit and requeued. Especially if everyone is doing the same thing. Thanks for taking this issue seriously, server. Kosiah/Veiny --Rep P'ink/Mekk--Imp The Jin Legacy

Yeah, I'd like to say I give you credit for this. I give everyone credit for admitting why they leave, and while I agree with Illusia that it's a lame thing to do, it's also understandable. But I ask you this, everyone who leaves because it's too much effort and too much of a pita to lose: when the win is too easy do you quit then too? I mean, apparently you're none of you in it for the commendations? You just leave when it's not a challenge, or not fun?

Ozz, for what it's worth, my spouse is the same. Might be a testosterone thing? I laugh at failure. He rages. Look, if it's bugging you, don't do it. I get that. But I also encourage you to take a deep breath and laugh. Because, honestly, losing badly can be pretty funny.

Yes, that was the one. I figured you guys were communicating, somehow--but it wasn't just the three of you in there. That match was insane.... and awesome. Not that I healed much compared to Chirascuro, I think, was the sage healer. Anyways.... Sometimes I'm wrong. Sometimes we're all wrong... which, Pax guy, is what I think you miss out on by qq'ing too soon. Thanks for your eloquent response though. I do know where you're coming from. I still think you're wrong. It is what it is. If everyone quit the second they realized they'd lose, there'd be no game. Hopefully, BW will make good on their promise of expanding the pvp. Hopefully, that will give us all a reason to keep doing it. I think it's actually a good testament to how well-designed it is, that we've kept at it this long, with so few maps. I've spent a few weeks now doing the slow, painful grind from recruit (and, what was more painful, from battlemaster that I'd already spend a really long time acquiring seven months ago), to almost full war hero with a few ewh pieces on four characters. This process has made me especially impatient with people who can't stand to lose. Seriously, that's part of the process. And I don't think Ms. Secura was saying that an rp server is no place for pvp. I think she's saying, an rp server is no place for the "**** newb" brand of pvp. Which I would like to be true.

Then you're part of the problem, ozz. I don't know why you can't get your head out of *** long enough to realize that. So I am just going to tell you: you're part of the problem. Do you have an issue getting 50 commendations for five minutes worth of your time? Because in a really bad group, that's about what it is. If the game goes on longer than that... you can find something fun to do in it. Try. MMO players in general will always take the path of least resistance. Whether it's leveling in the Overthere against a zone wall or farming easy points off pick up groups in ToR. There's always going to be that mentality. A challenge of game design is to account for that. In many ways, ToR does this quite well. But the no-penalty quitting wz is not one of them. Not that having a penalty was better, actually. I seem to remember they did experiment with that. But here's the thing: you always need new blood coming in or the whole thing falls apart. Complain about people in recruit gear, quit when you're going to lose, make it so boring for everyone in EWH that they don't play... and, guess what? PvP will be dead. I am far from perfect or expert, but I really don't want that to happen.

No, I want to have a discussion. Seriously, I do. I find it frustrating too, you know. Some of that may be showing. And I might have a hope that by calling people out on the whining, it might stop. Frankly, I'm sick of being called names by players who think I did something wrong. I'm sick of being mocked for my gear. I'm sick of hearing some of you do it to others. I'm sick of people like that dude yesterday, who said, oh what was it? "Go back to F2P u nwb dont u know u don't leave 1 toon gradng snow u nwb." Look, it's no fun for anyone to get rolled. Remember when you needed three medals and not one to get anything from a wz? That's about when I started 50 pvp. I think it was only a week or something it was like that, but that was also one time I stopped doing 50 pvp. Lol. It's my understanding that ranked single player was something that they meant to put in the game. Why that never happened... I dunno. Would that take some of the top-end pressure off? Again, dunno. Warhammer had a similar issue, where it became impossible for people to catch up--and yet they were stuck in the tier with the best geared. It's probably the reason the game failed. Or at least, one of the major ones. Since we're not devs, and we can't really make them do anything, or make EA spend any money on this game, can we as a server just work for a little less whining? If it's not fun, don't do it--but there are ways to make it fun. And nothing, nothing is more fun than actually turning a game around. Thanks. Mekk, Kosiah, P'ink, Veiny etc.

And don't even get me started on the gear blaming. You all should have been playing pvp when the divide was even worse. Oh, right. Most of you were. I will never understand the need to call players out publicly for their gear. If you're really that concerned, send a whisper.

It's remarkable how few of you are willing to sign your names, and yet all too willing to admit you're too afraid to lose because the game isn't "fair." Of course it's not fair. One suspects if you weren't so busy whining about guilded premades--(btw, I've been in pick up warzones where we've beaten ALL of the guilds listed--whether from dumb luck, or people on our side who could match them, no idea--certainly wasn't me.)--you'd be whining about something else. Seriously? It's that hard to just play the game? That hard to lose? As I said, some of the best games I've been in have been ones where people left after seeing the roster list, or after a teammate made a dumb mistake and the other team capped,. or planted a bomb, or scored a goal. It's not over until it's over--and, if you play your cards right, you still get valor, commendations, etc. So who cares? And again, leaving the queue penalizes us all. Of course people will leave for real life--I've done it myself. People also go linkdead. I 'm not talking about that. I'm talking about running like little children because the game isn't "fair." What really isn't fair is playing a game with a pack of entitled brats who are so afraid of "losing," (for which there's no penalty, btw, just less stuff), that they quit instead. Playing bad pvp can be just as fun as good pvp. You just need to learn how to do it. I pvp because it's a challenge--never moreso than we're losing. And Prisoner, if you leave a warzone because your own team is whining, you are missing one of ToR's great joys: the ability to yell at your own team for being cowardly wusses. Okay, perhaps that isn't a great joy. Perhaps it's just an annoyance. I know groups like that, where my team is huddled around the node trying to get medals are the ones where I get the least, since I just wander around cc'ing and dying until it is over. Kosiah, P'ink, Mekk, Veiny, etc. Jin Legacy

Then you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. PvP requires a population, not the same 16 Republic and Empire players going over and over again. If you want that, do a premade. PvP only works when there are people playing it. There are a finite number of people with all the gear they need, and a much, much larger number of people who won't even bother pvping because of attitudes like yours. Look, I could have all the pvp gear I needed too if I was gearing one player and not four. (Or if I didn't take extended breaks, but I digress.) As it is, I've pretty much geared all 4 in about three weeks. It's not that complicated. It is more complicated, however, when there's so much ragequitting. Are you saying that you can't stand a loss? Can't "waste" 15 minutes because you might lose? Can't figure out a way to get medals even with that loss? Doesn't sound like you're much of a player then, does it? It's also totally possible to play with a team with some undergeared players, play smart and if not win, at least have a good match. If you haven't seen that happen, I feel bad for you.

I have four 50's, both Republic and Imperial, and it's amazing on both sides how many times the other team caps something in the first minute of the game and half of our ops group ragequits. Why? Is there something I am missing where that's an effective strategy? I don't get it at all--it's not like you can't get points for a losing game. If anything, sometimes you can get MORE points vs. time put in because it's either going to be over sooner, or it will be a close match and you'll be fighting for every inch. Today I saw a game of Novare go from 96 vs 26 to us with the 26 winning. I saw a voidstar win at zero hour. I saw a huttball match go from 4-1 to 4-4 and the opposing team won in the last 2 seconds. That's what I call FUN. That's why I play. If I want to steamroll people and win all the time I'd... well, frankly, I just wouldn't play. I'd go do something fun. What isn't fun? Watching the entire queuing process be destroyed by people too lazy, or too stupid to suffer a loss, or put out any effort towards winning, or working with their team whatsoever. Make no mistake--I'm not good at pvp--but I try. I enjoy it. And I'd like to see it played. So less whining, more fighting, please. Sincerely, Kosiah Jin Mekk Jin P'ink Jin and Veiny Jin

Class stories. I've done 4, and almost finished two others in beta. I want to see all of them. I want to meet all the companions. Game mechanics--I think the classes are all pretty fun to play, even if the pve game can be a little bland sometimes. PvP--despite only having a few maps, it's a lot of fun. Flashpoints and grouping: I don't do it often, but when I have, it's been fun and challenging. Reasons I will probably stop subscribing soon: none of these elements seem like they're being expanded upon. I'm still playing, a year later, a game with magnificent potential that seems to have been completely abandoned by its creators. At times this is very depressing.

Okay, maybe it is a weird licensing rights thing. But there is still a lesson to be learned there. There's another point on Taris, where you're capturing footage from the endar spire. You get the footage and give it to someone. How hard would it have been to replay it at that time? But, again, nothing. You hand it in, get experience, and never hear about it again. Is that also a weird licensing rights thing?

I finally got a 4th character to 50 and replayed Corellia's quests. I was pleasantly surprised at how much I like the planet, even the fourth time through--but one glaring, minor quest stuck out--again. As it has before. I forget the name, but in Axial Park there's a quest to kill some Mandalorians, and as the bonus, restore some hologram statues. The statues are supposed to all be characters from Kotor, and, indeed, the pillars are all labeled: Juhani, Canderous Ordo, Mission Vao, etc. When you activate them, you just get pillars of light. No images. No codex unlocks. Nothing. It's stuff like this that boggles my mind and makes me wonder ***. How hard would it be to add images from a game you have the copyright to? I think I could do it myself in photoshop from web images in five minutes and I am no graphic designer. And why wouldn't you do that? Why on earth wouldn't you add lore referencing a successful game that you made? Did you honestly think that it wasn't needed? Is it a bug? Or did you seriously just not bother to make the models? ToR is littered with decisions like this. It may be that no one who made these decisions is still there, (I would hope), but, going forward, I'd just like to say--you have, despite all odds, customers who would probably pay you money to see more of this kind of stuff. Think. Give it to them. It is not that complicated.

I complain a lot, and am endlessly frustrated by what might have been, but I do think they did some things very right and I continue to subscribe, at least until I finish the four class stories I haven't seen to their completion. I've barely scratched the endgame, but I'm not that interested--the few operations I did run were all full of really gimmicky fights that felt identical--and there's no real incentive. Content that only opens up would be an incentive. Also a reason for gear. But this is not that kind of MMO.

I have another term I use for Dual Spec. I call it "lazy game design." In a world where everyone will respec for each encounter, there's no need to tune for any encounter, or balance class specializations against each other.

My tin hat theory is, the Disney deal is what killed this game, and it happened a while back in some boardroom, maybe even before the game's release. Maybe Disney doesn't want to be bothered approving content for an MMO. Maybe they don't want to have their IP associated with an adult MMO. Maybe they want to focus on their own movies--and creating products based on that Star Wars and not have the waters muddied with this one. In that light, ToR going FtP is just the last cash grab. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but I don't see any indications that anyone is investing in its future.

Sticking all the new and rare items in gambling bags, instead of creating content and quests to acquire them, is not a good sign, in terms of the game's future. I think it pretty clearly says, "we have no more resources to add content, but we still want your money." On the other hand, if there are people dropping hundreds of dollars in the cash shop, I guess they might be able to hire some staff again. But will they?

Sorry, it just keeps annoying me, the use of that word. Not that it's a bad word, it's just the wrong word.

I may be as well. On Halloween I went to a costume party and met a fellow gamer girl, who was dressed in a gears of war costume she'd made from scratch. My own experience is so Bioware-centric that I thought she was going for Shepard (despite the lack of an N-7 logo), and she was amazed I'd heard of Mass Effect at all. These times when I meet someone in real life who is as passionate about my hobby as I am are rare, and we had a good chat. ANYWAY... she's never played ToR. For one, she only has a Macintosh, and for another, she loves PvP. Did I know, she asked, that Mass Effect keeps releasing new pvp maps? For free? She shook her head ruefully. Me, I had another drink. No, I didn't know that, but honestly, as someone who's been hitting her head against the wall playing the same three (now four) warzones in ToR since early beta, that was kind of depressing to hear. It's not that HARD to make new PvP content. I played Warhammer and even as a game with half your subscription base they STILL managed to put in new warzones for special events, mix and max the ones available, and tweak their castle sieges. Hey... didn't you work on that too, Mr. Hickman? So what's wrong? Why is it so difficult to make some new pvp maps in ToR? Are you worried about balance and testing? That is why many games use a... test server. I think you even have one! You could use it! Do you lack the resources to make new content? Recycle some flashpoints! Or points on the map. Revisit some areas where a previous story happened... flesh it out, give us an epilogue, whatever. It doesn't have to be complicated. Here is a real question for the development team: why can't you put in some new maps for pvp?

People stopped subscribing when they finished the content. If you gave them new content, they'd come back. Please hire some people, get some kind of budget and make some new content. Other games do it with far fewer resources. It's not that complicated.

Maybe... and maybe not. What about the people who play Dragon Age and Mass Effect to get every ending and every commendation? Like most MMO players, I used to scoff at the idea of an end game that involved re-rolling alts. Now, I wish we had one. I wish you could kill companions--or get rid of them, or be forced to choose one over the other. I wish actions had real consequences--if not for the world around you (almost impossible to do in an MMO) than for your own character. I would rather play an endgame that involved creating my legacy with individual characters and stories within it, than jump around doing the same boss fight over and over to get some gear.

Keep asking for it. Keep demanding it. Yeah, other content is cheaper and easier to make, but other content isn't going to get people who left to come back. More storylines will. Perhaps ToR needs to figure out how to make them more cheaply, but they do need to do them.