the class is not the class till 50. honestly, if you had half a car built would it be the fattest ever zomg? no it wouldn't run.

i think most of these people going on the DAoC nostalgia trips are mentally blocking out the bad times in favor of choice memory, the game was never HALF of what you claim it to be.

and i've seen 2 sorcs or 2 bh's kill people before their stun wears off. The only difference here is the ranged dps don't get to dictate the fights terms.

as a scoundrel snipers are my favourite class to see on the other team, they have so little to peel me with and i can usually kill them before my 1.5 -> dirty kick stun is up. I don't know how the other classes do against them but i'm just not scared of them at all :/.

typical scoundrel game http://i.imgur.com/nGu9v.jpg

well now someones just going to link a screenie of a sorc or bh doing 300k+ hell it's an off game for my scoundrel if i don't get above 300k with 20+ KB's the real problem is the fact that with any class you can go out and farm numbers, in huttball ability to run the ball is really where it counts and quite frankly snipers don't have much to contribute besides being on the ledge as a pass medium

I think the first one would only add to the problem of cowardly play and making the typical op feel like their best bet is to just keep using hidden strike. You said you haven't played an op but if you had you would know that point 2 is already pretty nasty for us. You have bh/trooper that can drop high range detection grids and random aoe lightning circles already everywhere. Honestly i get knocked out of stealth alot, i'm not so dedicated that my soul purpose in life is to be paying attention to absolutely every detail around me. This would be a massive nerf to the lifestyle of the class, as your making the only class without a gap closer go farther away from the target. Firstly the third statement isn't true, the culprit is the opener followed by back stab, as for damage past that other classes can and do do better damage. I agree you can take power out of the opener, just put it back on the other stuff. It's already a ***** when i'm out of stealth. Snipers could use some pvp love i agree, but not entirely at the sake of ops, i'd rather see you buffed to be a massive threat when left alone at ranged but still be able to be pressured by melee. Stealth counter your class far harder than sorcs, but i think your survivability buttons need to be upped not our stealth reliability downed.

the problem with this is backstab and shiv are our "every other abilities"

thats why the further damage decrease would put it on a level more akin to that of our current backstab if not below it. also for an idea, give suckerpunch a 100% chance to proc that TA back and go with the 2 TA for shoot first and we get a more compelling rotation, that puts us using them alternatively. the more i think about it the more i'm gliding towards wanting a "combo point" set-up in which we can use TA to activate some sustain (pugnacity) some collateral damage (sucker punch on a 10 second rotation for no cost) and than once built up using the 2 TA for an ability to do a nice damage number. It doesn't even need to be shoot first really, hell throw in a new 10-15 yard shot that does middle of the road damage and can be used to apply flachette. Obviously energy costs would have to be considered and toned down a little to incorporate such a change but i think the reliability of the 2 point opener would be a reassuring change to how out of stealth works out.

agreed, it's going to become glaringly obvious after the patch that after our opener and back blast the scary part is done. At the very least we'll have more of a longer run of cc we can use to try and drag the fight to multiple backstabs which really will be the crux of our damage. My concern is this massive gap in time that we now have to fight toe to toe is going to allow us to be focused down brutally in 1-4 seconds by any sort of team play. Vanish is a good cooldown don't get me wrong, but a 2 minute cooldown is a very long time in pvp ._.

i would reccomend factoring 20% off the post-patch HS.

completely getting rid of the 3 seconds stun would be step 1, quite frankly I won't lament it all that much. Dirty kick does the same job BETTER, stuns for a second longer, doesn't bug out and leave their body somewhere the 3 seconds is wasted. step 2 would be to increase the shoot first nerf to 40% and remove its positional, additionally nerfing backblasts damage approx 20% and lowering their energy cost substantially. step 3 would be to raise acid blade/flachette back to 50% and add a talent where K.O use to be that allows the use of hidden strike/ back blast within combat whenever backblast crits. step 4 would be to remove the group stealth ability and in it's place put a shadow dance/ shadow step hybrid ability on a 2-3 minute cooldown that teleports you to your target, for a limited time making back blast crit and removing it's positional. depending on how our sustained output is at this point i would consider giving us a "marked for death" type ability that would increase damage a target took for a set ammount of time to make us group friendly. But not to a point where we are required, or ridiculous in pvp, something to the tune of 10-15% for 10-15 seconds. the numbers are obviously workable so don't get hung up on the percents, i'm aware it would change crit to be such a vital stat for us. I'm trying to think up a way the shoot first could synergize into combat a little nicer, perhaps back blast crits would now add a tick of advantage and 2 ticks of advantage could be spent to use shoot first as a non combat ability? feel free to add some imput they obviously don't like our burst so lets throw around some ideas to give back some sustained.

completely getting rid of the 3 seconds stun would be step 1, quite frankly I won't lament it all that much. Dirty kick does the same job BETTER, stuns for a second longer, doesn't bug out and leave their body somewhere the 3 seconds is wasted. step 2 would be to increase the shoot first nerf to 40% and remove its positional, additionally nerfing backblasts damage approx 20% and lowering their energy cost substantially. step 3 would be to raise acid blade/flachette back to 50% and add a talent where K.O use to be that allows the use of hidden strike/ back blast within combat whenever backblast crits. step 4 would be to remove the group stealth ability and in it's place put a shadow dance/ shadow step hybrid ability on a 2-3 minute cooldown that teleports you to your target, for a limited time making back blast crit and removing it's positional. depending on how our sustained output is at this point i would consider giving us a "marked for death" type ability that would increase damage a target took for a set ammount of time to make us group friendly. But not to a point where we are required, or ridiculous in pvp, something to the tune of 10-15% for 10-15 seconds. the numbers are obviously workable so don't get hung up on the percents, i'm aware it would change crit to be such a vital stat for us. I'm trying to think up a way the shoot first could synergize into combat a little nicer, perhaps back blast crits would now add a tick of advantage and 2 ticks of advantage could be spent to use shoot first as a non combat ability? feel free to add some imput they obviously don't like our burst so lets throw around some ideas to give back some sustained.

completely getting rid of the 3 seconds stun would be step 1, quite frankly i'm already specced out of it. Dirty kick does the same job BETTER, stuns for a second longer, doesn't bug out and leave their body somewhere the 3 seconds is wasted and doesn't completely fill the resolve bar. step 2 would be to increase the shoot first nerf to 40%, additionally nerfing backblasts damage approx 20% and lowering their energy cost substantially. step 3 would be to raise acid blade/flachette back to 50% and add a talent where K.O use to be that allows the use of hidden strike/ back blast within combat whenever backblast crits. step 4 would be to remove the group stealth ability and in it's place put a shadow dance/ shadow step hybrid ability on a 2-3 minute cooldown that teleports you to your target, for a limited time making back blast crit and removing it's positional. depending on how our sustained output is at this point i would consider giving us a "marked for death" type ability that would increase damage a target took for a set ammount of time to make us group friendly. But not to a point where we are required, or ridiculous in pvp, something to the tune of 10-15% for 10-15 seconds.

amen and god bless you sir. how long till people complain because they can't fight back due to shootfirst -> dirty kick?

so those massive 4.7 k crits soon to be 3-4k crits are the reason for all the upset?

it requires you to not be in combat..... which is the same as just you know pressing the stealth that doesn't just last 12 seconds..? i have NEVER had the problem of being such a monster in the 50's bracket that my problem was waiting on the stealth timer.

I would like to see us changed a little. fact 1: currently Ops rely on burst damage to kill opponents fact 2: that burst damage is being taken down dramatically fact 3: out of stealth op damage is extremely lack luster fact 4: we lack a gap closer to ease the periods in which we can't stealth Obviously current burst is a too much and if you people actually read most of the conversation going on there are hardly any of us crying to stay exactly as we are, However without some kind of compensation we will be dramatically crippled after an opener. so, lets change our sustained damage or our ability to skirmish out of stealth yes? There are a bunch of cool ways we could do this. Firstly, lacking info we can assume that K.O is still full resolve. As such it can be safely removed it serves no purpose and is actually detrimental to use. Instead lets take this chance to put in some sustained power high in the tree. For example why not a talent that further increases blaster whip's damage? Or even an ability to give more punch to Quick shot which would make it a lot more of a go to skirmish ability. Secondly, you took away flying fists proc damage to alleviate some burst. Perhaps with the burst toned down dramatically it's time to put it back in a more sustained format? say raise it 30-40% to add a little bit of oomph when were stuck punching, maybe even instead give it a buff that when procced allows the use of back stab/blast out of position for a limited time? thirdly, smuggle. This ability doesn't deserve a spot on my bar, it screws me over ironically enough and just aggravates your team. So if your looking for a slot to add some kind of utility replace it with that sorry piece of junk. In conjunction with some of our out of stealth power perhaps even change it to a "shadow step ability" or make it a proc that allows the use of shoot first / hidden strike in combat on a 3 minute cooldown.

okay lets get back to the core tennets of the problem: fact 1: currently Ops rely on burst damage to kill opponents fact 2: that burst damage is being taken down dramatically fact 3: out of stealth op damage is extremely lack luster fact 4: we lack a gap closer to ease the periods in which we can't stealth Obviously current burst is a too much and if you people actually read most of the conversation going on there are hardly any of us crying to stay exactly as we are, However without some kind of compensation we will be dramatically crippled after an opener. so, lets change our sustained damage or our ability to skirmish out of stealth yes? There are a bunch of cool ways we could do this. Firstly, lacking info we can assume that K.O is still full resolve. As such it can be safely removed it serves no purpose and is actually detrimental to use. Instead lets take this chance to put in some sustained power high in the tree. For example why not a talent that further increases blaster whip's damage? Or even an ability to give more punch to Quick shot which would make it a lot more of a go to skirmish ability. Secondly, you took away flying fists proc damage to alleviate some burst. Perhaps with the burst toned down dramatically it's time to put it back in a more sustained format? say raise it 30-40% to add a little bit of oomph when were stuck punching, maybe even instead give it a buff that when procced allows the use of back stab/blast out of position for a limited time? thirdly, smuggle. This ability doesn't deserve a spot on my bar, it screws me over ironically enough and just aggravates your team. So if your looking for a slot to add some kind of utility replace it with that sorry piece of junk. In conjunction with some of our out of stealth power perhaps even change it to a "shadow step ability" or make it a proc that allows the use of shoot first / hidden strike in combat on a 3 minute cooldown. Lastly our PvP dps set bonuses are sadly sadly lacking. I would really like to see them changed to something a little more linked to our identity and useful. For example: 2 pc: Increases damage dealt by Blaster whip and quick shot by 10% 4 pc: adds 3 seconds to flachette/ acid blade. and or a portion of the armor ignore back. Take these with a grain of salt obviously i don't want all of them but if bioware is sure they don;t want me popping in and out of stealth i would like to see unstealthed combat given a substantial boost.

on my juggernaut: trinket + adrenal force leap, force crush smash enrage force choke obliterate smash on my powertech unload autoshot (continue until dot proc for railshot) railshot if they are melee replace autoshot with flame burst for the same effect On my merc heaven help us all: unload tracer tracer tracer railshot auto attttttaaaack wee on my smuggler: stealth trinket + adrenal flachette shoot first sucker punch flachette back blast blasterwhip sucker punch vital shot the class is as complex as you make it, if you however are under the delusion that i only have 3 abilities on my bar than grow up. you on the other hand are the kind of people i eat for breakfast cause i'm betting you keyboard turn as well.

i can't wait to see what they do to you guys lol. And then we will REALLY see some tears on the boards.

as a scoundrel set-up for complete burst damage (high crit high surge high power) using red pill AND trinket, i can crit an UNSHIELDED sorc or terribly geared player for about 5.2k - 5.6k with shoot first, realistically it's more in the lower 4k market on geared people. You all can quit lying through your teeth about the 8k crits now, it went away with the buff stacking change. You can either acknowledge that this is a knee-jerk reaction and have a look at what similar classes were doing with buff stacking and lowbies or acknowledge that damage numbers are VERY DIFFERENT in the 50's bracket, this double standard **** is getting ridiculous. i'm more concerned now with what happens AFTER my opener, because if i'm critting for 3k on shoot-first than hopefully a 3kish crit on backblast, whatever i'm attacking is probably gonna have a good laugh put on a slow and use one of their neat coolies utility spells that leave me 20 yards away with no gap closer, and no way to keep pressure on my target.

currently smuggle serves absolutely no purpose besides exploitive gimmicky crap. And one second on an already "dodgy" huehuehue 60 second cooldown is terrible. and the 4pc is so ridiculously lackluster at a net gain of 2 energy (factoring regen) that it might as well not be there. Make the 2 pc a minor gain to scattergun attacks or blasterwhip and make the 4pc a boost to pugnacity or something. As it currently stands i'm not sure i even want my pvp gear :/

By all means nerf our opener down a bit, however. Give the knock-down an additional 50% slow for 3-4 seconds Put a little more power into our blaster whip and suckerpunch and or the proc on suckerpunch to even out our pve dps. If you want to get rid of the burst, put in more of the sustained.

brightwizard thinks he's special move along folks.