the class is not the class till 50. honestly, if you had half a car built would it be the fattest ever zomg? no it wouldn't run.

i think most of these people going on the DAoC nostalgia trips are mentally blocking out the bad times in favor of choice memory, the game was never HALF of what you claim it to be.

and i've seen 2 sorcs or 2 bh's kill people before their stun wears off. The only difference here is the ranged dps don't get to dictate the fights terms.

as a scoundrel snipers are my favourite class to see on the other team, they have so little to peel me with and i can usually kill them before my 1.5 -> dirty kick stun is up. I don't know how the other classes do against them but i'm just not scared of them at all :/.

typical scoundrel game http://i.imgur.com/nGu9v.jpg

well now someones just going to link a screenie of a sorc or bh doing 300k+ hell it's an off game for my scoundrel if i don't get above 300k with 20+ KB's the real problem is the fact that with any class you can go out and farm numbers, in huttball ability to run the ball is really where it counts and quite frankly snipers don't have much to contribute besides being on the ledge as a pass medium

I think the first one would only add to the problem of cowardly play and making the typical op feel like their best bet is to just keep using hidden strike. You said you haven't played an op but if you had you would know that point 2 is already pretty nasty for us. You have bh/trooper that can drop high range detection grids and random aoe lightning circles already everywhere. Honestly i get knocked out of stealth alot, i'm not so dedicated that my soul purpose in life is to be paying attention to absolutely every detail around me. This would be a massive nerf to the lifestyle of the class, as your making the only class without a gap closer go farther away from the target. Firstly the third statement isn't true, the culprit is the opener followed by back stab, as for damage past that other classes can and do do better damage. I agree you can take power out of the opener, just put it back on the other stuff. It's already a ***** when i'm out of stealth. Snipers could use some pvp love i agree, but not entirely at the sake of ops, i'd rather see you buffed to be a massive threat when left alone at ranged but still be able to be pressured by melee. Stealth counter your class far harder than sorcs, but i think your survivability buttons need to be upped not our stealth reliability downed.

the problem with this is backstab and shiv are our "every other abilities"

thats why the further damage decrease would put it on a level more akin to that of our current backstab if not below it. also for an idea, give suckerpunch a 100% chance to proc that TA back and go with the 2 TA for shoot first and we get a more compelling rotation, that puts us using them alternatively. the more i think about it the more i'm gliding towards wanting a "combo point" set-up in which we can use TA to activate some sustain (pugnacity) some collateral damage (sucker punch on a 10 second rotation for no cost) and than once built up using the 2 TA for an ability to do a nice damage number. It doesn't even need to be shoot first really, hell throw in a new 10-15 yard shot that does middle of the road damage and can be used to apply flachette. Obviously energy costs would have to be considered and toned down a little to incorporate such a change but i think the reliability of the 2 point opener would be a reassuring change to how out of stealth works out.

agreed, it's going to become glaringly obvious after the patch that after our opener and back blast the scary part is done. At the very least we'll have more of a longer run of cc we can use to try and drag the fight to multiple backstabs which really will be the crux of our damage. My concern is this massive gap in time that we now have to fight toe to toe is going to allow us to be focused down brutally in 1-4 seconds by any sort of team play. Vanish is a good cooldown don't get me wrong, but a 2 minute cooldown is a very long time in pvp ._.

i would reccomend factoring 20% off the post-patch HS.

completely getting rid of the 3 seconds stun would be step 1, quite frankly I won't lament it all that much. Dirty kick does the same job BETTER, stuns for a second longer, doesn't bug out and leave their body somewhere the 3 seconds is wasted. step 2 would be to increase the shoot first nerf to 40% and remove its positional, additionally nerfing backblasts damage approx 20% and lowering their energy cost substantially. step 3 would be to raise acid blade/flachette back to 50% and add a talent where K.O use to be that allows the use of hidden strike/ back blast within combat whenever backblast crits. step 4 would be to remove the group stealth ability and in it's place put a shadow dance/ shadow step hybrid ability on a 2-3 minute cooldown that teleports you to your target, for a limited time making back blast crit and removing it's positional. depending on how our sustained output is at this point i would consider giving us a "marked for death" type ability that would increase damage a target took for a set ammount of time to make us group friendly. But not to a point where we are required, or ridiculous in pvp, something to the tune of 10-15% for 10-15 seconds. the numbers are obviously workable so don't get hung up on the percents, i'm aware it would change crit to be such a vital stat for us. I'm trying to think up a way the shoot first could synergize into combat a little nicer, perhaps back blast crits would now add a tick of advantage and 2 ticks of advantage could be spent to use shoot first as a non combat ability? feel free to add some imput they obviously don't like our burst so lets throw around some ideas to give back some sustained.

completely getting rid of the 3 seconds stun would be step 1, quite frankly I won't lament it all that much. Dirty kick does the same job BETTER, stuns for a second longer, doesn't bug out and leave their body somewhere the 3 seconds is wasted. step 2 would be to increase the shoot first nerf to 40% and remove its positional, additionally nerfing backblasts damage approx 20% and lowering their energy cost substantially. step 3 would be to raise acid blade/flachette back to 50% and add a talent where K.O use to be that allows the use of hidden strike/ back blast within combat whenever backblast crits. step 4 would be to remove the group stealth ability and in it's place put a shadow dance/ shadow step hybrid ability on a 2-3 minute cooldown that teleports you to your target, for a limited time making back blast crit and removing it's positional. depending on how our sustained output is at this point i would consider giving us a "marked for death" type ability that would increase damage a target took for a set ammount of time to make us group friendly. But not to a point where we are required, or ridiculous in pvp, something to the tune of 10-15% for 10-15 seconds. the numbers are obviously workable so don't get hung up on the percents, i'm aware it would change crit to be such a vital stat for us. I'm trying to think up a way the shoot first could synergize into combat a little nicer, perhaps back blast crits would now add a tick of advantage and 2 ticks of advantage could be spent to use shoot first as a non combat ability? feel free to add some imput they obviously don't like our burst so lets throw around some ideas to give back some sustained.

completely getting rid of the 3 seconds stun would be step 1, quite frankly i'm already specced out of it. Dirty kick does the same job BETTER, stuns for a second longer, doesn't bug out and leave their body somewhere the 3 seconds is wasted and doesn't completely fill the resolve bar. step 2 would be to increase the shoot first nerf to 40%, additionally nerfing backblasts damage approx 20% and lowering their energy cost substantially. step 3 would be to raise acid blade/flachette back to 50% and add a talent where K.O use to be that allows the use of hidden strike/ back blast within combat whenever backblast crits. step 4 would be to remove the group stealth ability and in it's place put a shadow dance/ shadow step hybrid ability on a 2-3 minute cooldown that teleports you to your target, for a limited time making back blast crit and removing it's positional. depending on how our sustained output is at this point i would consider giving us a "marked for death" type ability that would increase damage a target took for a set ammount of time to make us group friendly. But not to a point where we are required, or ridiculous in pvp, something to the tune of 10-15% for 10-15 seconds.

amen and god bless you sir. how long till people complain because they can't fight back due to shootfirst -> dirty kick?