Shadows do it from behind.

Thing is, force potency is once every what? 2min? So what do you do in the meantime? Oh right...you die, because your dps takes a huge hit. Ragamer and I were discussing this in the PvE Infiltration thread. I won't rehash the giant paragraphs we typed, but suffice to say you'll want around a 30-35% crit rate if you can handle it and not gimp yourself in other stats to be most effective. In PvP, yeah, you can get away with low crit and just focus on power + force potency to pack the same punch, but for any extended fight (such as in PvE), or if your target gets a heal and your force potency is down, you're suddenly in serious trouble. Don't discount crit.

Ragamer pretty much covered all the rotations and such, so I won't rehash that too much, suffice to say that yes, Resilience is fantastic if used properly, and Force Speed is great if timed correctly to get you back into the mix after a knockback. What I want to stress is the above quoted part. For PvP, Infil-spec Shadows can get away with low crit and rely instead of heavy +power and force potency + project and force breach for short, heavy, burst dps. In PvE, that doesn't work so well on anything higher than a silver mob. As stated above, it's worth getting higher crit. I'd say between 30 and 35% if you can (without sacrificing other stats, surge, power, etc.). With the Smuggler buff, this will put you at 35-40%, which is where you want to be. This is perhaps the most important aspect of the Infil spec, since so much of your damage is from crits (project, shadow strike, and force breach *crits* all have huge boosts). Without crits, the damage on those abilities is subpar, and VERY noticeable. (eg. a non-crit project for me is about 1200-1500 damage. Crits tend to easily be 3k+, usually 3500ish). Given that you can throw a Project out every, what, 8 sec or so? 10 sec? That's a lot of dps over the course of a boss mob fight lost if you have a poor crit rating and seldom crit. The other reason I'm pro-crit is that in the typical PvE spec of 2/31/8, Force Synergy will only boost your melee crits - which is nice for SS and CS, but does nothing for your force abilities (project and FB). And the Stalker 4-piece set only boosts your CS crit rate: it does nothing for any of your high crit damage abilities. Hope this helps.

I like the look of that. Mind telling which pieces you combined to make that?

Not bad advice here. The key is to stay out of melee range on a 1 v 1 with an Infil shadow. You'll want to use any/all of: sever force (root), force slow, force wave, and even force stun to help you out of range; force speed is ideal here too. At this point, you can use FiB, sever force, and force breach to slowly whittle them down (while gaining back a bit of health at the same time). If you notice they haven't eliminated your DoTs via Resilience (either due to a poor player, or perhaps resilence is on cooldown), take advantage of this by combining battle readiness + force breach - that damage really adds up if they're not paying attention Additionally, chances are the infil shadow won't have TK throw on their hotbar, so you can also take advantage of force potency + TK throw to do extra damage over time from 30m away, while slowing them down at the same time. If they're smart, they'll force cloak and either try to close the gap to you, or pick another target. If the former, rinse/repeat what is above An infil shadow is useless at >10meters.

Which I think was the initial concept of the Infiltration tree. Hard to say, though, as we don't have direct input from devs. However, the end result is a failure due to numerous reasons, some of which were outlined already in this post, but which include: - the ability for enemies to easily (far too easily) detect Shadows unless Blackout is up - the fact that 31 points in the tree nets you a melee attack that is only *marginally* better than a melee attack you have had since level 1 (about 100ish more damage per hit than Double Strike), costs the same amount of force, and for which the only real reason to use it is to set up your higher damaging Projects - the fact that Project isn't a guaranteed crit. Even with, say, a 30% crit rate on your Shadow, which is pretty respectable, you're going to be doing sub-par damage 70% of the time (i.e. non-crits) compared to the TANK tree which will always have a guaranteed Project crit - Shadowy Veil boosting what is already a pitiful armour rating by 30%; a boost which is mostly unnoticable. - Shadow Strike costing way too much force, lending to it only being used when Find Weakness is up, whereas it seems better suited to a high damage strike-from-stealth setup. - Shadow Strike hitting for far less than it should given it's tooltip damage (i.e. if tooltip damage reads 2000-2500, for example, you might see some SS's hitting for 1700ish). I've also noticed this with Find Weakness up, which is pretty much the only time I use Shadow Strike - and considering it should be ignoring 50% of the enemy's armour, it should be doing *noticeably* more damage than the ingame tooltip damage, and crits should be "WHOA!", which they are currently not) - no means of self-healing, unlike the other 2 trees; coupled with a poor armour rating, leads to a very poor survivability in any lengthy fight - Force Breach being one of your main damaging attacks; however, on a CD twice the length of Project, and which requires your Shadow technique to proc 5 times in order to maximize it's effectiveness, something that is contradictory to the "burst dps" vision the rest of the skill tree seems aimed at. - the long "cooldown" on Profundity leading to a very low force regeneration, and serious force issues on a fight any longer than, say, 30 seconds. Suffice to say, Infiltration needs work. Whether those suggestions in the OP are the way to go? I'm not sure. But I *do* know Kinetic can pull similar dps numbers to Infil with 1000 times the survivability, which does seem inordinately unfair.

Good. I can't wait for you to hit 50, and then get owned by various other classes. Maybe then you'll realize that Sentinels and Marauders aren't overpowered, and you'll stop coming to these boards crying about it.

I have both a Shadow (Kinetic) and Sentinel (Watchman). I'd say overall my Sent does noticeably more dps than my Shadow, although a guildmate who's Balance specced and now sitting at 1700+ WILL can do pretty impressive numbers as well. Overall, it all depends what we're talking about here. Is it sustained dps or burst dps we're comparing? And are we discussing purely PvE? or PvP? or a mixture of both? If sustained dps, Balance Shadow can do respectable numbers. But so can a Sentinel. In this sense, it would come down to which you prefer playing moreso, as each class has unique traits and playstyle. If burst dps, Infiltration Shadow can do respectable numbers - but is dependant on long cooldowns (force potency, battle readiness, relics, etc.). Take those away, and the burst becomes significantly less. Sentinel clearly wins here as the burst dps can be sustained much longer. Although if this is purely PvE, the Infil Shadow isn't a complete washout. It's just in PvP where it becomes a serious issue, especially if you blow all of your CD's and your opponent can nullify that damage. Then you're a sitting duck. If you're still unsure on which class you want, consider that Shadow gets stealth and a mez; Sentinel gets short-lasting group buffs, and must maintain focus in his/her rotations to keep dps up. Both are fun to play, ultimately. PS - who's the d-bag that necroed the 4-month old thread?? PPS - Shinarika, Sentinels aren't "overpowered" IMO. They're right where they should be now. The problem is that Infiltration is seriously lacking in comparison, and we both know it.

Actually, no, I'm not, but good attempt at trolling. I rolled a shadow when everyone was making sentinels, commandos, and sages, thank you. And whether I had rolled a shadow tank, vanguard, or jedi guardian, my point would remain the same - the guild's needs have changed, and rather than reroll a new character, I would like the option to switch my current one.

I'd be all for an advanced class respec, and it has nothing to do with "making a mistake." It has everything to do with the fact that my shadow tank is now one of about 135901375013975 in our guild, and is seldom needed any more as the newer tanks are keen on gearing themselves up. (and for the record, we have even more Sentinels in the guild than tanks, so switching to "dps" isn't an option either) The two things that our guild is often short of on raids, however, is ranged dps and healers. Both of which a Sage can be. Even if they forced us to re-level from 10, I'd pay to respec. So long as I got to keep all of my equipment (placed in bank or something).

Ran a 34/7/0 spec yesterday and really enjoyed it. Had 2k comms banked, and netted another 1k or so from PvP last night. Instantly upgraded to a BM saber and chest piece (was previously in champ gear). Planning on trying out Combat soon, as I want to take advantage of immobilizing Master Strike after a Precision Slash, with a few points in Master Focus to boost it further.

It has, mostly because: 1) Master Strike now does more damage, which further boosts dps if you use it liberally (and you should!); 2) Expertise reshuffling now means people in full BM are going to get something like a +20% damage bonus. Combined with Merciless Slash's already impressive damage, this is now even more damaging. Combining these two, especially with an expertise stim and/or Inspiration, drops a ton of damage in a very short period. Inspiration + Master Strike (2 ticks) -> Merc Slash = O.o. Combat is no different, either. Inspiration + Precision Slash (for 100% AP buff) + Master Strike + Blade Storm and/or Blade Rush(es) was good damage before 1.2. Now it's silly good. *edit* - to the OP, I wouldn't say Sentinel is "oversimplified". Far from it, it's still the hardest class to play IMO. It's just now a bit "FoTM", which is perhaps turning you off of it. If this is the reason, I can understand completely. But if you really feel it's oversimplified, I would beg to differ.

Keep the damage. Nerf the range (especially on that final tick).

^^ This. If Infil spec, be sure to use this as often as possible. If needed, low slash or force stun them to position yourself. Although last time I ran some tests, it seemed as though Shadow Strike wasn't properly hitting for what it should. I got a lot of abnormally low hits (below what the tooltip read for damage, even with the Find Weakness proc up). Looking forward to running some tests with training dummies to confirm this, but it seemed as though it was a bit buggy.

Also as of 1.2, Combat will have better melee AoE than Watchman with Zen + Cyclone Slash. As for Combat, I think Yourmomwashere summed it up pretty well. Personally, I'll be using my free respec tomorrow to play around with Combat for a bit. Worst case scenerio, I switch back to Watchman. But it seems like an opportune time to try out Combat for a change

Also keep in mind that PvP isn't the only place you want to burst dps. It's still very commonplace in PvE, especially if solo and it's a tight race on who lives, or, say, in an endgame scenerio such as Soa round 3 where you have a tight window for each dps burst. And that extra 33% chance to reset Cauterize means you have it available more often, which is extra dps as well. But from a focus-spending perspective? Yeah, 2 x slash would win. Generally speaking, however, focus isn't that much of an issue for Watchmen. Not with in-your-face Force Leap, Zealous Strike, burns having 30% to give 1 focus every 1.5 sec, and Master Strike providing a fantastic free damage boost while waiting for the focus generators to reset.

I have both a Shadow and a Sentinel. For me, Sentinel PvE is fun because: - the animations are fantastic compared to a Shadow tank. Shadow tank = swing up, swing down, swing up, swing down, throw a rock, throw many small pebbles, etc. The only interesting animations for Shadows *imho* are Slow Time (mainly due to the audio resembling a sonic boom or something) and Infil's Clairvoyant Strike (which isn't all *that* spectactular, to be honest). Watching my Sentinel force leap in, throw a number of moves in including master strike, zealous strike, and merciless slash, and then turn to the add my companion has been working down and finish it off by hurling my lightsaber at it, is just pure win. Love it. - Force Leap. Nuff said. - it's not 100% easy-mode in PvE. My Shadow could stealth past numerous targets, mez others, and reduce a 3 v 1 into a 1 v 1 fight with ease. My Sentinel can't do that, and has to work just a little bit harder to get the same quests done. I can't speak for everyone, but for me that extra work translates into a sense of accomplishment. - I enjoy the companions better. As a Shadow, only Nadia is interesting for me. As a Sentinel, I enjoyed T7, Kira, and Scourge immensely. - better PvE storyline. Sentinel's just felt more epic, for lack of a better term.

Exactly. Either you caught the Sent/Mara with his pants down, or they were simply a poor player. Having both a Sent and a Shadow, I've found the key to destroying Sents/Marauders is to do the exact *opposite* of what was in this video. If you burst them down to 1/3rd life, they're simply going to pop either Force Camo, or Guarded by the Force / Undying Rage. If it's the latter, you're in trouble, because that's generally followed by a medpac, and further self-healing if Watchman or Annihilation spec. Suddenly they're at 60%, and you've just blown all of your burst ability. Uh oh. Best bet is to slowly take them down to 50% (using medpac and Deflection to minimise damage you take), or simply find one already at 50%, and *then* use your big hitters to take them from 50 down to 0 before they can react. If you've already built up some charges of Breach, even better - makes your job easier. And I'd also throw in a Force Stun after your 2 CS's to either keep them stunned for that final burst, or force them to use their stun-breaker to deal with that rather than being able to Camo or use Guarded/Undying.

Umm....isn't that what you do on Shin??

This, exactly. I played Balance the same way. See a group of 3 mobs? Stealth + mez the strongest, then Lift one of the remaining 2 (or low slash if Infiltration). This gives you several seconds to burn down the solo mob, which should be easily doable as Infil. Lift / low slash ends, and you burn down that mob. Let Theran heal you up to full, if needed at all, before you tackle the hard hitter (hint: use your Force Potency + Adrenals on this mob to burn down faster - see the various "bursting" threads for tips). PvE is incredibly easy as a Shadow (any spec) if used properly. There were numerous missions when I was levelling up where I would stealth all the way to the boss mob, burn it down, then quick travel out.

A fellow guild Infil shadow swears by the +30% armour rating boost, whereas I never really noticed it helping when I was Balance. In my mind, +30% on poor armour rating is a marginal improvement if anything and not worth the points. If it were more of a static boost to evasion (i.e. Defense rating) then I might be sold, but + I guess it comes down to what level you are and whether you PvE or PvP. For PvE: if you tank (either while levelling up or doing level 50 dailies and such solo), then it might be worth it. If you use a tank companion, then it's mostly useless. For flashpoints/Ops, you shouldn't be tanking, and therefore your armour rating is irrelevant and the points could almost assuredly be better spent elsewhere. For PvP: could be argued useful, since reducing any incoming damage is always a good thing. Especially with 1.2's "1 medpac per fight" restriction, damage reduction will be very important. Depends what you're giving up with those points, however.

Levelled from 1-47 as Balance, then switched to Kinetic from 47-50 as things were starting to get pretty tough around Voss / Corellia levels. In hindsight it was more an issue of being slightly underlevelled than anything - I was tackling level 47 quests at 46 or 47, for example. Since then, I've bounced between Balance and Kinetic a bit as I have gear for both. Currently Kinetic, though, to assist the guild in tanking Ops. Companions : Qyzen until Theran, then used Theran pretty much exclusively until 50. Hard to beat a healer companion with CC for a dps class.

No, I noticed, actually. I just presumed you would have taken the advice of people letting you know that 28/3/10 doesn't really grant you anything extra, and that if you were to splash into Balance, that 28/0/13 is the better option. In which case I was pointing out the merits / fallbacks of FiB. /shrug It's not that everyone else isn't listening to what you're saying; it's you as well (and most notably, I might point out).

The thing is, for PvE tanking Slow Time is *essential*. If you regularly tank PvE encounters, then it would be silly to not keep it, or switch to your other spec and have to re-spec several times a week every time you switch between PvE and PvP. Now, that said, if you're not interested in tanking PvE, or you could care less about the hassles of respeccing, then by all means go with your 28/0/13 spec. This was a very popular spec previously before Slow Time got buffed, and still has some merit. FiB is a nice ability to have in PvP as well as PvE; however, it's still not a huge damage dealer. 2-3k per AoE vs. 1-2k per AoE + snare is a minor tradeoff, which most won't consider worth it. But up to you - you're paying for this game, so make sure you have fun. Ultimately, it seems like you want to tank, but simply do more damage - in which case I strongly suggest just going the "Shin" route and using all dps gear in tank mode with a shield. You'll still be semi-beefy, get tons of medals with Guard, but double (or triple) your dps in a PvP encounter if played properly. PS - getting shirty with people over them voicing opinions isn't going to encourage them to be more constructive in your thread. PPS - to the previous poster, Force Pull isn't a guarantee. I've had it ignored countless times, and also Force Pulled someone into fire, only to have them chain-stun me and/or punt me away instantly with one of their knockback abilities. It also has a lengthy cooldown and should not be your only means of really killing someone.

Yep, agreed. Keep slow time as KC, even for PvP. The damage adds up when you're constantly throwing out 1k damage every few seconds to 3-4 targets, plus snare is invaluable in a lot of PvP encounters. As for gearing - it all depends on whether you want to be the nigh-unkillable PvP tank that's constantly harrassing other players with taunts, slow time, and so on, but not putting out a ton of damage; or if you want to go the "Shinarika" route and simply be a tank stance / shield using dps'er with all power/surge/crit gear to boost your dps through the roof. Completely personal preference here and up to you. PvP tanking has it's distinct advantages, but I also find that PvP is very much about putting out dps - and tanking lacks that. There's no point in chasing down a ball carrier if you can't actually kill them, for example. However, a proper tank can hold a turret from 2-3 enemies while reinforcements are en route, which can make or break a game. So to each their own Whatever works for you, just gear for it. But you can do just fine in PvP with your PvE tank spec, is what I'm getting at.