uh... well.. KOTOR and SWTOR used ot be C-cannon, now we're LEGENDS.

Yeah, but when the game designers create flashy abilities for the sake of making the game cool, that doesn't mean they exist in canon. That's why I say abilities should be considered, but with limitaitons, We know the Wrath and Nox can use powerful TK because have a number of TK game abilities, and some times we see them use them on certain cutscenes.

Alright, so based on this, how do we consider Game Abilities that Wrath and Nox posses in the game?

Gameplay is not canon, according to Selenial

And his way to compare Video Game characters to movie characters? where's the source of that, since you want everyone to debate by those rules, might as well share them.

No, it hypes yours. pretty convenient. If you're strip away everything that the characters are, they're not even the same characters anymore, you're comparing Movie characters to essentially thin air.

So basically, the way to go about it is, we take away 90% of their powers and accolades and then compare them movie characters, pretty fair, right? This is a video game, combat is left almost exclusively shown through gameplay and cutscenes are almost always about dialogue and player choice. And there won't be any novelizations about Wrath and Nox* because the characters are what the players want them to be. *Not anywhere in the near future and while swtor is still up and running

Should be, also that GL already stated that he was the most powerful. Are these statements meant to consider the EU or what is now considered LEGENDS? I don't know, I'd say no, according to Lucas and the writers, the Old Republic era doesn't exist and video games are not a medium on par with video games and shouldn't really be considered. If we're basing ourselves in Legends continuity and we agree that both Vitiate and Sidious existed, how can we determine who is the most powerful?

I think this is more of a fault of writers establishing something like RoT and then other writers not sticking to it, because it will bring a bigger viewership to many Sith villains for the Jedi to fight against, Maul, Ventress, Opress, The Inquisitor from Rebels, etc. Yes, but those favoring movie characters discount the powers that we learn in the game, even when we agree we're basing ourselves in Legends continuity.

Ugh... the Empire already from that crisis, and thanks to aid of powerfuls Sith, such as Wrath and Nox that rise to the top to put the Empire back in the race. Also it's the nature of the dark side to turn on itself, the same reason the RoT ultimately failed, with the death of Palpatine.

While I understand that this is supposed to be canon story, it logically makes no sense. competition breeds excellence and two sith that isolate themselves, hide from the Jedi and the wider galaxy for thousands of years are better duelists than Sith who crossed blades with the Jedi like every other day? Sparring with your teacher is never going to be better training than fighting for your life against your mortal enemies. And while RoT Sith are supposed to try to kill each other at some point... it's not something that happens right away, I mean, Bane doesn't crush Zannah as soon as he meets her, right? In the case of Sidious, he learned everything from another Sith Lord, and when he thought he had learned enough, he killed him in his sleep, so we don't even know if Sidious would have won in head to head fight. As far as I know, Bane instituted the RoT because the Sith of his time sucked balls, and he held Sith from ancient times in higher regard, such as Revan. While what Bane did made sense for his time, I don't think instituting the RoT would have made sense during the time the Sith Empire was in full swing, the Empire is basically RoT on a galactic scale, the Sith cooperated greatly to succesfuly build a powerful civilization based on their ideals while also competing with each other, I think it's a bigger achievement than the small secretive order of RoT. What the heck!?

This is to be taken with some considerations, The Inquisitor is supposed to be somewhat of a mirror a young Darth Sidious who from early age have been researching secrets and artifacts, and it's not a mirror of an elder Sidious who was way more powerful and ruled the galaxy in the original trilogy. But I do believe that if the developers tell you that playing the warrior is about living your own Darth Vader fantasy, then being as powerful as Vader is part of that fantasy. Or at least being more powerful than your enemies in the Old Republic in a similar way that Vader was more powerful than the people he faced in his time.

I think we all agree that the swtor characters are very undefined when it comes to their abilities, but there are things that should be taken into account. -The Vision and Idea the devs had for these characters (as I said previously, they've stated many times that the swtor characters were created to mirror the most popular archetypes from the movies) -Their Personal Story (Since this is the canon for these characters this is what is most important, also their victories against named but also nameless enemies should be considered) -Their Game Abilities and Powers (should give a frame of reference of their fighting style and the extent of their abilities) -Planetary Quests (These can't really be assigned to any particular charater I'm afraid, but if anything it does show that these characters are veterans of the Galactic War that could have performed these feats) -Story Focused Flashpoints (As far as I know the characters were part of the strike teams that participated in the most story focused Flashpoints, the same flashpoints that Bioware is giving a SOLO mode soon) I still disagree with the notion that if these characters don't have books written about them, then they're weaker. As gamers we should value video games as much as any other medium.

It's the difficulty that comes from comparing Canon characters to Legend characters, especially Legend characters that are part of a very young franchise if we compare swtor to the movies, I mean... Vader was created in 1977 and Nox and Wrath in 2011. Also the abilities and powers of Nox and Wrath are very nebulous, there is no canon version of which lightsaber form they mastered, or what force power they favored in combat, that is left up to the player to experience through gameplay. Maybe some day there will be novelizations of the swtor protagonists with a more detailed explanation of their powers, but I doubt it will happen because canon versions of them would piss of the players, make their choices feel invalidated, and it will definitively not happen while swtor is still running. So we're in a situation that we have well defined characters vs nebulous chracters, I don't think the better fleshed out characters should win by default or simply because they are more popular, we know from the developers that the Wrath is supposed to be Vader's mirror and Nox is Sidious mirror, thematically and in the abilities they have, admittedly, Sidious in the movies is around 70-80 and Nox should still be in his early twenties (since other NPCs point out he's young) and that would explain why he had more time to become more powerful. We have to take all these things into consideration if we want to make a fair comparison, without taking into account popularity or which character has more books written about him, swtor is fairly new, you'll never find these characters name-dropped on early movies or books because they simply didn't exist at the time, and now that swtor is legends canon I doubt we'll hear them being mentioned in any future series or movies either, but still Nox and Wrath achievements should put them on the top tier of their own era. I still find it funny that it seems that someone putting out a good word for you counts more than your own achievements, I bet that if someone during Episode 7 were to say "oh yeah... Darth Nox, he kicked *** " then Nox would pass from not even making it to any Top 10, to suddenly being Top 3 or so, lol. For me, fiction is fiction is fiction, kicking *** in a game should not be considered less than kicking *** on a movie, neither happened in reality, but if we're going to agree that both these pair of characters were to meet each other in an imaginary battlefield, then everything should be taken into account, not just a few things like "cutscenes yes, but powers no, these enemy counts but this other doesn't" etc.

Ever since KotFE has been announced there have been statements made by characters and by developers that seemed odd to me, but when you put them all together, they heavily imply that there is a prophecy at work here. It started when KotFE was announced and the characters were introduced "Destiny is a lie. Fate is the falsest of hopes. I am beyond prophecy. I forge my own path by making the difficult choices. Now, it is your turn.I am not without mercy. Surrender and you may live. Stand against me, and I will turn you into a monument for fools who believe their victory is preordained. Choose wisely" - Arcann, The Dark Prince Me: why does he talk so much about Fate and Destiny? I guess he's just weird "It has to be you. Find the strength within yourself to persevere and sacrifice your own needs for those of the galaxy. You're our last hope." - Lana Beniko Me: Of course we're everyone last hope, it's a classic RPG narrative. “We’re going to win this thing. I’m telling you, its destiny.” "Someone has to stand up to tyranny, right here and now. To make it clear that we reject this twisted vision for the galaxy. Someone has to own up to their destiny and fight." - Koth Vortena Me: We're destined to win? sure, I guess. Also Statements from the Devs! “With the fall of both the Republic and the Empire, effectively you are that chosen one." “You’re special, and you’re special for a reason!” - Michael Backus, Lead Designer Me: Well, I guess he means that we're "The Chosen One" because only us can defeat the Eternal Empire "The villains in this story aren’t just out to conquer the galaxy—they’re after you, personally" - Jesse Sky, Creative Director Me: After me, personally? Wait, what did I ever do to them!? Since my main is an Inquisitor, I thought that maybe she is so strong in the force that Valkorion sees her as a threat, but that can't be, it has to be something that could be applied to any class, Sith, Jedi, Trooper or Smuggler. Then it all came back to me, all this talk about Fate, Destiny and being the Chosen One, it has to be a literal prophecy, very similar to how Anakin was part of a prophecy himself, I just hope we don't screw up like he did. EDIT: It also reminds me of how The Grand Marshal fears Riddck in The Chronicles of Riddick, because there was a prophecy that he would be killed by a furian. Also frieza blowing up the planet Vegeta and almost drivin the Saiyan to extintion because he feared the legend of the super saiyan. But this begs the question, if we're such a big threat to Valkarion, why didn't he kill us, instead of carbonizing us? I'll elaborate further on my next report... --------------------- END TRANSMISSION -------------------------- Nah, just kidding, I have no clue lol

I understand that the characters from the movies have been fleshed out A LOT more, even minor characters that mostly stay in the background have major roles in Novelizations, and let's talk about these novels, Labyrinth of Evil came out only 1 year after KOTOR 2, do you think the author of that novel, James Luceno, even knew about the Jedi and Sith from the Civil War and the First Jedi Purge? When characters from the movie era say "so and so is the best, etc" do you think them or the people writing them even know about KOTOR or SWTOR? I don't think so, and I think the main reason you never see characters from the Video Games get a fair shake is because, well, they're character from Video Games, many people see Games as an inferior medium to movies at best and as kids toys at worst, Im pretty sure that the writers that fleshed out characters from the movies through novels, and series such as clone wars, never heard or of or played SWTOR, and considering Nox & Wrath were created in 2011, it makes sense they were never recognized as powerful duelists in the Mythos in all media that came out prior to that year, and with Disney moving the all games to LEGENDS canon, forget about any chance of them being mentioned in the future either. But in any case, just because a character is more fleshed out, it doesn't mean they're more powerful, and while not as extensive, some of the biggest enemies defeated by Nox and Wrath were fleshed out in comic books too.

Hey if GL said Sidious is the most powerful sith, then that's pretty much it, but we're talking about his apprentices here, Vader and Dooku vs Nox and Wrath, now if we're going to underplay their achievements as merely "defeating a bunch of Darths" the same could be said for Vader and Dooku, defeating a bunch of Jedi, sure, those Jedi got screentime on theaters, so what? being popular doesn't mean you're more powerful, and people like George Lucas and movie buffs will always look down on Video Games as an inferior form of media, so of course we always see Video Game characters ranked several tiers below Movie characters, but aside from that bias there shouldn't be other reason for them being more powerful, the technology is the same, and lightsaber forms are the same, as far as I know Juyo from the Movie Era is not better than Juyo from the Old Republic era. Nox and Wrath have fought time and again during the Galactic War and so far are undefeated, yeah, not every enemy Nox defeated had a novel written about him (Thanaton actually was featured in comic books) that doesn't mean they're weaker.

Yes, in my opinion the notion that the "Movies/Clone Wars characters > Anyone else ever" is just a product of those characters being more popular and having more exposure since they appeared on feature films. I can live with Luke and Sidious being #1 because GL said so, but IMO everyone else is fair game. It's not just the nameless sith or jedi that the characters kill on their way the big bosses (which in my opinion should be taken into account) There are also a bunch of characters that are not even considered. Let's talk about Nox* for a moment, people credit him with killing Thanaton but also kind of dismissing it saying Thanaton was weak, but it's not just that he killed Thanaton, Nox first attempted to kill him on his sanctuary on Dromund Kass, first killed his apprentice Rolan but the instability of the ghost he bound cause him to expell so much force energy that he sent Thanaton flying across the room and both fled the scene, then on Corellia, in order to get to Thanaton first he had to defeat Lord Skar then, Darth Kallous, who tried to attack Nox with Force Lightning and Nox made him fly across the room with Force Push, and then defeated him, right after that Thanaton sends his elite personal guard after Nox, two "powerful cyborgs" according to him, and Nox defeats them in a 2v1, when he beats them then he has his duel with Thanaton and beats him too, but the coward runs away to the Dark Council, also note that the last four enemies that he deafeats were one right after the other without rest, and without getting tired physically or depleting his force powers. Back on Korriban, Nox tries to enter the Dark Council room but is stopped by Darth Enraj and his two apprentices, who Nox kills in a 3v1, and after that he goes into the Dark Council meeting and kills Thanaton once and for all, and judging by the cutscene, it was a very one sided fight. Also these were no weak enemies, anyone that is a Lord or a Darth at that point in time is a veteran of the Galactic War that surivived many battles, Thanaton himself was a seasoned veteran, he was a Sith Assassin in his younger days but then he decided to specialize more in Sorcery, when he was granted his place in the council he gained access to the Sphere of Ancient knowledge, he used those secrets to bolster his Sith Sorcery, so he was extremely powerful himself. And we're only talking about what Nox did from lvl 47-50, which admitely is the climax of his story but there's much more than that, the list of victories under Nox belt is larger than this even if we pretend every nameless Jedi/Sith he killed never happened. *I'd prefer to call him/her Kallig's Heir since Nox implies the character went darkside, but whatever

I think only taking into account the cutscenes it's an unfair way to determine how powerful a character is, especially considering that all the great fighting scenes are mostly left out of the cutscenes on purpose because they are supposed to be represented through gameplay, if swtor were to be a movie, I guess we would see awesome choreographed fights, but it's not the case. The other problem is that only considering the cutscenes completely removes the context, someone pointed out that the most TK we see from the Wrath is throw a crate at Malgus, but to even get to the throne room to Malgus you'd have to have killed a huge amount of his followers, Imperial Guard, Security Droids, Mandalorians and other Sith, including Darth Severin. Something very important that we have to take into account is on what the creators of these characters were inspired, the developers have said several times pre-launch that the Warrior is supposed to represent the Darth Vader archetype (in fact, both characters end up as being chosen as enforcers for their respective Emperors because of how skilled they were) The Wrath powers were created to mirror those of Vader, that's the reason he uses mostly Force Choke but never Force Lightning, because Force Choke was one of Vader's trademark powers in the original Trilogy. Nox is supposed to mirror Darth Sidious (that's why all his powers are mostly based around lightning) but not a Darth Sidious that is already the Emperor and at the height of his power, but more like a young Sidious with great potential on the force but still learning, they threw a bit of Darth Maul with the Assassin spec in there because they wanted to add a stealth class, but the concept and story arch for the character are supposed to be inspired by Sidious. With all that into account, Nox and Wrath should be at the same power than Dooku and Vader I think. For all I know Vader vs Wrath should be a stalemate, since Wrath is supposed to be Vader's Mirror, the deciding factor is Nox vs Dooku, my money is on Nox because while Dooku is supposed to be a better duelist than him, Nox forcewalking ability should let him exert a huge amount of force power that he draws from all the ghosts he has bound.

So did Sith Lords such as Malgus and The Wrath and I think we agree that the Old Republic era had many more Jedi and Sith running around, finding them on the battlefield was so common for that era that in the game we find tons of nameless Jedi and Sith that we don't get to know as characters, but that doesn't mean they're not dangerous or that defeating them doesn't count. I think people are discounting things that the Characters can do ingame, if Vader gets credit for slaying nameless Jedi on the Jedi Temple on Episode 3, then when the Wrath has to wipe out a bunch of nameless Jedi on one of his missions it has to be acknowledged as well. Yeah, I think what's going on here is that people go by the logic of "Everything you do ingame doesn't count, only what we see during cutscenes count" See? if we follow this logic, only killing Thanaton counts, the countless enemies that you have to kill to GET TO Thanaton don't count. The way I look at it is that, everything you do in game counts, after all, these are video game characters, every mob you killed counts and every game ability you have counts and they should give us a good frame of reference on where this characters stand when it comes to how powerful they are and what are they capable of, by the time you finish Shadow of Revan, Wrath and Nox seem to be the strongest in the Sith Empire.

As I said before, the technology stays the same, and physically speaking, the people from both eras are just as able, both eras have all 7 lightsaber forms available, if you told me that Movie Era characters can stomp on the primitive jedi that only knew Form 1 I would believe you, but that is not the case here. And maybe Ro2 Siths were able to hoard more knowledge, but what about Siths like Malgus or the Wrath who had to get up, have breakfast and go to war against Jedi like every other day for their entire entire adult life? Sure, if GL says Luke and Sidious are the strongest then they are the strongest, but we were not talking about them, we're talking about Dooku (who got killed by Episode3-Anakin) and Episode4-Vader Characters having to group up to defeat Malgus in False Emperor or Revan in The Foundry is more a consequence of this being an MMO and players having to group up to do content, have this been an sRPG players would have beaten them on their own, the same way Revan beat Malak in KOTOR, in fact, Bioware is going back and giving SOLO modes to the Flashpoints were you defeat Revan and Malgus, so players should be able to defeat them 1v1 now, weather the SOLO or GROUP version of these fights is the canon, I don't know. Unlike Dooku and Vader, Wrath and Nox have not been killed yet, and they've defeated everything that's been put in front of them, it is hinted at the end of Shadow of Revan that if Nox and Marr were to team up, they could take on all the other Dark Council Members, this leads me to believe that Nox and Wrath are probably the most powerful Siths in the Empire at the moment, with that in consideration I think a fight between these characters and the movie characters would be much closer than a 8/10.

If you played Dragon Age Inquisitoon, there was an online feature that allows you to select the main choices you made in DA:O and DA2 and import them into the new game, like "who did you help?" and " who did you romance?" etc I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware applies the same for KotFE

This doesn't explain at all how Vader and Dooku deal with all the powers Wrath and Kallig's Heir (Nox) display in the game that we never see in the movies. If what is suggested here is to nerf swtor characters to abide to movie standards (we take away all their force powers that are never shown in the movie) Then you could make the case that they can be defeated, and I guess it must have been said somewhere that the the movie characters are overall better duelists than Old Republic characters? because if that's the case I'd like to see a source for that. EDIT: I'd also like to add, that the Old Republic era had the same lightsaber technology, the same 7 forms of combat and the human or alien bodies were just as strong and agile as the ones we see in the movies, so I don't understand why is there a movie bias that says characters from the movie era are far stronger, both them and swtor characters lived in times of war, in during the Old Republic era in particular there were thousands of Jedi and Sith running arund so Nox and Wrath had a lot of experience facing other force users.

If we judge by the cutscenes, I'd say yes.

I guarantee you will lose all your companions when the expansion is released, they've already said you're captured and put in carbonite and end up separated from your crew. But no all is lost, I also guarantee that you will get new companions, Lana Beniko being one of them, since she was already confirmed. The lead writer also said that the player character will also be reunited with his former companions, but will all of them be returning and will they come back as recruitable companions or just NPCs you can interact with? We don't know yet.