this is all

however, many people need to L2read. The OP isn't just about leagues and athletes. It's about the sport. Soccer is played by probably one billion people worldwide - mostly people just having fun in the "back yard". I play basketball just to have fun. I play it and want to be competitive at it. The story is that sports thrive all over the world because of competitiveness in people. You don't need to be an athlete. This is why it's more applicable to us. It's also the same reason why FPS are so successful. You don't have to be an FPS to have fair competition though. The MMO that realizes this and appeases more than one type of players will be better off.

Sorry man that's just not the way it works. When you play PvP, you grind for skill. If you want to use a proper analogy: sports players grind at their sport to get better at the game. PvP game players should also grind at their game to get better at it. It's as simple as that. You play to get better, not receive gear-based rewards that make you better.

^^ this

I reroll and play lower pvp because it's actually fun. I can beat a level 49 with just my skill, or I can get beaten by a level 13 b/c of his skill. This is how fun PvP should be.

MMO should have both aspects to the game...not just grind. Go to *********** Asia and grind with all of them.

I couldn't have said it better.

L2read. This game can have grind and still have a non-grind PvP system. And since when is a vast network of PvP a niche market? I believe there are more people the last decade who have played Halo, CoD, Battlefield, DAoC, UO, and other good PvP games.

just because you typed one sentence doesn't make you right. Good reasoning man

cool story bro

Re-edited the OP to make it more readable. Also added the link to Universe at War thread

There, I've tried to edit down the TL;DR.

ik ik. It's really hard to discuss something of this magnitude properly w/o leaving out important **** which will then allow people to say the argument fails just because I didn't go in depth enough.

L2Read. I clearly stated many ways BW can satisfy everyone at once.

TL;DR at bottom. Suggestions are above TL;DR. Money issue regrettably also is discussed at bottom even though it's completely off topic and irrelevant. Before I get into it Regardless of money and whatever unfair advantages you think it brings, I'm willing to bet that millions of people will watch the Superbowl this weekend. Millions will watch the NBA Finals. Millions maybe even a billion will watch the World Cup. And millions of people will watch the Olympics this year too. That's called success, and that's more people watching sports than those who will play all the MMOs put together. That's a good system. It's called fair competition. Reasons Why This MMO Should Emulate Sport's Competition Mentality Humans by nature are competitive. It gives us something to do, something to work for. It's entertaining. There is a reason we have developed sports to compete in against each other for thousands of years. Now, if you look at the formula for how sports have been set up, you will see it's been successful for thousands of years, and they have netted billions upon billions of monies in the process. I'm going to go over a few prime sport examples and prove that there is not a single wildly popular or successful sport that allows any type of "gear-progression" (a.k.a any edge for one player over another). Every player in their designated sport has equal access to everything their opponent does. This will illustrate why BW was erroneous in deciding to make PvP a grind, and why they need to look at games prior to WoW for good PvP examples. Let's start with Football, because this is AmURica! Okay, look at the highest level of football - NFL. Not one single player is rewarded by better gear (a.k.a. better gloves, cleats that make you faster than your opponent, steroids, etc...) because of how much work they put into it. Just because Peyton Manning and Tom Brady "grind" every day of their lives doesn't mean they are rewarded with an edge over the competition. They are expected to play against the best of the best on an even playing field every single game. In fact, they are such competitors that this is exactly the way they want it. They want to beat the best of the best on equal grounds. Obviously, some players use steroids, but this is illegal. Whadda ya know? Something that gives one player an edge over another is illegal? Great setup NFL. We all know the NFL does billions of dollars worth of business every year. The Superbowl will be watched by millions upon millions of people in this country alone at the end of this week. Throw "gear progression" into the NFL and it turns into the haves vs the have nots and the whole things is worthless. Soccer next because it's a worldwide sport that is one of the oldest. Soccer nets money all around the world and has some of the fiercest rivalries I've ever seen over in Europe. Are players allowed to wear shoes that would give them an unfair advantage over another player...say shoes with jetpacks? No. Everyone again has access to the same equipment. Everyone is on the same, level playing field. This is how competition is supposed to be. Throw "gear-progression" into this sport and it fails. Basketball; yet another sport that nets billions of dollars every single year. Every year people watch these amazing athletes work hard to try to be the best. There are no shoes that allow one player an advantage over another (unless you believe MJ shoes will make you fly). Every player has access to the same shoes. Their jerseys are all identical in structure. Their goals are identical, and their courts are standardized as well. The only difference in one teams ability to win vs another is their skill. Why do these players not need rewarded better gear to prevent boredom? Because going up against good players isn't boring. Competition is fun. Throw "gear" into this system and it fails. Boxing. Boxing is the great 1v1 sport that has been successful. I don't watch boxing, but I know many of us want to see Manny vs Floyd this year. Again, this sport is standardized. They have gloves, shorts, and a ring. There is no advantage one guy has over another with the exception of his skill. Load up your gloves with some metallic structure that gives you an advantage? Sorry, that's illegal. You get DQ for that. There is no advantage allowed, and the winner are not rewarded an advantage for winning. There is no "gear-progression" in this sport either. Why do people get their faces knocked in match after match if they aren't rewarded something that will make them better? Because it's FUN. Competition is FUN. Not unfair competition. Oh yeah, and it's also a shame BW never looked at Boxing from the start because it was obvious from day one that a lightweight shouldn't be up against a heavyweight - just like a level 10 shouldn't be anywhere near a level 50...let alone a geared level 50. Olympics. It's pretty well known that in every one of these olympic sports there isn't a single advantage allowed by one player over another player. Yet, people from all over the world send teams that compete and grind every day of their lives just to win this event every 4 years. Nuff said. Video games who have used true competition in their PvP and been successful? Oh idk, look at CoD, Halo, Goldeneye, DAoC, etc... I never would have imagined BW could pass up so many good examples and choose the worst one ever...WoW. Why will BW's system of Gear Progression fail? It will fail because it is giving certain players an unfair advantage over other players, and it ruins the true spirit of competition. Unfair competition is not fun for anyone. Give LeBron James a wrist contraption that allows him to make 70% of all his jump shots regardless of where he is on the floor, and even Kobe Bryant will walk away from that challenge because he knows it's stupid. Let's say the NY Giants have played more games and thus are awarded NFL-provided-steroids for the Superbowl. You think the Patriots will show up? No. They'd probably sue the league. Suggestions 1) Unfair advantage must go if you want true competition. 2) You really want token economy in PvP that badly? Fine, offer rewards that have no impact on the competition. You wanna grind? There are always players that love the grind. PvE should be grind, and then grind for more mounts or cooler looking gear...nothing that gives you an advantage over another player. 3) Oh, you want something to work towards? First off, work towards being better. Secondly, we need PvP that has a large impact on the galaxy we live in. I am willing to say that this is what every PvPer is most excited to partake in. Everyone wants to compete for their faction. Third, give the uber competitors even more to do in PvP. Give us the ability to set up tournaments: team v team, guild v guild. Give us something to do that yields bragging rights. Make it a huge deal. Set up a playoff system that will lead up to an annual "superbowl" match that lasts a few rounds on the given WZs available. Give us something to get excited about. 4) Start looking at DAoC and the rewards PvP yielded those players. Start looking for other games that have offered great rewards w/o rewarding unfair advantage over other players. 5) Maybe even do something like the thread about "A universe at war" suggested. Th e link is here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=234156 People keep bumping that thread to make sure you see it BW, so take a look. 6) Stop copying WoW. NOW! WoW PvP blows. It has poisoned the minds of millions of players who have never experienced better PvP. TL;DR All true competition throughout history, thousands of years, has never allowed players to have an advantage over another player and been wildly successful. As a result, players play because they love competition, and even w/o rewards that give them advantages over other players they still compete. Look at NFL Football, Soccer, Basketball, Boxing, etc. are all standardized. You are simply not allowed to anything that another player is not also allowed. Do you see wearing better gloves than another receiver? No, they all have equal access. Yet people watch and play these sports day in and day out every year because they are simply fun. Video games that have been successful w/ true competition: halo, CoD, Goldeneye, DAoC, etc... Perfect example of why PvP in SWTOR isn't fun? Give LeBron James a wrist device that allows him to make at least 70% of all his jump shots, and even Kobe Bryant would walk away from that challenge. Let the NFL reward the NY Giants for hypothetically playing more games by giving them steroids for the Superbowl? I'm willing to bet the Patriots wouldn't show up, and they'd probably sue the league. Unfair PvP isn't fun Suggestions are just above the TL;DR ^^^ **Edit** I didn't want to have to go into money b/c it's pointless but here goes. Short and sweet w/o getting too much into the philosophical aspects of it all. To those of you who say this argument fails because of money, you're wrong. 1) First off, money is a RL issue, not an issue we have to worry about in game. Thus, money is completely irrelevant to the point of this thread. Sports are competitive w/ or w/o money. 2) Money affects Leagues, not the sports themselves. Soccer may have some rich teams (idk if it's true cuz I hate soccer), but it is the most popular sport worldwide. It nets billions of monies worldwide, and if you want to say it isn't competitive or successful just because one league may have some rich teams, then you're wrong. 3) Rich teams use money to buy more skilled players, not to buy unfair advantages w/in the sport itself. This is yet another reason why money is a League issue, not a sport issue. 4) Money as a motivator: Speak for yourself and no one else. You can't say Dwyane Wade or any other athlete only plays for the money. All I know is that I don't get paid to play, and I still watch sports and play them for my own pleasure. I also play other competitive games for my own pleasure. Look at the millions of players who play CoD every day. Are they getting paid? Thus, one can assume that sports are competitive and successful since millions of people watch and play sports every day when they neither get paid to play nor get paid to watch. 5) Last but not least, money doesn't guarantee success. Miami Heat lost in the Finals last year. St. Louis Cards won the World Series. Yankees don't win every year despite their huge pockets. Lakers got swept last year. Green Bay won the Superbowl. Money does affect Leagues, but it isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

I wish we could just sticky this so we don't have to bump it.

Most fun I've ever had was DAoC PvP and SWG. Played WoW til level 60, hated it. Quit once I realized I would still suck at PvP once I hit top level because PvP was just a grindfest. There would always be that elite group you coulnd't ever get on the same level with. SWTOR took waaay too many ideas from WoW. Now their game PvP is utter trash.

Quit whining. Play the game how you want. If you don't have the amount of points for the side you ultimately want to be on, just play BT over and over on HM. You can get to whatever side you want. You played the game you wanted and a companion doesn't like you? Wow dude go get companion gifts. It's easy as pie.

No. I say give everyone full sets of BM gear right now. Then watch how fun PvP gets. We'd be talkin about some great games. This whole PvP system is stupid. Everything about it is boring and sucks balls. I can't wait for ME3.

WoW took the idea of Token Economy and drove it to the extreme. Everything in WoW is a grindfest. They even made PvP a grind. The world will never be the same. The grind is great for some aspects of an MMO but not all. There should be no grind in PvP...at least not for stuff that directly impacts PvP. If you wanna grind for an awesome mount then sure. If I grind for gear that I can then use to beat you even though you are better than I am...that's just stupid. We can't go against each other just for fun anymore. No, now it's all about dailies, weeklies, champion gear, Battlemaster gear, then T4 T5 T6 T7 T8 T9 etc.... Make the game fun to play or most of us will quit. Dangling higher tier gear in our faces is a joke. The developers here clearly were overly influenced by a single game...WoW.

Wow, this video sums it all up. Bump.

This is old hat. You can jump onto those pillars and jump over the blue little wall if I was told right. Point is, some teams exploit the spawn area of attackers and go plant the bomb while the defenders are still in their spawn point and get start. Surprised they didn't fix this day one.

gotta say this is hilarious

Just gonna reemphasize that this is something we need - or at least BW can get some good ideas from it.

Honestly, I don't see myself playing after 6 months. I'm really hard pressed to play after my 2 month game card even. The game is fun until endgame PvP. The WZ are fun to a point. The combat is fun. The problem is Ilum blows major cajones, and I'm sick of the stupid PvP grind that is iced off with a horrid RNG system.