That goes back to core game design. They don't have to be useful in one or the other, and there don't have to be imaginary made up PvP-only stats. Instead, there should just be "combat". This would allow the viability of any spec. And that's what I am going after here, instead of the tail wagging the dog, I'd like to see the dog back in control. Classes that mean something and game design that supports it. That's why what I proposed make sense, and gives flexibility to those who want it but allows the game play to stand truer to the RPG intent.

I disagree. I think if the Datacron bonuses are considered important, than this on a similar level would be too. But here's the thing - the people that WANT to switch all the time won't feel like they're losing all that much if they do. And the people that hold sanctity in their role and choices have the satisfaction of knowing they're a bit better than others.

I am completely in favor of removing spec changes entirely. But it would appear that ship has sailed. So I am trying to bridge the cap with the solution I proposed.

Ok... please read the original post. This is not a thread about if you think they should have them, but rather a proposed solution to appease both sides (those that want them, and those that don't think they should exist.) And that goes for most of you! There are other threads for aguing about the feature, this thread is for arguing about the proposed solution!

Big difference between dual specs (tech they have right now, and could have included) and creating a Mac version. It's pretty clear that there's one coming, just as I always said there'd be no way they wouldn't. Silly not to do it simultaneously, but that's a different thread.

And that's precisely why it solves the problem. It will keep players in one spec, unless they REALLY want the flexibility, then they can switch. Players have to learn that if they want to min/max everything they have to pay the price. However, if players realize that "viable" is a perfectly acceptable way to have fun and be competitive, this whole problem goes away. But as long as someone wants to play on the fringe, the just might have to jump through some hoops to play their way.

You mean like how they are? http://www.askajedi.com/2012/01/02/mac-version-of-the-old-republic-coming-soon-massively-reports/

That's fine, but do you support the idea in the post? Namely, that players who stick with a spec longer are rewarded accordingly... ?

Well, I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic. But thanks.

If I didn't see what happened in WoW, I would agree. But I did, so I don't. The dungeon groups formed by the dungeon finder are horrid. Players don't say a word to each other. Not social at all. Chat channels work and work well. Just use them.

This is something they already have the technology built to do, just as they do for switching Advanced Classes. James Ohlen told me this directly in an interview. So, they CHOSE not to implement it because they clearly lean toward not desiring it for their game. Let me see if I get this right:

Most of the responses haven't taken into consideration the solution I presented... let's not just let this turn into another "I want/don't want dual spec". Instead, comment on the suggestion that there should be a cumulative bonus of some sort that builds up over time the longer you stay with the same spec. It doesn't make other players weaker, it makes you a bit stronger.

I think that's still a call that would be made by the guild leader/raid leader as any other. Again, this solutions gives the chronic, instant re-speccers all of the flexibility they need without traveling or maybe even cost. And the people who think you should stick with a spec can have their chance to benefit from doing that as well. It's a win/win, in progressive competitive raiding though it's probably a little different. Each basic spec with no "time" on it would be of course as effective as it is now. Except there would be "bonuses" accumulating over time.

One of the biggest "discussions" right now surrounds the idea of dual-specs. Meaning, you can easily switch between two different skill trees within your chosen Advanced Class anywhere at any time. You can of course already change your spec by visiting a Skill Mentor and paying some credits, but there are players who would like it to be much more convenient and cheaper so they can do it more often. The Problem One side of the debate thinks that the class-based nature of an RPG should be held relatively sacred. The choices you make to form your character (in combat and otherwise) should carry with you to define who and what your character is. Your spec should stay with you as much as possible. Players on the other side of the kerfuffle argue that this is limiting, and they should be able to more conveniently and freely change their spec to handle whatever situation they are in, wherever they are. In this case, these players want to play more than one role on a regular basis. So, we have one side that doesn't feel you should be able to respect at all, or that the current way is fine. The other side requests two or more save specs for convenient adaption. The Solution? I propose the idea of a "use-based" or "skill-based" construct, which basically means the the more you do something, the better you get at it. How does it apply to "specs"? Simple. The longer you keep a spec without switching, the "better" you become at using it. It essentially makes you better that someone else with the same spec who just switched into it. Obviously, the specific benefits granted couldn't be overpowering, but a small datacron-like stat boost every day might be just enough. And once you change specs, you need to start the 'bonus timer' all over again. Would be curious to hear thoughts on this from both sides of the dual-spec discussion... what say you, disgruntled General Discussion?

Well, you can customize your stats completely... within a subset of gear that makes sense. They probably don't want to see a slave girl tanking Darth Malgus someday Edit: Don't get me wrong. I'd prefer to see full movability on every single piece of gear. But the social stuff they make available through "social points" I am ok with not being combat ready.

I believe one thing BioWare said they are trying to avoid is the "tuxedo warrior" syndrome, so you probably won't see that kind of flexibility.

You know what might make me ok with it? If there was some kind of bonus or additional progression for those that stay with a spec longer. Some way to be "better" than someone who switches in and out of it all the time. SOmething like "32 days since the last accident!" which would reset to zero when you change your spec, giving up your bonuses. In other words, a "skill based" progression system based on your spec. The longer you use it, the better you get at it. What does everyone think of this idea?

Your spec should be your role the majority of the time. It's lucky enough you can switch them at all, but you should absolutely NOT be able to switch them at the drop of a hat. On the odd chance you want/need to, then BioWare has given you a way to do so. Obviously the design intention is not to have players switching on and off 10 times a day. Why do you think they don't have this in the game already?

It's been addressed by myself and others many times. Here it is again. The game's core design is based on classes that have different roles and abilities. The nature of a class based RPG is that your character is built to do specific things that other characters can not do (or do as well.) You then work as a team, together, to overcome challenges. By you being able to slot any ability on a whim, it devalues the class construct and eventually the game design will suffer because the developers will consider this mechanic when designing content. So yes - this feature directly affects me wether I use it or not. You can already re-spec whenever you want - hoof it to a Skill Mentor. It has to be more than flipping a switch.

No, we're not confused. At least I'm not. Obviously and definitely, no switching advanced classes. But in addition, since you can already re-spec by traveling to the Skill Mentor and paying credits, there's no need for a "dual spec" system in the game. It only serves to cheapen the choices made in building your character, and you're much quicker to switch them out than to find a favorite build/role and stick to it. It's a class-based RPG. The classes have to mean something.

Why stop there? Wouldn't it be more FUN if you didn't have to spec at all, just open up your talent tree and rearrange points at any time, anywhere? Here's the reality: the group content you are talking about is in general going to be a Flashpoint or Operation, which are accessed from the fleet. So you're headed there anyway. If you're responding to a call for a Heroic on planet... you're already on that planet. As for the loading, that's not part of game play. Focus your energy on getting BioWare to eliminate those screens, not add a feature as a crutch because they are annoying.

So 5 minutes worth of travel and some credits is too much to ask for that kind of flexibility? If someone is looking for a group, you can still very safely answer "yes, I'll respect and be there asap" without wasting barely a moment more than you otherwise would have.

You know you can already change your spec now, right? I don't think it interferes with your "life" at all. Why is dual spec that much more important?

One thing is the lack of starter areas... that makes rolling an alt even more repetitive right off the bat. There are 4 total, and as the OP stated, the class story is just a fraction of it. In WoW, you had (at launch) 6 starting areas, and since adding 4 more races, there are now 10. Soon to be 11 with the Panda invasion I think the variety in those first 20 levels can help take the edge off of alts... and in TOR, you start out right away with doing the exact same thing you did on previous characters, in the same environment. I think the "class" origin rather than species origin contributes to this as well. Ah, I'm rambling.

Customer service is just as, if not more critical, than the game itself to providing a quality subscription service. But like the game, problems will be found and they will be fixed... BioWare will make customer service improvements as they learn how to do things better. The question is, how many people hang around for those to pan out? I can be pretty critical sometimes, but my advice for everyone is to give it time, they didn't invest all this to flush it.