Who designed this garbage?

[Neil_S]

1. You play against people on your server, rather than having cross server play. This is bad design. You end up with the same people facing each other over and over within a certain time period, with the same results, since skill, gear, and coordination level aren't going to improve teamwide in that period.

 

2. Geared up people win more easily, which means they get better gear faster, and it repeats. There should be some analysis of team power factored into commendation awards, at the very least.

 

3. Losing every match for hours on end is frustrating. You should get more and more buff every time you lose a match. When you finally win, you reset back to normal. If you're bad, you'll still lose more of the time, but the occasional win when your team of losers finally gets so buff that they win will reduce the frustration without making the better players feel like they're getting gypped.

 

4. There is no way to boot afk players, which seem to be fairly common, at least on my server, especially when the same premade group of geared out 50s wails on you on every match because they're the only ones queueing.

 

5. PvP gear is too good. Why can I buy a rank 23 barrel from a PvP vendor yet I can only make level 22 as a crafter? Asinine.

 

6. Open World PvP is complete garbage. People act based on incentives, and as a game designer you are supposed to use incentives to encourage them to play in fun ways. The incentives here just encourage people to avoid each other. Somewhat like Planetside, but without an "instant action" button. Whoever thought this was serviceable should not be allowed to design anything again.

 

To those who say blah blah blah make your own premade and spend weeks losing so you can match your opponents' gear, I say...that's not fun. Games are supposed to be fun, and bad game design is at fault for the PVP system not being fun for anyone except those who love smacking down opponents who have absolutely 0% chance of beating them -which, admittedly, seems to be a decent % of the PvP player base.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Neil_S

[dougan]

Points 4 and 6 are good.

 

Your other points lead me to believe that MMO PvP is not for you.

 

You're getting beaten by premades but you don't want to make one because it's not fun for you?

[Neil_S]

Points 4 and 6 are good.

 

Your other points lead me to believe that MMO PvP is not for you.

 

You're getting beaten by premades but you don't want to make one because it's not fun for you?

 

I'm saying that if games make a solo option, that option should be viable/fun. If the game wants to force people to group for PvP, then just do it rather than allowing people to play in ways they won't find fun. Otherwise, they get frustrated and stop PvPing altogether.

 

I've PvP'ed in pretty much every major MMO since UO. Most have similar flaws, and SWG is not much more than a clone of past games in terms of design. But it's worse in a lot of ways because the balance issues exacerbate the flaws.

 

Plus, I don't enjoy premade groups unless it's an even match. Which most of the time it's not.

[Zetara]

Points 1 and 2 make no sense at all, and are standard across the MMO industry.

[Swaay]

1. You play against people on your server, rather than having cross server play. This is bad design. You end up with the same people facing each other over and over within a certain time period, with the same results, since skill, gear, and coordination level aren't going to improve teamwide in that period.

 

Nothing wrong with having a community on your server. I like it.

 

2. Geared up people win more easily, which means they get better gear faster, and it repeats. There should be some analysis of team power factored into commendation awards, at the very least.

 

What? Better gear = better chance of winning. Put in the time to get yours as the other team did. They did not have it handed to them....

 

3. Losing every match for hours on end is frustrating. You should get more and more buff every time you lose a match. When you finally win, you reset back to normal. If you're bad, you'll still lose more of the time, but the occasional win when your team of losers finally gets so buff that they win will reduce the frustration without making the better players feel like they're getting gypped.

 

Again, What? That makes no sense. How are you going to have a "buff" on you that lasts from match to match....do only you have the buff? your whole team? What do you want, something like WoW tried in VOA area(cant think of name) cause that worked really well...

 

4. There is no way to boot afk players, which seem to be fairly common, at least on my server, especially when the same premade group of geared out 50s wails on you on every match because they're the only ones queueing.

 

Agree here, this will be addressed.

 

5. PvP gear is too good. Why can I buy a rank 23 barrel from a PvP vendor yet I can only make level 22 as a crafter? Asinine.

 

Crafting in this game is heads and shoulders above most other MMO's at low levels. Atleast the things you make are usable and not vendor trash. And you shouldn't base a whole argument over level 22 and 23 items...

 

6. Open World PvP is complete garbage. People act based on incentives, and as a game designer you are supposed to use incentives to encourage them to play in fun ways. The incesntives here just encourage people to avoid each other. Somewhat like Planetside, but without an "instant action" button. Whoever thought this was serviceable should not be allowed to design anything again.

 

No comment, have not experienced any open world pvp yet

 

To those who say blah blah blah make your own premade and spend weeks losing so you can match your opponents' gear, I say...that's not fun. Games are supposed to be fun, and bad game design is at fault for the PVP system not being fun for anyone except those who love smacking down opponents who have absolutely 0% chance of beating them -which, admittedly, seems to be a decent % of the PvP player base.

 

Well, it does sound to me like your queuing solo and losing to premades...to which I say, find a guild or make friends and run with them. If your any good, it makes a world of difference. You cannot make judgments on the competence of game designers, who, by the way, are much better than you at any of this, because you don't want to put anymore effort into winning than queuing yourself up and expecting to be handed handicaps if you can't beat a coordinating group.

 

 

Good day sir.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Swaay

[RobHouse]

3. Losing every match for hours on end is frustrating. You should get more and more buff every time you lose a match. When you finally win, you reset back to normal. If you're bad, you'll still lose more of the time, but the occasional win when your team of losers finally gets so buff that they win will reduce the frustration without making the better players feel like they're getting gypped.

 

 

i actually liked this point, i don't pvp but this makes sense... perhaps further study is worthwhile

[Neil_S]

Good day sir.

 

I'm talking level 50 stuff. Since it only takes a few days to get there, perhaps it's more relevant that whatever you were thinking.

 

I don't care what is MMO standard. MMO standard is crap.

 

As far s community goes, there is no community betwen Empire and Republic, especially on a PVE server. Warzones against them does not build that community.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Neil_S

[Cyphen]

1. You play against people on your server, rather than having cross server play. This is bad design. You end up with the same people facing each other over and over within a certain time period, with the same results, since skill, gear, and coordination level aren't going to improve teamwide in that period.

 

No its not, it brings your servers community together. Its personal choice, many that I know prefer this. If you wish for Xserver Warzones go back to WoW. Personally I couldn't care less a long as I am PvPing.

 

2. Geared up people win more easily, which means they get better gear faster, and it repeats. There should be some analysis of team power factored into commendation awards, at the very least.

 

Well if you geared then what do you expect? Gear is not everything, play as a team. Gear is a mare tool and a privilege. This is in all MMOs, Gear gives you an endge over players which are not, what did you expect? Everyone has the same gear from start? I think GW2 offers that, no gear progression as far as I know.

 

3. Losing every match for hours on end is frustrating. You should get more and more buff every time you lose a match. When you finally win, you reset back to normal. If you're bad, you'll still lose more of the time, but the occasional win when your team of losers finally gets so buff that they win will reduce the frustration without making the better players feel like they're getting gypped.

 

Get into a guild, find friends and play as a team through a VOIP. If you don't want to do that, well MMOs are not for you. Being buffed everytime you loose is the most stupid thing iv ever heard. You should try and get better, not ask for buffs because you or people that play with you are bad players. It's not Biowares fault that alot of new players are terrible.

Worst Idea ever, period.

 

4. There is no way to boot afk players, which seem to be fairly common, at least on my server, especially when the same premade group of geared out 50s wails on you on every match because they're the only ones queueing.

 

Yes I agree, booting AFKers would be nice. Either the way WoW did it or a general Warzone vote to kick the players of the match.

 

5. PvP gear is too good. Why can I buy a rank 23 barrel from a PvP vendor yet I can only make level 22 as a crafter? Asinine.

 

Maybe the crafting item is not appropriate level to compare with the PvP item. Maybe the Crafted item is a green/blue and you are comparing it to a epic/moddable gear. I am not really sure what you are trying to say? Are you saying level 50 crafting gear is not on pair with the level 50 PvP gear? You shouldn't compare low level crafted gear to PvP gear, just shouldn't.

 

6. Open World PvP is complete garbage. People act based on incentives, and as a game designer you are supposed to use incentives to encourage them to play in fun ways. The incentives here just encourage people to avoid each other. Somewhat like Planetside, but without an "instant action" button. Whoever thought this was serviceable should not be allowed to design anything again.

 

They need to buff wPvP and work on it. Id love to see RvR lakes or just buff the amount of XP you get from killing another player, make them drop Merc Commendation and reward you with Valor. If you kill the same player more then once, the reward would be reduced by 25% - 50% to prevent exploiting.

 

To those who say blah blah blah make your own premade and spend weeks losing so you can match your opponents' gear, I say...that's not fun. Games are supposed to be fun, and bad game design is at fault for the PVP system not being fun for anyone except those who love smacking down opponents who have absolutely 0% chance of beating them -which, admittedly, seems to be a decent % of the PvP player base.

 

This is your opinion, this is matter of personal preference therefore making your argument flawed. If you don't like playing as a team, MMORPGs are simply not for you.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Cyphen

[dougan]

I'm talking level 50 stuff. Since it only takes a few days to get there, perhaps it's more relevant that whatever you were thinking.

 

I don't care what is MMO standard. MMO standard is crap.

 

As far s community goes, there is no community betwen Empire and Republic, especially on a PVE server. Warzones against them does not build that community.

 

Back to my point, if you think MMO standards are crap, don't play MMOs. What a stupid comment.

[Zetara]

To be honest you just sound like a carebear who wants to be rewarded for not putting effort in.

 

1. You play against people on your server, rather than having cross server play. This is bad design. You end up with the same people facing each other over and over within a certain time period, with the same results, since skill, gear, and coordination level aren't going to improve teamwide in that period.

 

Well yes, obviously. You play with people on your server. I'm not sure what you expect really.

 

2. Geared up people win more easily, which means they get better gear faster, and it repeats. There should be some analysis of team power factored into commendation awards, at the very least.

 

PVP gear is a reward for playing well. Before you get it you must play well without gear. These players have already played well without gear, and now have gear. You are now doing what they had to do, before they get gear. Gear is a reward, you wear it because you have earnt it. You do not earn something, only to have it mean nothing. If they have gear it's because they've PVP'd more than you, won more than you, therefore will have an advantage over you. As it should be. PVP more yourself, win more yourself, get gear yourself.

 

The other bit I forgot to quote about getting buffed when you lose is just silly, why should you be rewarded for losing? You shouldn't be. You should be rewarded when you win, if you want buffing more then go level. If you want to PVP at a low level when everybodies characters suck then expect to suck in PVP. If you put the effort in to level and you unlock your better abilities chances are you won't lose so much. If you don't do this and you lose time after time, then go and play some more and get a bit better. Don't ask for a reward for being poor. The winners should get a reward, the losers should not get a reward. They should either play more if they need to and level a bit, or they should try harder in the next game, or get a premade group because after all it's an MMO massively multiplayer game and not a massively single player game, or encourage team work via /ops.

 

If someone chooses to PVP at a low level, when they don't have any abilities, OR chooses to play on their own rather with a group, OR chooses to not play with the team via /ops and instead on their own, OR chooses to do all of the above, the common theme here is your choice, which is your own and nobody elses. You should not be rewarded for the things you choose to do, that end up stacking against you.

[Swaay]

I'm talking level 50 stuff. Since it only takes a few days to get there, perhaps it's more relevant that whatever you were thinking.

 

I don't care what is MMO standard. MMO standard is crap.

 

As far s community goes, there is no community betwen Empire and Republic, especially on a PVE server. Warzones against them does not build that community.

 

Annnnd again, you make no sense. What level 50 stuff are you referring to? Because if your talking about Warzones, as I assume you are since you talk about losing matches and wanting cross server queuing, then there is no level 50 specific instances to speak of. Please clarify.

 

 

And if the MMO standard isn't to your liking, then maybe this genre isn't for you. FPS shooters seem more up your ally.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Swaay

[Cyphen]

Back to my point, if you think MMO standards are crap, don't play MMOs. What a stupid comment.

 

Guess he wants something new, something that has not been done before. Basically he wants innovation to move away from this "MMO standard" features that we have seen in most MMOs. No gear progression, everyone to be equal. I heard that FPS, RTS games offer that, OP should try those.

 

You are looking in the wrong place OP.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Cyphen

[Jooji]

Having been a WoW player for 5 years I really like that our warzones in SWTOR are only within the server. It's interesting playing the same pre-mades and getting to "know" your enemies.

[Verita]

Back to my point, if you think MMO standards are crap, don't play MMOs. What a stupid comment.

 

Not all standards are necessarily good standards...

[Verita]

Having been a WoW player for 5 years I really like that our warzones in SWTOR are only within the server. It's interesting playing the same pre-mades and getting to "know" your enemies.

 

Why not make this optional? I don't actually care, what server my "enemy" is on.

[Cameirus]

Points 1 and 2 make no sense at all, and are standard across the MMO industry.

 

point 1 is not standard.

 

point 2 is accurate. gear v gear is not fun, thats why Rift pvp is disappointing after level 50.

[dougan]

Not all standards are necessarily good standards...

 

But they're still standards which implies ubiquitous presence. If someone doesn't like the commonplace themes in anything, why is it bad advice to tell them to avoid it?

Edited January 1, 2012 by dougan

[Zetara]

point 1 is not standard.

 

point 2 is accurate. gear v gear is not fun, thats why Rift pvp is disappointing after level 50.

 

Yes it is standard, you join a server, you play with those guys on the server.

 

RE: Point 2, aaw what a shame.

 

I have no gear, doesn't bother me. I still have plenty of fun killing others when working as a team. No gear can mitigate focus fire and teamwork enough before they die.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Zetara

[Verita]

Guess he wants something new, something that has not been done before. Basically he wants innovation to move away from this "MMO standard" features that we have seen in most MMOs. No gear progression, everyone to be equal. I heard that FPS, RTS games offer that, OP should try those.

 

You are looking in the wrong place OP.

 

I would love something like a league like Blizzard has build for Starcraft II. If I remember correctly they have "skill" brackets. If you win more often you move up into the next and if you loose to much you move down.

 

That way the matches would become much more exciting, and equipment advantages will become less devastating. After all: It's about fun and the players with skill and gear will always be within the top brackets.

 

And, someone mentioned something like that, you will still get to know your opponents even across servers.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Verita

[Verita]

But they're still standards which implies ubiquitous presence. If someone doesn't like the commonplace themes in anything, why is it bad advice to tell them to avoid it?

 

It's not bad advice at all, but he can still wish for changes, can't he? I guess we all have our likes and dislikes.

[Neil_S]

No its not, it brings your servers community together. Its personal choice, many that I know prefer this. If you wish for Xserver Warzones go back to WoW. Personally I couldn't care less a long as I am PvPing.

 

 

 

Well if you geared then what do you expect? Gear is not everything, play as a team. Gear is a mare tool and a privilege. This is in all MMOs, Gear gives you an endge over players which are not, what did you expect? Everyone has the same gear from start? I think GW2 offers that, no gear progression as far as I know.

 

 

 

Get into a guild, find friends and play as a team through a VOIP. If you don't want to do that, well MMOs are not for you. Being buffed everytime you loose is the most stupid thing iv ever heard. You should try and get better, not ask for buffs because you or people that play with you are bad players. It's not Biowares fault that alot of new players are terrible.

Worst Idea ever, period.

 

 

 

Yes I agree, booting AFKers would be nice. Either the way WoW did it or a general Warzone vote to kick the players of the match.

 

 

 

Maybe the crafting item is not appropriate level to compare with the PvP item. Maybe the Crafted item is a green/blue and you are comparing it to a epic/moddable gear. I am not really sure what you are trying to say? Are you saying level 50 crafting gear is not on pair with the level 50 PvP gear? You shouldn't compare low level crafted gear to PvP gear, just shouldn't.

 

 

 

They need to buff wPvP and work on it. Id love to see RvR lakes or just buff the amount of XP you get from killing another player, make them drop Merc Commendation and reward you with Valor. If you kill the same player more then once, the reward would be reduced by 25% - 50% to prevent exploiting.

 

 

 

This is your opinion, this is matter of personal preference therefore making your argument flawed. If you don't like playing as a team, MMORPGs are simply not for you.

 

Dude, you are so wrong, and yet you preach like you know everything.

 

1) No, playing warzones against people doesn't do jack for community. It's the same handful of people playing the same handful of people over and over, and they represent a tiny, tiny fraction of the entire server. There's no community between Empire and Republic. No server message boards either. And why is a server community more important that a cross-server community? They're just instances on different scales. You're just totally wrong on this one, and even having to respond to it annoys me because I know you didn't even think about it. And the whole "go back to WoW" thing is what imbeciles say when they are trying to defend their favored MMO. I played WoW for the alpha, beta, and 4 months of release, decided it wasn't for me, and left. But you seem to know me so well...maybe after 7 years of not playing it I would love it! God, some people...

 

2) Playing as a team is all fine and good, but when the other side has voice chat and weeks of practice playing as a team, plus 1.5x your HP and damage, it doesn't freaking matter. Are you seriously trying to make this argument?

 

3) My argument just went WAAAYYY over your head. "Get in a guild, do voice chat, blah blah, blah." Did you even read my posts? If that stuff is REQUIRED to have fun in PvP, then the game should REQUIRE those things for participation. If it doesn't require those things, then it should be designed in a way that not having them is FUN. It is not designed in that way. Thus, the issue is GAME DESIGN, not my course of actions. The solution is GAME DESIGN CHANGES, not every player now queueing solo changing their behavior. This is not my opinion. It is a fact. And the evidence that will back it up is people trying PvP solo, losing constantly, and giving up entirely. This has already happened to some degree, and it will continue until only a tiny fraction of players are participating.

 

5) I am comparing purple. You make the rank 22 purple barrel as an armsman. You can't make rank 23 purple. You buy rank 23 purple barrel with PvP tokens. Again, you shouldn't make arguments when you don't have the knowledge necessary.

[Swaay]

I would love something like a league like Blizzard has build for Starcraft II. If I remember correctly they have "skill" brackets. If you win more often you move up into the next and if you loose to much you move down.

 

That way the matches would become much more exciting, and equipment advantages will become less devastating. After all: It's about fun and the players with skill and gear will always be within the top brackets.

 

And, someone mentioned something like that, you will still get to know your opponents even across servers.

 

And queue times would be outrageous...then you all would be here crying about that:rolleyes:

[Thelongroad]

Mythic.

[Swaay]

Dude, you are so wrong, and yet you preach like you know everything.

 

1) No, playing warzones against people doesn't do jack for community. It's the same handful of people playing the same handful of people over and over, and they represent a tiny, tiny fraction of the entire server. There's no community between Empire and Republic. No server message boards either. And why is a server community more important that a cross-server community? They're just instances on different scales. You're just totally wrong on this one, and even having to respond to it annoys me because I know you didn't even think about it. And the whole "go back to WoW" thing is what imbeciles say when they are trying to defend their favored MMO. I played WoW for the alpha, beta, and 4 months of release, decided it wasn't for me, and left. But you seem to know me so well...maybe after 7 years of not playing it I would love it! God, some people...

 

2) Playing as a team is all fine and good, but when the other side has voice chat and weeks of practice playing as a team, plus 1.5x your HP and damage, it doesn't freaking matter. Are you seriously trying to make this argument?

 

3) My argument just went WAAAYYY over your head. "Get in a guild, do voice chat, blah blah, blah." Did you even read my posts? If that stuff is REQUIRED to have fun in PvP, then the game should REQUIRE those things for participation. If it doesn't require those things, then it should be designed in a way that not having them is FUN. It is not designed in that way. Thus, the issue is GAME DESIGN, not my course of actions. The solution is GAME DESIGN CHANGES, not every player now queueing solo changing their behavior. This is not my opinion. It is a fact. And the evidence that will back it up is people trying PvP solo, losing constantly, and giving up entirely. This has already happened to some degree, and it will continue until only a tiny fraction of players are participating.

 

5) I am comparing purple. You make the rank 22 purple barrel as an armsman. You can't make rank 23 purple. You buy rank 23 purple barrel with PvP tokens. Again, you shouldn't make arguments when you don't have the knowledge necessary.

 

Dude, you are so wrong, and yet you preach like you know everything.

 

Who would EVER think that in an MMO, AM MMO!! grouping with people you know, using voice chat and coordinating would give an advantage!!! THE AUDACITY OF BIOWARE!!!!

 

Dude, seriously, your coming across like a kid with bad social skills that cannot find a guild who wants everything handed to them...Give me a buff when I lose!!! I only have fun if I win!! ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!

 

YOU shouldn't make arguments when you don't have the knowledge necessary

Edited January 1, 2012 by Swaay

[Neil_S]

To be honest you just sound like a carebear who wants to be rewarded for not putting effort in.

 

 

 

Well yes, obviously. You play with people on your server. I'm not sure what you expect really.

 

 

 

PVP gear is a reward for playing well. Before you get it you must play well without gear. These players have already played well without gear, and now have gear. You are now doing what they had to do, before they get gear. Gear is a reward, you wear it because you have earnt it. You do not earn something, only to have it mean nothing. If they have gear it's because they've PVP'd more than you, won more than you, therefore will have an advantage over you. As it should be. PVP more yourself, win more yourself, get gear yourself.

 

The other bit I forgot to quote about getting buffed when you lose is just silly, why should you be rewarded for losing? You shouldn't be. You should be rewarded when you win, if you want buffing more then go level. If you want to PVP at a low level when everybodies characters suck then expect to suck in PVP. If you put the effort in to level and you unlock your better abilities chances are you won't lose so much. If you don't do this and you lose time after time, then go and play some more and get a bit better. Don't ask for a reward for being poor. The winners should get a reward, the losers should not get a reward. They should either play more if they need to and level a bit, or they should try harder in the next game, or get a premade group because after all it's an MMO massively multiplayer game and not a massively single player game, or encourage team work via /ops.

 

If someone chooses to PVP at a low level, when they don't have any abilities, OR chooses to play on their own rather with a group, OR chooses to not play with the team via /ops and instead on their own, OR chooses to do all of the above, the common theme here is your choice, which is your own and nobody elses. You should not be rewarded for the things you choose to do, that end up stacking against you.

 

Sigh, more brainless babble.

 

1) Cross-server play, like I freaking said and you freaking quoted. Do they still teach reading comprehension in school these days?

 

2) The people who have great gear now got it playing against less organized people with normal gear. The people trying to gear up now have to get it playing against highly organized, better geared people who've also had more PvP experience. The winners get even more powerful and win more. Thus, there is a positive reinforcement loop: the more you in, the better gear you get, and the easier it is to win, and the cycle repeats. Professional sports take the opposite tack, realizing that competitive balance is part of the fun (there's that word). They give all sorts of advantages to the losing/poor teams, such as higher draft picks, waiver priority, revenue sharing, etc. I realize that winners should get the spoils; HOWEVER, you can still allow this to happen generally without making the losers lose 100% of the time and making it impossible for them to enjoy PvP. The PVP system should be designed not only to reward winners, but to keep people in the system, rather than washing them out with this kind of Darwinistic design approach. It's like that idiotic game Travian, where you win by beating on people until they quit the game out of frustration.