Obi Wan and Darth Vader

[Wolfninjajedi]

Same thing to me. Darth Vader wasn't as powerful as Anakin in the Force but he was stronger in physical power.

 

He was more powerful then his previous self in ROTS, in fact Sidious himself believed that Vader could have still unlocked his potential if he had accepted what he had done and what he became..but he never fully did.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Tsukae]

Lol at the people that think Vader would lose. They really really need to read EU. Vader would have beaten Kenobi still and nothing you say can change that. Vader became so much more powerful over the years after he lost his body. Yeah, he did lose a lot of potential in the accident, but that doesn't mean he didn't continue to grow.

[Tsukae]

Same thing to me. Darth Vader wasn't as powerful as Anakin in the Force but he was stronger in physical power.

 

No, Vader was more powerful than Anakin, he just lost a lot of his potential when he lost his body. He still continued to grow.

[Rayla_Felana]

He was more powerful then his previous self in ROTS, in fact Sidious himself believed that Vader could have still unlocked his potential if he had accepted what he had done and what he became..but he never fully did.

 

This.

 

Obi-Wan beat Vader on Mustafar because of Trollesu simple.

[Castiel]

Rofl, the canon-sourceboys strikes again..

[Slamuel]

No. He barely beat Anakin, in fact he was losing 90%. And Vader wasnt in his prime at that time. Vader was in his prime in the suit.

 

Just no! It only looks like he was losing because he was using Soresu, and not attacking back (as per style). When obi fought anakin, that was his prime. As darth vader, he was slower and had to result to solely power mostly, and could not utilizce djem so that well. He was still a good duelist, but his abilities were diminished.

[Slamuel]

Sources? force unleashed. He upgraded his suit to become resistant to force lightning. QUOTE]

 

then how did sidious defeat him in ROTJ?

[Captain_Zone]

Just no! It only looks like he was losing because he was using Soresu, and not attacking back (as per style). When obi fought anakin, that was his prime. As darth vader, he was slower and had to result to solely power mostly, and could not utilizce djem so that well. He was still a good duelist, but his abilities were diminished.

 

He was using the long forgotten sub-form of Soresu called Trollesu. Especially when he goaded Anakin into jumping.

 

We heard "Don't try it, Anakin! I have the high ground!"

 

Anakin heard "You ain't makin' that jump, nublet!"

[Tuscad]

Sources? force unleashed. He upgraded his suit to become resistant to force lightning. QUOTE]

 

then how did sidious defeat him in ROTJ?

 

This^ The force lightning on Vader was a gameplay gimmick, nothing more. It would have killed him instantly at the end of the Force Unleashed 2. I believe the book ended that differently.

[Toonimator]

I love how people make stuff up to fit their arguement. "Go out and hunt down Jedi; oh but I'm going to make it harder than normal on you...."

But the Emperor didn't send Vader out to hunt down Jedi...not much, anyway (any would've been in the "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader" book, pretty much)... what was accomplished with Order 66 and Vader's attack on the temple was sufficient to break the Jedi Order and drive any remaining Jedi into hiding, removing them as a threat. Individually (or in small groups), they were essentially powerless against Palpatine's schemes and the might of the Empire. Only Obi-Wan & Yoda posed a threat as they had two things the other survivors didn't: knowledge of the Skywalker twins, and a plan to use them and trust in the Force. Everyone else was left adrift, to find their own way of survival. Most just adopted new lives and kept out of the way. Some attempted to strike back, and were largely struck down. The Kessel group may have succeeded if they all knew the plan, and if the 501st wasn't sent by Palpatine to back up Vader (who went there AGAINST Palpatine's orders, because the Jedi leaked info that Obi-Wan was gonna join the group at Kessel in order to lure him there).

 

Ben's line in A New Hope about Vader helping to hunt down & destroy the Jedi was largely taken to mean "Vader was sent out by the Emperor to kill the Jedi over the course of the Dark Times"... but the PT changed that, with Vader's main role in Jedi-slaying happening at the Temple, and with the assistance of hundreds of soldiers. The EU responded accordingly, with having THAT be Palpatine's master stroke in removing the Jedi as a threat by removing the Jedi Order itself. It had nothing to do with sending Vader on trips around the galaxy to ferret out hidden Jedi and slay 'em.

 

That's how it stands now. That's how it's possible for guys like Quinlan Vos and Kai Hudorra to survive. They hide, and essentially quit being Jedi as all it'd do is get them killed. That's why it's possible that Vader's suit and prosthetics hinder his skills rather than enhance them. Lucas has said since '99, I think, that in the OT we only saw an old man, a half-trained kid, and an awkward cyborg fighting, which is why the saber duels in the PT were so full of flashy moves & acrobatics. THOSE duels were Jedi and Sith in their prime; Vader in the OT was NOT in his prime. Powerful in the dark side, yes, but physically he wasn't as agile, and his saber skills not at their peak.

 

EDIT: added a 'the' and removed a 'been' to fix a couple errors

Edited April 12, 2012 by Toonimator

[Castiel]

But the Emperor didn't send Vader out to hunt down Jedi...not much, anyway (any would've been in "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader" book, pretty much)... what was accomplished with Order 66 and Vader's attack on the temple was sufficient to break the Jedi Order and drive any remaining Jedi into hiding, removing them as a threat. Individually (or in small groups), they were essentially powerless against Palpatine's schemes and the might of the Empire. Only Obi-Wan & Yoda posed a threat as they had two things the other survivors didn't: knowledge of the Skywalker twins, and a plan to use them and trust in the Force. Everyone else was left adrift, to find their own way of survival. Most just adopted new lives and kept out of the way. Some attempted to strike back, and were largely struck down. The Kessel group may have succeeded if they all knew the plan, and if the 501st wasn't sent by Palpatine to back up Vader (who went there AGAINST Palpatine's orders, because the Jedi leaked info that Obi-Wan was gonna join the group at Kessel in order to lure him there).

 

Ben's line in A New Hope about Vader helping to hunt down & destroy the Jedi was largely been taken to mean "Vader was sent out by the Emperor to kill the Jedi over the course of the Dark Times"... but the PT changed that, with Vader's main role in Jedi-slaying happening at the Temple, and with the assistance of hundreds of soldiers. The EU responded accordingly, with having THAT be Palpatine's master stroke in removing the Jedi as a threat by removing the Jedi Order itself. It had nothing to do with sending Vader on trips around the galaxy to ferret out hidden Jedi and slay 'em.

 

That's how it stands now. That's how it's possible for guys like Quinlan Vos and Kai Hudorra to survive. They hide, and essentially quit being Jedi as all it'd do is get them killed. That's why it's possible that Vader's suit and prosthetics hinder his skills rather than enhance them. Lucas has said since '99, I think, that in the OT we only saw an old man, a half-trained kid, and an awkward cyborg fighting, which is why the saber duels in the PT were so full of flashy moves & acrobatics. THOSE duels were Jedi and Sith in their prime; Vader in the OT was NOT in his prime. Powerful in the dark side, yes, but physically he wasn't as agile, and his saber skills not at their peak.

 

Well said, Red Two !

[CJ_SAX_MAN]

No. He barely beat Anakin, in fact he was losing 90%. And Vader wasnt in his prime at that time. Vader was in his prime in the suit.

 

This is very controversial.

 

I know personally he never moved that sword around that fast in a suit, but that would be due to more advanced special effects of the later time period.

 

Some people claim that his prime was right before kenobi injured him. Some claim his prime was between 3 and 4 (possibly during the force unleashed times. I don't get too much into that games story because it gets very confusing, especially with all the non-canon options you can take.)

 

I have heard people say that when Sideous found Anakin down by the fire, that look of sadness on his face wasn't sympathy for Anakin, it was dissappointment in the fact that in light of this, Darth Vader would never truly become what Sidious had planned. Of course since then, he tries to replace Vader twice, first with the Force Unleashed guy, nextly with Luke.

 

Though Vader seemed to have a couple of nice little force powers. That force wind he unleashed on Luke seemed potent, along with block blaster bolts with his hand. (odd because his hands were mechanical, same reason he cant use lightning, how would he channel the energy to deflect the blaster bolts?

[Wolfninjajedi]

This is very controversial.

 

I know personally he never moved that sword around that fast in a suit, but that would be due to more advanced special effects of the later time period.

 

Some people claim that his prime was right before kenobi injured him. Some claim his prime was between 3 and 4 (possibly during the force unleashed times. I don't get too much into that games story because it gets very confusing, especially with all the non-canon options you can take.)

 

I have heard people say that when Sideous found Anakin down by the fire, that look of sadness on his face wasn't sympathy for Anakin, it was dissappointment in the fact that in light of this, Darth Vader would never truly become what Sidious had planned. Of course since then, he tries to replace Vader twice, first with the Force Unleashed guy, nextly with Luke.

 

Though Vader seemed to have a couple of nice little force powers. That force wind he unleashed on Luke seemed potent, along with block blaster bolts with his hand. (odd because his hands were mechanical, same reason he cant use lightning, how would he channel the energy to deflect the blaster bolts?

 

Its not that he can't use lighting, its just that if he tried he would have fried his own life support and killed himself.

[Toonimator]

Vader didn't have a "Force wind" power... he just threw a bunch of stuff at Luke, and one of them shattered the window to the massive 'wind tunnel' shaft. It was a change in air pressure that sucked Luke out the window, not some 'Force wind'.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Actually does kinda sound like a neat force power though, being able to control the air in a way you can use it to cut someone. Sort of like tiny blades cutting into the skin, because the air is moving very fast. Edited April 12, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[BrandonSM]

This is very controversial.

 

I know personally he never moved that sword around that fast in a suit, but that would be due to more advanced special effects of the later time period.

 

Some people claim that his prime was right before kenobi injured him. Some claim his prime was between 3 and 4 (possibly during the force unleashed times. I don't get too much into that games story because it gets very confusing, especially with all the non-canon options you can take.)

 

I have heard people say that when Sideous found Anakin down by the fire, that look of sadness on his face wasn't sympathy for Anakin, it was dissappointment in the fact that in light of this, Darth Vader would never truly become what Sidious had planned. Of course since then, he tries to replace Vader twice, first with the Force Unleashed guy, nextly with Luke.

 

Though Vader seemed to have a couple of nice little force powers. That force wind he unleashed on Luke seemed potent, along with block blaster bolts with his hand. (odd because his hands were mechanical, same reason he cant use lightning, how would he channel the energy to deflect the blaster bolts?

 

 

If you go by just the movies, then yeah. Vader seems stronger pre-Mustafar.

 

If you go by movies and EU then, its Canon that Vader was in his prime post-Mustafar. And he became allot stronger, in fact 80% of Sidious. Though without suit he COULD have become much stronger, but he still became stronger with the suit its just that he couldn't have been as strong as he could have been without it.

 

Not sure if I made any sense...

[Rayla_Felana]

If you go by just the movies, then yeah. Vader seems stronger pre-Mustafar.

 

If you go by movies and EU then, its Canon that Vader was in his prime post-Mustafar. And he became allot stronger, in fact 80% of Sidious. Though without suit he COULD have become much stronger, but he still became stronger with the suit its just that he couldn't have been as strong as he could have been without it.

 

Not sure if I made any sense...

 

As Leonard Hoefsteder once said: "I think you're lucky I'm one of the few people in this state that can follow that train of thought."

[AshpoolPhoenix]

Knights in the Old Republic period were a lot more powerful than most Jedi's in 1-6 simply because they had a better understanding of the force and philosphy back then. Satele would whoop Vader's ***.

 

That aide Obi Wan in his prime was fully capable of killing Anakin. But the reason he sacrificed himself was so that Luke could escape and the fact that he knew Vader must fulfill his prophecy as being the chosen one which he did carry out when he threw Sidious into the core to his death.

[Rayla_Felana]

Knights in the Old Republic period were a lot more powerful than most Jedi's in 1-6 simply because they had a better understanding of the force and philosphy back then. Satele would whoop Vader's ***.

 

That aide Obi Wan in his prime was fully capable of killing Anakin. But the reason he sacrificed himself was so that Luke could escape and the fact that he knew Vader must fulfill his prophecy as being the chosen one which he did carry out when he threw Sidious into the core to his death.

 

I'd suggest researching that topic, it is G canon/Word of god canon, that the Prequel Jedi order was the Golden Age of the Jedi Order, Yoda was the greatest warrior of the Light Side the Jedi Order ever produced until of course Grand Master Luke Skywalker, who was the most powerful force user on record.

 

The Rule of Two Sith were the most successful Sith, started by the Sith'Ari himself Darth Bane, and ended with the most powerful Sith Lord of all time Darth Sidious, who started the greatest Sith-controlled Empire ever fulfilling the Grand Plan with the destruction of the Jedi.

 

Old Sith Wars Jedi/Sith were nothing in comparison, apart from say Exar Kun and possibly Vitiate.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Celcionna]

Vader and weak don't go in the same sentance. He was ambushed by 8 jedi in kessel. They used a cortosis blade to short out his lightsaber and he still turned around and killed 5-6 of them. He would've got the last but the 501st showed up and finished them off for him.

 

In fact the jedi master that used the cortosis blade was jedi master shadday porkin. When she shorted out his lightsaber he grabbed hold of her and physically broke her neck.

 

You tel em!

[AshpoolPhoenix]

I'd suggest researching that topic, it is G canon/Word of god canon, that the Prequel Jedi order was the Golden Age of the Jedi Order, Yoda was the greatest warrior of the Light Side the Jedi Order ever produced until of course Grand Master Luke Skywalker, who was the most powerful force user on record.

 

The Rule of Two Sith were the most successful Sith, started by the Sith'Ari himself Darth Bane, and ended with the most powerful Sith Lord of all time Darth Sidious, who started the greatest Sith-controlled Empire ever fulfilling the Grand Plan with the destruction of the Jedi.

 

Old Sith Wars Jedi/Sith were nothing in comparison, apart from say Exar Kun and possibly Vitiate.

 

Even though what you said is the "canon" it's hard to grasp it due to the fact that prior to 1-6 Jedi's and Sith would use force powers of ridiculous proportions.

[Rayla_Felana]

Even though what you said is the "canon" it's hard to grasp it due to the fact that prior to 1-6 Jedi's and Sith would use force powers of ridiculous proportions.

 

And afterwards Grand Master Luke and Darth Sidious were making everybody else look like amateurs in comparison.

 

Sidious was summoning wormholes that wiped out whole fleets of ships and could devour billions at a time, mindwipe an entire planet and use a galaxy spanning battle meditation on his entire empire.

 

Don't even get me started on Luke.

[AshpoolPhoenix]

And afterwards Grand Master Luke and Darth Sidious were making everybody else look like amateurs in comparison.

 

Sidious was summoning wormholes that wiped out whole fleets of ships and could devour billions at a time, mindwipe an entire planet and use a galaxy spanning battle meditation on his entire empire.

 

Don't even get me started on Luke.

 

Yeah sorry, I was referring to movie canon. The books and comics do show otherwise.

Time to start reading the comics again.

 

So the books and comics are canon to the movies?

[Rayla_Felana]

Yeah sorry, I was referring to movie canon. The books and comics do show otherwise.

Time to start reading the comics again.

 

So the books and comics are canon to the movies?

 

There are two universes: The movie saga and the clone wars, Lucas' personal universe.

 

Then there is the Expanded Universe, which is everything but non-canon.

 

Knights of the Old Republic and the Dark Empire comics, are both classed as C(continuity)-canon.

 

Not movie canon, that is the higher form of G-canon.

 

In the Expanded Universe you have:

 

G-canon, the highest form of canon which is the movies, the scripts and even the novels based on the scripts.

 

Then T canon, Television canon which is The Clone Wars and the not yet released live action series.

 

Then we have C-canon which is basically everything else, KotOR and Dark Empire included.

[Captain_Zone]

There are two universes: The movie saga and the clone wars, Lucas' personal universe.

 

Then there is the Expanded Universe, which is everything but non-canon.

 

Knights of the Old Republic and the Dark Empire comics, are both classed as C(continuity)-canon.

 

Not movie canon, that is the higher form of G-canon.

 

In the Expanded Universe you have:

 

G-canon, the highest form of canon which is the movies, the scripts and even the novels based on the scripts.

 

Then T canon, Television canon which is The Clone Wars and the not yet released live action series.

 

Then we have C-canon which is basically everything else, KotOR and Dark Empire included.

 

This^ is what I was actually going to say just now. Ya beat me to it, Rayla.

 

The only way to settle this is with both in their primes in G-Canon. Obi-Wan on Mustafar and Vader on Mustafar. So basically it's the same outcome as before. Obi-Wan trolls Vader into jumping and getting his legs and arm cut off. Trollesu Form FTW.