Heat Blast.... am I missing something?

[chainsawsamurai]

Here's what we give up if we do this hybrid build:

-We lose 10% shielding. This means we have less chance to refresh rocket punch when we shield an attack.

-We lose Oil Slick. Granted, this is an essentially worthless ability as it stands.

-We lose Heat Blast, an absolutely free way to lose heat every 15 seconds.

-We lose a rail shot ignoring 60% of the target's armor.

-We lose a 2% damage reduction.

-We lose an 8% ion gas cylinder damage buff (meh).

 

For all this lost, under your suggestions, we gain:

-A rail shot that ignores 30% of the target's armor instead of 60%.

-A new ability in Incendiary Missile that costs 25 heat and that we have to reapply every 18 seconds to ensure the target is burning.

-A rail shot that vents 8 heat, assuming the target is burning (remember, you've spent 25 heat to get a potential free rail shot that gets rid of 8).

-A rail shot that has a 30% chance on flame burst (a 16 heat ability) and a 45% chance on rocket punch (an ability that is itself depending on shielding attacks to refresh its cooldown) to become free and refreshed.

 

^ this right here. It's wrong.

 

This is so wrong, the very basis of you entire argument is so wrong that the rest of your post doesn't even have a leg to stand on. Here, let me help.

 

 

-You don't lose Oil Slick, yeah it sucks, but you get to keep it. Yay?

 

-Your Rail Shot will ignore SEVENTY percent of the targets armor. That's more, not less.

 

-Incin is great and ensures better threat in the moments you're knocked back, avoiding environmental concerns, or otherwise not on target for whatever reason. Aside from better threat while stuck out of range, a full 18 second Incin is better threat for the global cooldown than anything else you've got. Furthermore Incin -> Rail Shot (not free) is the exact same cost under this build as Rocket Punch -> Rail Shot. You aren't out anything. (OK, I lied, it is ONE more heat spent for better threat output. My bad).

 

-30% chance on Flame Burst (spammable) 45% on Rocket Punch (~5 seconds) is amazing. This can lead to upwards of 4 free Rail Shots during your precious Heat Blast's cooldown. That's 24 heat vented and so much more damage/threat it isn't even up for discussion.

 

-You gain 2% avoidance which cuts the loss of the 2% damage reduction fairly significantly.

 

-Heat Blast IS free, but it is already practically a threat loss compared to Rapid Shots with an Ion cylinder proc. It works out to slightly less than .5 Heat/sec so unless you're at the first gate (40 heat) you are barely gaining anything over not having it and just using Rapid Shots instead.

 

-Refreshing Rocket Punch or Venting 8 heat both have internal cooldowns. They'll be up without your precious 10% shield chance every time they can be up. That argument is just silly.

 

-You gain significantly better single target threat, heat management, and shorter fights. All of this leads to cleaner kills.

 

-You gain a spec that performs much better in all aspects of the game rather than just tanking.

 

 

This leads me to believe you are either trolling, flagrantly ignoring facts for the sake of an argument, or are simply too lazy to actually read tooltips.

 

I don't want to be combative, I'd rather have a chill discussion, but if you're going to shoot down the ST/Pyro spec do it with an actual argument based on how the abilities actually work in game. Not off how you think they'd work in the magical land of Unicorns and rainbows and Leprechaun poop.

 

Furthermore,

 

Perhaps I'm wrong. But thus far the owness is entirely upon you to put up some numbers and show your build actually works as you claim it does. All that we've got right now is bizarre speculation and assertion, while you apparently ignore the myriad problems that arise because of your hybrid build.

 

How the **** am I going to put up numbers? There isn't any parsers. There isnt any combat logs. The only evidence anyone can have is entirely circumstantial because all the evidence that exists is "I tried it for X encounter and liked it better." We exist in an environment that is entirely subjective because no objective data exists.

 

What the hell do I need to prove anyway? I'm using it. I am having a markedly better gameplay experience because of it. You are too dumb to read a damn tooltip and do just enough mental math to realize that 8 heat every 16 seconds < 8 heat more than once every 16 seconds.

 

Try it or don't. I don't care. It is your 15 bucks a month, enjoy your 15 bucks of mediocrity.

 

If you REALLY enjoy the full ST spec, good for you. Kick up a ruckus to have enough of it changed to be worth all 31 points (we're talking at least serious Heat Blast and Oil Slick changes), because you really should. In the meantime I'll enjoy the spec that does more and does it better.

Edited December 31, 2011 by chainsawsamurai

[CLASSlFlED]

With main tanking a raid in mind, the "Hybrid pyro" build just simply isn't acceptible, you're just giving up way too much and not gaining any noteworthy benefits.

 

I can see a popular cookie cutter raid tank spec being something along the lines of this.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301RMGrdorogzZMcbZ0c.1

 

The 3 points in Integrated Cardio Package could instead be 2 in Iron fist & just 1 in ICP, it just determines on how valuable endurance/health is in end-game raiding.

 

The idea of the build is to allow for as much survivability and threat as possible, while maintaining the survivability of the class.

 

The 8 heat vented from Heat blast isn't being given enough credit, that 8 heat effectively allows for you to throw off at least one more ability every 15 seconds (Considering you lose heat during the GCD also) while staying in the "Heat sweet zone", this may not seem like much, but it's more damage, and more threat, WHILE keeping the survivability.

[thxyoutoo]

Why are people trying to say oil slick is bad? It is a 20% dodge for 18 sec trinket on a 1 minute cooldown. Any WOW raider would love this.

[CLASSlFlED]

Why are people trying to say oil slick is bad? It is a 20% dodge for 18 sec trinket on a 1 minute cooldown. Any WOW raider would love this.

 

I too am curious as to why people are saying it's bad.

 

Maybe it's not working as intended, or doesn't effect elite+ mobs, thus making it useless in raids?

[anwg]

Why are people trying to say oil slick is bad? It is a 20% dodge for 18 sec trinket on a 1 minute cooldown. Any WOW raider would love this.

 

It'd be better if it were a buff on us, rather than debuff on mobs, so ranged mobs are affected.

[Kyryck]

^ this right here. It's wrong.

 

This is so wrong, the very basis of you entire argument is so wrong that the rest of your post doesn't even have a leg to stand on. Here, let me help.

 

 

-You don't lose Oil Slick, yeah it sucks, but you get to keep it. Yay?

 

-Your Rail Shot will ignore SEVENTY percent of the targets armor. That's more, not less.

 

-Incin is great and ensures better threat in the moments you're knocked back, avoiding environmental concerns, or otherwise not on target for whatever reason. Aside from better threat while stuck out of range, a full 18 second Incin is better threat for the global cooldown than anything else you've got. Furthermore Incin -> Rail Shot (not free) is the exact same cost under this build as Rocket Punch -> Rail Shot. You aren't out anything. (OK, I lied, it is ONE more heat spent for better threat output. My bad).

 

-30% chance on Flame Burst (spammable) 45% on Rocket Punch (~5 seconds) is amazing. This can lead to upwards of 4 free Rail Shots during your precious Heat Blast's cooldown. That's 24 heat vented and so much more damage/threat it isn't even up for discussion.

 

-You gain 2% avoidance which cuts the loss of the 2% damage reduction fairly significantly.

 

-Heat Blast IS free, but it is already practically a threat loss compared to Rapid Shots with an Ion cylinder proc. It works out to slightly less than .5 Heat/sec so unless you're at the first gate (40 heat) you are barely gaining anything over not having it and just using Rapid Shots instead.

 

-Refreshing Rocket Punch or Venting 8 heat both have internal cooldowns. They'll be up without your precious 10% shield chance every time they can be up. That argument is just silly.

 

-You gain significantly better single target threat, heat management, and shorter fights. All of this leads to cleaner kills.

 

-You gain a spec that performs much better in all aspects of the game rather than just tanking.

 

 

This leads me to believe you are either trolling, flagrantly ignoring facts for the sake of an argument, or are simply too lazy to actually read tooltips.

 

I don't want to be combative, I'd rather have a chill discussion, but if you're going to shoot down the ST/Pyro spec do it with an actual argument based on how the abilities actually work in game. Not off how you think they'd work in the magical land of Unicorns and rainbows and Leprechaun poop.

 

Furthermore,

 

 

 

How the **** am I going to put up numbers? There isn't any parsers. There isnt any combat logs. The only evidence anyone can have is entirely circumstantial because all the evidence that exists is "I tried it for X encounter and liked it better." We exist in an environment that is entirely subjective because no objective data exists.

 

What the hell do I need to prove anyway? I'm using it. I am having a markedly better gameplay experience because of it. You are too dumb to read a damn tooltip and do just enough mental math to realize that 8 heat every 16 seconds < 8 heat more than once every 16 seconds.

 

Try it or don't. I don't care. It is your 15 bucks a month, enjoy your 15 bucks of mediocrity.

 

If you REALLY enjoy the full ST spec, good for you. Kick up a ruckus to have enough of it changed to be worth all 31 points (we're talking at least serious Heat Blast and Oil Slick changes), because you really should. In the meantime I'll enjoy the spec that does more and does it better.

 

GRRRRRRRR! Angryman is angry! Tell you what Champ, I will indeed continue to clear hardmodes and operations in my actual tank spec. I'll continue to hold aggro so nobody can take it off of me. I'll continue to laugh at how instantly defensive and angry you get over people pointing out the flaws in your spec. Like, for instance, where we're getting 40% extra armor penetration from. I count 30% from one talent with two talent points in it, in pyro.

 

You claim that your spec is superior. Of course, you have no numbers to demonstrate this, yet throw out crap like using your spec will nearly double your threat and damage.

 

I will indeed continue to spec actual tank. I'll continue to clear operations and hard mode flashpoints. You can cling to your pretend world where losing all the survivability doesn't have an effect and some how magical rail shots are always on call (4 times per heat blast cooldown I believe you said?).

 

In the meantime I'll enjoy the fact that you're apparently the most defensive human on the planet, who claims that nobody can criticize your precious special snowflake build because there are no numbers out, yet all the while claiming that it's so much better than the standard build.

 

Continue being angry while everybody continues laughing.

[Dekai]

GRRRRRRRR! Angryman is angry! Tell you what Champ, I will indeed continue to clear hardmodes and operations in my actual tank spec. I'll continue to hold aggro so nobody can take it off of me. I'll continue to laugh at how instantly defensive and angry you get over people pointing out the flaws in your spec. Like, for instance, where we're getting 40% extra armor penetration from. I count 30% from one talent with two talent points in it, in pyro.

 

You claim that your spec is superior. Of course, you have no numbers to demonstrate this, yet throw out crap like using your spec will nearly double your threat and damage.

 

I will indeed continue to spec actual tank. I'll continue to clear operations and hard mode flashpoints. You can cling to your pretend world where losing all the survivability doesn't have an effect and some how magical rail shots are always on call (4 times per heat blast cooldown I believe you said?).

 

In the meantime I'll enjoy the fact that you're apparently the most defensive human on the planet, who claims that nobody can criticize your precious special snowflake build because there are no numbers out, yet all the while claiming that it's so much better than the standard build.

 

Continue being angry while everybody continues laughing.

 

No idea why he's getting upset, or even why you're raging like that, but it's actually my spec I came up with in Beta on my Vanguard, but converted it over to BH.

 

As for the armor penetration, here's a version of my build meant for PvE tanking solely. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301rMMrdoroZ0MZbIbbdh.1 2 points in Puncture in the Adv.P tree make rail shot 70% Armor Pen.

 

At the survival comment, losing 10% Shield Rating, vs 2% Ranged defense. Shield rating isn't that much survival for a BH. Shadow or Assassin tanks? Yes. Railshots are plentiful, I've even had 9 in a row due to RNG luck that were of course free, and not only free, removed 8 heat from each one.

 

So, fact is the difference between a pure ST and my Hybrid build is strictly 10% SR vs 2% ranged defense for survival. Hybrid build will have less heat problems and do more DPS. What does this mean? Use what you want, games easymode.

[chainsawsamurai]

No idea why he's getting upset, or even why you're raging like that, but it's actually my spec I came up with in Beta on my Vanguard, but converted it over to BH.

 

As for the armor penetration, here's a version of my build meant for PvE tanking solely. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301rMMrdoroZ0MZbIbbdh.1 2 points in Puncture in the Adv.P tree make rail shot 70% Armor Pen.

 

At the survival comment, losing 10% Shield Rating, vs 2% Ranged defense. Shield rating isn't that much survival for a BH. Shadow or Assassin tanks? Yes. Railshots are plentiful, I've even had 9 in a row due to RNG luck that were of course free, and not only free, removed 8 heat from each one.

 

So, fact is the difference between a pure ST and my Hybrid build is strictly 10% SR vs 2% ranged defense for survival. Hybrid build will have less heat problems and do more DPS. What does this mean? Use what you want, games easymode.

 

The only reason I'm even a little miffed is because Pants-On-Head over there can't bother to read the spec and do a little math. He clearly hasn't even looked at the spec or he would have seen the 70% clear as day.

 

What is really hilarious is how defensive he gets about his "actual tank spec," as if the Devs meticulously crafted this grand symphony of tanking talents for Shieldtech. He obviously has no idea how the whole tree was slapped together haphazardly within the last few months due to last minute changes to the class.

 

The rest of his post, as stated, is so ridiculously uninformed that he's either trolling or stupid.

Edited January 1, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[Dekai]

The only reason I'm even a little miffed is because Pants-On-Head over there can't bother to read the spec and do a little math. He clearly hasn't even looked at the spec or he would have seen the 70% clear as day.

 

The rest of his post, as stated, is so ridiculously uninformed that he's either trolling or stupid.

 

No reason for anyone to get upset over it though. I posted it since I enjoyed the build for tanking and for PvP(with talent swapping), so wanted to share it with others. If they don't want to use it, they don't have too!

 

Play what you like, don't argue over it. Have fun with your characters and the game.

[chainsawsamurai]

No reason for anyone to get upset over it though. I posted it since I enjoyed the build for tanking and for PvP(with talent swapping), so wanted to share it with others. If they don't want to use it, they don't have too!

 

Play what you like, don't argue over it. Have fun with your characters and the game.

 

No, we're good. I could care less if he tries it or not. I didn't even think the initial post sounded angry. I wrote it with my morning coffee and cigarette an that's about as chilled out as I get.

 

Thanks for posting that build. I was considering something like it for a long time but couldn't get over the points spent in low tiers of Pyro to make it work. I recently took the plunge and it has been just as survivable but twice as much fun to tank with. It is a real steamroller in PvP as well.

 

I don't even bother with any talent switching. I keep Oil Slick in PvP for the once every 10 games it is useful. The only change I might consider is for a PvP build with defensive gear I might swap from Puncture to Flame Surge to have more consistent burst with a low crit chance.

 

Certainly a much better build than StormGut or Scorpion or whatever you crazy kids are calling it these days.

[snekadid]

Thats nice when you get 9 in a row, to bad you werent at a casino. however what your playing with is the randomizer and for every time it goes well there is equal times when you wont get a proc out of twice as many skills spammed since the % is less than 50% and you'll be 100 heat with fewer survivability skills wondering what happened to your spam based spec. Besides which as previously stated your throwing points away just getting that far since they all depend on combustion gas and if your using that your not tanking anyways.

 

Its not that its a bad spec, when it works it rolls im sure, but its working too hard to add dps onto something that is supposed to absorb damage. It may be my aversion to gambling, ive always disliked the idea of letting someone/thing else decided whether i pass or fail.

 

Dekai, "games easymode" screams into my ear like a prepubescent kid on XBL telling me they did my mom. Your post sounded more insecure then cocky which im sure was the one you were shooting for, like you were pretending to be the Fonz after being told you stepped in something. If your not enjoying it, then stop.

 

now outside of the 3 man pissing contest and back to the actual topic, it could use a slight boost however the skill is by no means bad. The issue is its being looked at as a dps skill when its more of a utility skill that provides damage. as a on command heat vent with damage i dont see how its a huge detriment to the tree when you would be going right under it anyways, its not like your putting points into the tree just to get to that one talent.

[Dekai]

Thats nice when you get 9 in a row, to bad you werent at a casino. however what your playing with is the randomizer and for every time it goes well there is equal times when you wont get a proc out of twice as many skills spammed since the % is less than 50% and you'll be 100 heat with fewer survivability skills wondering what happened to your spam based spec. Besides which as previously stated your throwing points away just getting that far since they all depend on combustion gas and if your using that your not tanking anyways.

 

Its not that its a bad spec, when it works it rolls im sure, but its working too hard to add dps onto something that is supposed to absorb damage. It may be my aversion to gambling, ive always disliked the idea of letting someone/thing else decided whether i pass or fail.

 

Dekai, "games easymode" screams into my ear like a prepubescent kid on XBL telling me they did my mom. Your post sounded more insecure then cocky which im sure was the one you were shooting for, like you were pretending to be the Fonz after being told you stepped in something. If your not enjoying it, then stop.

 

now outside of the 3 man pissing contest and back to the actual topic, it could use a slight boost however the skill is by no means bad. The issue is its being looked at as a dps skill when its more of a utility skill that provides damage. as a on command heat vent with damage i dont see how its a huge detriment to the tree when you would be going right under it anyways, its not like your putting points into the tree just to get to that one talent.

 

 

It's a 15 second cooldown low damage low heat vent skill as a 31 point skill. That's why people dislike it. For the spec I enjoy playing with it's an RNG cooldown to vent heat and do a lot of damage. So, could be up every GCD, or take 15 seconds.

 

And thanks for the insult? I'm 32, sorry you were offended that I said the game was easy, which it is to me after clearing Hard Mode raids pre-nerfs in another game. You posting that exemplifies you as the XBL kids. The game is not hard, so most specs you can play and enjoy without worry of bringing your group down.

[Ebemidej]

Oh ffs, my post as derailed into a *****-fest. lets all just agree that Heat blast needs tweaked.

 

some people like the more stable slightly higher defense spec with it.

 

some people like the more RNG-ish higher damage spec without it.

 

no reason to ***** at each other.

[Rabbitofdoom]

The question would be do we need that extra shield in raid enviroment. Any point removed from it is giving us more utility.

[Malysoun]

I've noticed with oil-slick that quite often, at least while solo questing, if I happen to be in melee range of something and lay down a slick, I get knocked back out of it and it dissipates rather quickly, that along with the cooldown on it has me thinking it currently a dump point.

 

This is usually in cases where I can't put my back to a wall due to extra groups nearby and I want to be pushed somewhere away from the other groups rather than into them.

[Kyuubil]

At the survival comment, losing 10% Shield Rating, vs 2% Ranged defense. Shield rating isn't that much survival for a BH. Shadow or Assassin tanks? Yes. Railshots are plentiful, I've even had 9 in a row due to RNG luck that were of course free, and not only free, removed 8 heat from each one.

 

.. This is.. flawed logic, and the shadow forums say the same thing, it's a bit boggling for me, really.

 

Yes, shielding is MOST of a shadow's tanking ability.. but uh Empowered tech is shield -chance-, not rating.

 

So they get..

 

4% absorb, and 15% shield chance on a 12 second cooldown with 8 charges they have to maintain..

 

we get 6% more absorb and.. 12% -passive- shield chance.

 

Yes, it's more important to their survival.. but.. doesn't mean it's WORTHLESS to us, in fact, if anything it's MORE useful to us armor + shield = glancing blows, whereas for them, armor + shield = moderately glancing blow.

 

Don't know why people devalue shielding so much ans say it's only for shadows.. everyone gets use out of block T

[Dekai]

I never said it was worthless. But due to how gear is, straight out avoidance from Defense works out better for me then SR.

[Leedaiger]

Hi

For PvP do you use Ion Gas Cylinder and something like this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hRMrdRboZ0MZbIbbdh.1 or Combustible Gas Cylinder an take the slow skills from the Pyro tree http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMRrdRboZ0MZfhMbdh.1 ?

[chainsawsamurai]

Hi

For PvP do you use Ion Gas Cylinder and something like this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hRMrdRboZ0MZbIbbdh.1 or Combustible Gas Cylinder an take the slow skills from the Pyro tree http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMRrdRboZ0MZfhMbdh.1 ?

 

Ion cylinder with a build pretty close to the first. The extra damage reduction, guard, and shield chance (more venting and rocket punches to make for more rail shots to make for more venting) is what makes the spec work.

[Leedaiger]

Thanks for the answer.

[Exactly]

Glad i found this thread, i really had never even considered a hybrid build and was going to use 31/7/3 (the common sense tanking build).

 

I think the hybrid could definitely shine especially when stacking defense gear over absorb. But like a couple people said, it really does not matter as this game is easy compared to its counterparts.

[chainsawsamurai]

Glad i found this thread, i really had never even considered a hybrid build and was going to use 31/7/3 (the common sense tanking build).

 

I think the hybrid could definitely shine especially when stacking defense gear over absorb. But like a couple people said, it really does not matter as this game is easy compared to its counterparts.

 

It is good that it is easy. I'm going to be working on a direct comparison between the tanking trees and abilities of the three classes. I could be wrong, but it looks like we kind of got the short end of the tanking stick. Our cooldowns are definitely pretty lame comparatively.

 

So it being easy enough that a full Shieldtech spec doesn't matter is probably also making it so easy we're still competitive.

 

It really doesn't matter right now. The content is easy, but it's the first tier so of course it's easy.

 

We probably need to get some numbers in line and if it works out like I think we should start complaining now rather than after content gets harder and we're no longer a viable option.

 

In the meantime, enjoy tanking things with non-tank specs and generally having a good time with it.

[pinkwun]

Current Spec:

http://knotor.com/skills#AgMeCQI1SlFaYml6gpGaqrPT2qG6ytHb0gAA

 

Spec I will try once I have 4/5 Champ/Centurion Gear Pieces:

 

http://knotor.com/skills#AgMICBmz09qhusrbU1pqc4***au60tsA

 

Shield tech right now is pretty op. People are really underestimating the IGC. It is a great way to do additional damage. I have no problem burning down heavily geared Juggs or Assassins in tank spec while they are lvl 50 in warzones.

 

Reason I want to try out the pyrotech build is I feel that once I get the extra gear my survivability will scale a lot and I feel like I can sacrifice the 10% shield chance for more dps + burst ability while at the same time increasing my endurance by 3%. Don't feel like you need thermal detonator as you already have railshot that gives you 90% armor penetration/6% damage increase/9% damage increase to burning targets. Not to mention the 45% chance on the cooldown reset is pretty amazing with flame burst because I spam that skill like crazy.

 

I do think I will end up coming back to my Shield Tech build though as I love the survivability and I can literally tank 5-6 people while having one healer focus heal me. ^.^

 

JUST MY TWO CENTS FROM A PVP PERSPECTIVE!

Edited January 2, 2012 by pinkwun

[Rabbitofdoom]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GoMrdRroTZrMbr.1

 

Curently runing around working towards this build. Skiped prototype cylinders because ion cylinder is currently broken and dealing like 40% of tooltip damage. Its around 10 damage increase per proc. Points in empowered tech are a bit of a placeholder till i decde if 9% aim increase is worth more than extra chance to rest cd on main dmg source aka rocket punch.

[Agroovesak]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GoMrdRroTZrMbr.1

 

Curently runing around working towards this build. Skiped prototype cylinders because ion cylinder is currently broken and dealing like 40% of tooltip damage. Its around 10 damage increase per proc. Points in empowered tech are a bit of a placeholder till i decde if 9% aim increase is worth more than extra chance to rest cd on main dmg source aka rocket punch.

 

Ya, hadn't noticed it till just yesterday but my tooltip says 450 or so IGC damage and the proc is actually doing 140. Kinda crappy and I'm probably going to switch over to AP or Pyro thanks to it. Also none of the dps in my guild is 50 yet so I need somebody who can kill healers.