What classes need to be nerfed in pvp?

[meddani]

2 hours ago, sithBracer said:

We tested it out, in the best circumstance we never broke 100k without blade. I'm sure in the most ideal circumstance it might be possible to barely break 100k, but it's probably not going to happen. This is in PvP of course where stats are capped to 336 and we don't get guild/ship bonuses.

I stopped using the maul opener since it was just too unreliable and I would always have to worry about sorc stun bubbles screwing me up. Opening with awakened flame ball lightning really gives me more success in damage and pressure. The DoT autocrits during the duration adding a lot. The distance of ball lightning puts me at ease when attacking sorcs with stun bubble, attacking with a non stun move from 10m doesn't attract attention to me, and I get to keep overload. In warzones, it's ok.

Death knell would've been ok, when we had a decent energized blade talent. But after they secretly nerfed it (and didn't even tell us why), I don't think death knell would be that good. One maul autocrit isn't doing anything. And an extra 30% on subpar melee damage isn't going to fix anything either.

The class is just bad because it's playstyle doesn't fit this meta. It's really only good for quick skirmishes like 4dps arenas, but pretty terrible everywhere else.

yeah those 110k+ crits are pretty much impossible without the red buff from warzones.

disagree about the 30% melee dmg not doing much, you could use it with the BotE tactical (did that in mids and it hits like a truck). 30% are definitely noticable.

your last sentence pretty much sums up deception in 7.0 lol

[sithBracer]

56 minutes ago, meddani said:

yeah those 110k+ crits are pretty much impossible without the red buff from warzones.

disagree about the 30% melee dmg not doing much, you could use it with the BotE tactical (did that in mids and it hits like a truck). 30% are definitely noticable.

your last sentence pretty much sums up deception in 7.0 lol

I still don't think you will get 110k+ crit, even with the red buff. Maybe if you have the 20% crit bonus from 2 voltaic slashes, a +5% crit bonus from scoundrel team buff, both relic procs, a red buff, a mastery team buff from sorc AND an inspiration buff from a sentinel ... then MAYBE you can get over 110k.

I know that death knell worked very well in 75s since I used it there as well in the first week of 7.0 (back when things were still broken and I couldn't even do max damage lol). But that was back before energized blade was nerfed. The buff only lasts 30s and there is a 15s CD on reaping strike, so while you will see a nice hit once or twice, it won't change much. Now if we had the old energized blade, then I can definitely see it being much more useful especially when combined with blade of elements like it was when I used it.

 

[SentinalMasterWW]

Deception Sin fell off from the meta that it was back in 6.0. It's still solid but I think Deception is far better suited for Arena's compared to Warzones. 

Warzone Meta is and will be DOT classes for the current foreseeable future as far as I can tell. 

I think if they were to add to Death knell back it would be this part more likely 

Quote

whenever a stack of Recklessness is consumed, melee attacks receive a 10% damage boost for 30 seconds, an effect that also stacks up to 3 times.

It would have to be adjust obviously to balance it out, Either shortening the time, the DMG boost percentage, or limiting it to stack like twice. 

I can see this giving a much better DPS output for Sin, both Hatred and Deception would benefit greatly. 

However Death Knell is not going to save Deception for Warzones, imo Hatred sin is going to be far better for that due to DOT's being the meta currently. 

I can see the argument of why people don't like shadowcraft as it can be gimmicky relying on Phantom strides from stealth to get your DPS from. 

The one thing I wish the Dev's would do is tell us how PVP factors into class balancing. Obviously there is the old post back in 2017 here, but I feel that its outdated, or should be clarified that this is indeed how classes are still balanced.

 

Edited February 11 by SentinalMasterWW

[meddani]

3 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

However Death Knell is not going to save Deception for Warzones, imo Hatred sin is going to be far better for that due to DOT's being the meta currently. 

 

hatred right now is one of the squishiest speccs out there, always first target in arenas and warzones lol.

edit: nvmd, not worth it to say that because now it'S pretty obvious lol

Edited February 11 by meddani

[meddani]

12 hours ago, sithBracer said:

I still don't think you will get 110k+ crit, even with the red buff. Maybe if you have the 20% crit bonus from 2 voltaic slashes, a +5% crit bonus from scoundrel team buff, both relic procs, a red buff, a mastery team buff from sorc AND an inspiration buff from a sentinel ... then MAYBE you can get over 110k.

110k+ is possible, tried it last night but you really need everything: red buff, auto crit tactical, scoundrel buff (obviously) , the talent that gives you 20% armor pen. on reaping strike and one squishy target lol.

edit: sent inspiraton buff not needed imo.

another edit: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1966548047 like that for example, i don't think he doesn't even have the autocrit tactical

Edited February 11 by meddani

[SentinalMasterWW]

31 minutes ago, meddani said:

hatred right now is one of the squishiest speccs out there, always first target in arenas and warzones lol.

edit: nvmd, not worth it to say that because now it'S pretty obvious lol

I wouldn't put hatred down that quickly yes it is squishy, but with the right tree combine with shadow craft opener and you can terrorize players. Not to mention you have a dot with 30m range that can immobilize target. 

Going back to the melee vs ranged meta, yes range currently is slightly beating out melee, but again I would not put melee down as terrible. AP PT still incredibly strong, all marauder specs are still solid, and juggernaut is really good. 

Imo they need to remove these finisher tactcials, UV blast, ionic, etc. They shouldn't be in the game. 

Playing deception tonight, I can see the issues the spec has and sins in general. The problem is that it doesn't have it's terrifying burst like it used to. 

Overall across the board for every class really, the devs need to look at reworking the trees entirely. A lot of them are poorly made and need to be massively improved to be worthwhile. 

[sithBracer]

2 hours ago, meddani said:

110k+ is possible, tried it last night but you really need everything: red buff, auto crit tactical, scoundrel buff (obviously) , the talent that gives you 20% armor pen. on reaping strike and one squishy target lol.

edit: sent inspiraton buff not needed imo.

another edit: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1966548047 like that for example, i don't think he doesn't even have the autocrit tactical

It is pretty obvious he is using blade. He has 2 stacks of voltage and he doesn't have any relic procs.

The most I ever did with the red buff was in the mid 90s, so for fun I'll say 96k. If I had the extra 20% crit change from 2 voltaic slashes (the 20% bonus crit if you use 2 volatic slashes, it doesn't work if you use lacerate) it would take me to around 102-103k.  5% from scoundrel buff would add maybe 1.5-2k, so that would bring me to 105k. If I had the 3% bonus implant it would add another 3k+ making it around 109k (I'm rounding everything up). So while it would be possible I guess, I don't see it happening more than once in a blue moon without inspiration. It's a nice thought experiment though. Either way you are not getting to 115k consistently and I doubt that the 115k his guildy posted met all of these requirements, so he was more than likely using blade. 

Edited February 11 by sithBracer

[meddani]

1 hour ago, sithBracer said:

It is pretty obvious he is using blade. He has 2 stacks of voltage and he doesn't have any relic procs.

The most I ever did with the red buff was in the mid 90s, so for fun I'll say 96k. If I had the extra 20% crit change from 2 voltaic slashes (the 20% bonus crit if you use 2 volatic slashes, it doesn't work if you use lacerate) it would take me to around 102-103k.  5% from scoundrel buff would add maybe 1.5-2k, so that would bring me to 105k. If I had the 3% bonus implant it would add another 3k+ making it around 109k (I'm rounding everything up). So while it would be possible I guess, I don't see it happening more than once in a blue moon without inspiration. It's a nice thought experiment though. Either way you are not getting to 115k consistently and I doubt that the 115k his guildy posted met all of these requirements, so he was more than likely using blade. 

yeah i noticed it now he has the autocrit tactical because he only has one stack of cloak lol.

he also speccs into the talent were recklesness affects melee skills.

oh yeah 115k isn't consistently it's rather rare , but it is possible.

i try later today to farm some crits, i'll get back to you .

Edited February 11 by meddani

[sithBracer]

4 hours ago, meddani said:

yeah i noticed it now he has the autocrit tactical because he only has one stack of cloak lol.

he also speccs into the talent were recklesness affects melee skills.

oh yeah 115k isn't consistently it's rather rare , but it is possible.

i try later today to farm some crits, i'll get back to you .

Speccing into lightning critical is assumed to be default these days since the other two are terrible for deception.

Let us know you results.

EDIT-so I decided to try to get it for fun by myself on a warzone dummy in rishi SH. The highest I got was a bit over 101.4k. My average was in the 100ks. That was with the extra 20% extra crit chance for using voltaic slash twice and the extra 3% damage from the legendary implant, a maul sunder and a double relic proc from 344 relics. I think we can pretty much wrap up this case.

My stats:

Mastery: 16,399

Power: 12,900

Critical: 5,534

Crit%: 40.79

Crit M: 69.66%

EDIT 2-For fun I tried the same thing only using blade of elements and the highest I got was 127k, which is causing me to doubt the people who said they got over 150k lol. All mastery augments would probably raise it to over 130k. Even at its absolute most impossible best, the highest crit is still just meh.

Edited February 11 by sithBracer

[meddani]

On 2/11/2024 at 7:14 PM, sithBracer said:

 

EDIT 2-For fun I tried the same thing only using blade of elements and the highest I got was 127k, which is causing me to doubt the people who said they got over 150k lol. All mastery augments would probably raise it to over 130k. Even at its absolute most impossible best, the highest crit is still just meh.

yeah my highest yesterday was like 124-125k ish, but that was like 2 times in the 20 bgs/arenas i've played. 150 k is impossible.

 

[sithBracer]

23 minutes ago, meddani said:

yeah my highest yesterday was like 124-125k ish, but that was like 2 times in the 20 bgs/arenas i've played. 150 k is impossible.

 

Well I assumed that in order to get it that high you have to go 0 alacrity and full mastery/power augments, which is obviously just for fun, but then again blade of elements sins are really just troll specs now anyway.

To get over 130k you need to use voltaic slash twice, stealth out when you have double relic proc and then phantom stride + recklessness into reaping strike. And of course it has to be against a sundered hatred sin or something. I think the warzone dummy has a default DR of over 20%? IDK, it's been a while since I got those 130k's in warzones. But even then they weren't common, it was like twice a day I would see it at most.

Edited February 12 by sithBracer

[meddani]

1 hour ago, sithBracer said:

Well I assumed that in order to get it that high you have to go 0 alacrity and full mastery/power augments, which is obviously just for fun, but then again blade of elements sins are really just troll specs now anyway.

To get over 130k you need to use voltaic slash twice, stealth out when you have double relic proc and then phantom stride + recklessness into reaping strike. And of course it has to be against a sundered hatred sin or something. I think the warzone dummy has a default DR of over 20%? IDK, it's been a while since I got those 130k's in warzones. But even then they weren't common, it was like twice a day I would see it at most.

https://i.imgur.com/PXjomLs.png

these are my stats . still not BiS for pvp. plus no bolster involved since this was on the fleet.

i personally never had 130k crits as a sin/shadow.

the only time i hit that was with my conceal oper since you can stack the autocrit from the tactical (backstab) and the talent that gives you a autocrit after crippling slice.

edit: https://i.imgur.com/PaTOok5.png this was the highest crit i've got since they fixed the bolster bug at the beginning of this xpac

Edited February 12 by meddani

[assatrap]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:22 PM, sithBracer said:

We tested it out, in the best circumstance we never broke 100k without blade. I'm sure in the most ideal circumstance it might be possible to barely break 100k, but it's probably not going to happen. This is in PvP of course where stats are capped to 336 and we don't get guild/ship bonuses.

I stopped using the maul opener since it was just too unreliable and I would always have to worry about sorc stun bubbles screwing me up. Opening with awakened flame ball lightning really gives me more success in damage and pressure. The DoT autocrits during the duration adding a lot. The distance of ball lightning puts me at ease when attacking sorcs with stun bubble, attacking with a non stun move from 10m doesn't attract attention to me, and I get to keep overload. In warzones, it's ok.

Death knell would've been ok, when we had a decent energized blade talent. But after they secretly nerfed it (and didn't even tell us why), I don't think death knell would be that good. One maul autocrit isn't doing anything. And an extra 30% on subpar melee damage isn't going to fix anything either.

The class is just bad because it's playstyle doesn't fit this meta. It's really only good for quick skirmishes like 4dps arenas, but pretty terrible everywhere else.

you pre-activate recklessness and Force Shroud before quickly opening with maul after phantom striding to mitigate sorc bubble.  Then you can follow it up with low slash, hard stun etc depending if you like a stun-lock rotation or max burst.

One of the most fun activites in PVP is when you premade 2 good sins and burst in sync you can literaly global within a few seconds a class like sorc with light armor.

But yeh sins are basically poor mans version of AP PT. Decent burst but less defensives, dps, range and burst vs AP PT but compensate it with double stealth. So its really in 4vs4 dps arenas where it only really shines. Range and mobility is very limited vs other melee specs.

 

[sithBracer]

1 hour ago, assatrap said:

you pre-activate recklessness and Force Shroud before quickly opening with maul after phantom striding to mitigate sorc bubble.  Then you can follow it up with low slash, hard stun etc depending if you like a stun-lock rotation or max burst.

You realize that you are wasting 2 recklessness stacks and 2 shadowcraft GCDs on useless abilities that barely do any damage, raising his resolve to max giving him to ok to break, and wasting a shroud. This is a terrible opener. You aren't even going to get a recklessness stack for reaping strike, your biggest hit this way. I would be surprised if you can break 150k with it.

Using this opener with awakened flame: ball lightning -> recklessness + maul -> reaping strike -> discharge I could get 370k+. One more ball lightning is usually enough to kill.

Edited February 13 by sithBracer