I feel they need to clean the slate (story related)

[gasxero]

I've played on and off for 10 years now; but the main threat is done. Now we're dealing with scrubs who by right we should be killing by spamming the 1-key.

We should move on to the era where the Sith Empire has collapsed and the Republic (what's left of it anyway) is ruled over by Jedi Lords...the Galactic dark age that spanned 1000 years.

You can do so much in this era story-wise without the burden of the past; it is a largely unexplored time which culminates (after 1000 years) in the formation of the rule of 2.

And since Swtor has implemented a family tree system your character can just be a descendant of your old one, equipment and all (if players want it to be so).

I dunno, just an idea; i feel the current era has run its course with the Emperor's death...and now these Mando scrubs? I'm supposed to take them seriously? gtfo

[Whykara]

I do feel like something big is probably coming. If not, Malgus is simply a pompous doomsday prophet, which would completely ruin his character. I truly hope Bioware didn't resurrect him just so he ends up like the Maya calendar.

The problem is just that we have no time progression in SWTOR. Other MMOs have separate instances for different times in the story. The only time SWTOR has dabbled in that concept is Ziost. So if there really was a galaxy-wide event, I have no idea how they could possibly pull if off from a technical standpoint. But on the other hand they really have to think of something, or else the whole Malgus story would have been completely pointless. Probably why they are buying their time with the Mando stuff.

[gasxero]

40 minutes ago, Whykara said:

I do feel like something big is probably coming.

God I hope so; cuz what are these mandos gonna even do with a bunch of force using children?

It takes years of training to learn just to be a Mando, and even more to learn to use the force in a competent way.

[Whykara]

26 minutes ago, gasxero said:

what are these mandos gonna even do with a bunch of force using children?

I'm going out in a limb here and say they are not gonna train them. Probably feed them to Heta's holocron machine. 

[Setta]

19 hours ago, gasxero said:

We should move on to the era where the Sith Empire has collapsed and the Republic (what's left of it anyway) is ruled over by Jedi Lords...the Galactic dark age that spanned 1000 years.

I agree with your sentiment I don't particularly agree with who the main villain should be here. The Jedi Lords.  How would these be different than the current Sith Lords?  I mean they're force users we could kill just as easily if not more so.  Satele Shan arguably the strongest Jedi of this generation was trapped by the former emperor along with her students, barely holding on, and buying as much time as she could until we rescued her.  If that's the best the Jedi (or at least one of the best) have what would we be afraid of? Heck, the Jedi & the Sith failed against Zakuul's force users, and scattered across the galaxy.  I'm not sure why the remaining ones would be any good, or strong enough to exert their will on the galaxy.

That said, yea we do need a new big bad, I'm just not sure what though as we've beaten everything under the sun from criminal low life, to an immortal emperor who consumed planets.

[Whykara]

4 hours ago, Setta said:

That said, yea we do need a new big bad, I'm just not sure what though as we've beaten everything under the sun from criminal low life, to an immortal emperor who consumed planets.

In my opinion we don't need a new big bad. We already have opponents, it's Republic vs Empire. That conflict has been ignored for far too long. I want the war to actually get hot. It has never felt like those two powers are actually at war with each other. It's time. 

[Setta]

56 minutes ago, Whykara said:

In my opinion we don't need a new big bad. We already have opponents, it's Republic vs Empire. That conflict has been ignored for far too long. I want the war to actually get hot. It has never felt like those two powers are actually at war with each other. It's time. 

"Conflict has been ignored for a long time"  Literally before the Mando story line it was Jedi under siege which was Ossus, Onderon, Mek-Sha & the launch of 7.0 which was Manaan that was Rep vs. Imps.  If I'm being honest it also wasn't that good either.  So yea moving on to something where I'm not killing no named fodder would be ideal.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Setta

[Whykara]

19 minutes ago, Setta said:

launch of 7.0

I did enjoy Manaan precisely because it was Rep vs Imp. It wasn't that good from any other standpoint and the story was also very mediocre. But it was nice to fight those dirty reps. That being said, 7.0 was almost two years ago.

[Setta]

15 minutes ago, Whykara said:

It wasn't that good from any other standpoint and the story was also very mediocre.

Well at least we agree on that part.  Story of Jedi Under Siege to Manaan was very meh all across the board.  We're fighting for resources, but absolutely no impact was made anywhere. If the chapters were removed nothing of consequence would have happened.  Doesn't matter if you got the resources, or sabotaged your side and made sure they didn't.  Doesn't matter if you played the other side and succeeded or failed as well, nothing comes of it at all from any perspective.  It all just got swept under the rug for oh look new super weapon, that the story will tell you all about over the course of the next 5 years at the rate we're going.  Nah I'm good man.  If this is the quality of Rep vs Imp, sign me up for anything else.  

I mean I get that nothing of consequence happens for a lot of the game, but at least the last time we had Imp vs. Pub on Iokath you got to kill either Acina or Malcom, you lose the Gravestone, and a bunch of other minor things played out (which yea ultimately means nothing, but story wise it seems like something was accomplished).  This last time with JUS to Manaan I honestly can't think of anything useful that happens with the gathering of these resources.  I guess you can kill of some new council members or something, but they're so bloody useless they're of no consequence, or at least a lot less than getting the Empress killed.  Ya no, we need a new direction again.

[Whykara]

Just now, Setta said:

Well at least we agree on that part.  Story of Jedi Under Siege to Manaan was very meh all across the board.  We're fighting for resources, but absolutely no impact was made anywhere. If the chapters were removed nothing of consequence would have happened.  Doesn't matter if you got the resources, or sabotaged your side and made sure they didn't.  Doesn't matter if you played the other side and succeeded or failed as well, nothing comes of it at all from any perspective.  It all just got swept under the rug for oh look new super weapon, that the story will tell you all about over the course of the next 5 years at the rate we're going.  Nah I'm good man.  If this is the quality of Rep vs Imp, sign me up for anything else.  

Yes, the writers of this game have been utterly incapable of writing anything impactful probably since KotFE. But that doesn't disqualify Rep vs Imp as a concept. There are countless great stories that could be told with this premise. Like when was the last time you had a big bad from the opposite faction? The only Republican you've met as an Imp in the last years was is Tau Idair. I literally had to look up her name. When was the last time we saw her? On Corellia? Also she isn't even a threat. There is so much that could be done with it. As you've said, the writing overall sucks. We probably also won't get any satisfying ending to the current Mando and Malgus storyline, even though 7.4 definitely was a step up.

[Setta]

5 minutes ago, Whykara said:

Yes, the writers of this game have been utterly incapable of writing anything impactful probably since KotFE. But that doesn't disqualify Rep vs Imp as a concept. There are countless great stories that could be told with this premise. Like when was the last time you had a big bad from the opposite faction? The only Republican you've met as an Imp in the last years was is Tau Idair. I literally had to look up her name. When was the last time we saw her? On Corellia? Also she isn't even a threat. There is so much that could be done with it. As you've said, the writing overall sucks. We probably also won't get any satisfying ending to the current Mando and Malgus storyline, even though 7.4 definitely was a step up.

I think you pretty much proved my point from an earlier post, when I asked the OP for why bother with the Jedi Lords and how that would be different from Sith Lords.  As it stands everything the Jedi & the Sith have to offer as a resistance to us (the player) are of no consequence. Tau is useless, Satele who was one of the strongest if not the strongest Jedi is useless.  Acina will tell you that the council atm can't fight for $hit, that's why she needs you to get things done.  Hell you can murder a council member in front of her, and she's like that wasn't necessary but lulz....

So ya if everyone is a useless sack, what's the point of prolonging this Pub. vs. Imp. story. Not only did it not go anywhere it doesn't even offer a realistic opposition to the player.  We'd just steam roll anything the other side throws at us.  That's exactly why we need a new big bad. Cause Tau, Malgus, and the others are all a joke at this point. They might as well be red shirts.

[Whykara]

23 minutes ago, Setta said:

So ya if everyone is a useless sack, what's the point of prolonging this Pub. vs. Imp. story. Not only did it not go anywhere it doesn't even offer a realistic opposition to the player. 

Just because the writers can't write a decent character doesn't mean that Imp vs Rep is obsolete. The Empire and the Republic are both realistic opposition and they're both the natural enemy of the other. We just need writers to show us that. 

[DWho]

1 hour ago, Whykara said:

The Empire and the Republic are both realistic opposition and they're both the natural enemy of the other. We just need writers to show us that. 

The problem is that takes two full storylines (one for Imp and one for Pub) or one side has to lose while the other wins. That doesn't provide much incentive for the "losing" side to play the expansion knowing ahead of time nothing you do (or accomplish) matters. With as little content as the DEVs have been able to produce of the last few years (the Expansion cycle is something like 2-3 years now) half the people playing the game would have nothing engaging to play for years (if they are the "losing" faction). You are always going to have to have a third party be the big bad so both sides have something to fight against. Sooner or later you run out of rogue/traitor Sith to fight.

[Whykara]

4 minutes ago, DWho said:

The problem is that takes two full storylines (one for Imp and one for Pub) or one side has to lose while the other wins. That doesn't provide much incentive for the "losing" side to play the expansion knowing ahead of time nothing you do (or accomplish) matters. With as little content as the DEVs have been able to produce of the last few years (the Expansion cycle is something like 2-3 years now) half the people playing the game would have nothing engaging to play for years (if they are the "losing" faction). You are always going to have to have a third party be the big bad so both sides have something to fight against. Sooner or later you run out of rogue/traitor Sith to fight.

I always bring up Makeb as an example of how to brilliantly make a compelling story for both sides, without the need to have two separate timelines. A war has many battles, you win some you lose some. The meeting with Marr right before travelling to Makeb is perhaps the best writing the game has produced until this day. It makes you feel that the situation for the Empire is dire, that they have to grasp at straws to survive and that you are the one to save them. Fantastic setup. At the end, the Empire wins at Makeb. But that doesn't make it any less fun to play as the Republic. Your objective and motivation is just completely different.

It's very sad that the writers weren't confident or capable enough to pull off something similar with Onslaught. I found their approach where the winning side is the side you're supporting extremely lazy. It also makes it nearly impossible to ever reference events of Onslaught in future content.

[MagesKickass]

7 hours ago, DWho said:

The problem is that takes two full storylines (one for Imp and one for Pub) or one side has to lose while the other wins. That doesn't provide much incentive for the "losing" side to play the expansion knowing ahead of time nothing you do (or accomplish) matters. With as little content as the DEVs have been able to produce of the last few years (the Expansion cycle is something like 2-3 years now) half the people playing the game would have nothing engaging to play for years (if they are the "losing" faction). You are always going to have to have a third party be the big bad so both sides have something to fight against. Sooner or later you run out of rogue/traitor Sith to fight.

 

This post touches on what the actual limitation the devs are dealing with. I think if they had the resources to they would have more republic vs empire storylines, but making one batch of content is already a lot of work and having to double that (or more for individual origin stories) and it's simply more cost efficient to spend time creating content that all characters can experience rather than having to create multiple batches of content for different groups of characters.

 

While I understand why, I didn't like how KotFE and KotET shoehorned by trooper, a special forces soldier, into a story very clearly written for a force using character. I wish we were getting expansions and add-ons to the origin story questlines, not just expansions and content unique to each faction.

[gasxero]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:29 AM, Setta said:

I agree with your sentiment I don't particularly agree with who the main villain should be here. The Jedi Lords.  How would these be different than the current Sith Lords?

oh I didn't mean the Jedi Lords would be the enemy...it was just that after the near collapse of the republic, and the constant threat of countless warlords (Sith or otherwise); Many Jedi had to assume control of individual star systems within the Republic just to keep it together...there were even Jedi Chancellors during this era.

The beauty of this time period is that for nearly a millennia there was no centralized power structure in the galaxy...just Sith cults and Warlords going wild after the fall of the Empire...and the Republic barely hanging on by a thread.

 

it just feels lie a time period where you can create nearly any story/conflict you want

[Setta]

  

On 12/19/2023 at 4:02 PM, Whykara said:

Just because the writers can't write a decent character doesn't mean that Imp vs Rep is obsolete. The Empire and the Republic are both realistic opposition and they're both the natural enemy of the other. We just need writers to show us that. 

I mean these are the writers and the limitations (talent & financial) we're stuck with.  That's not going to change.  The only thing that can be changed is what direction they go with.  They've already proven that at the moment they do not have the capability for whichever reason to make this work.

 

On 12/19/2023 at 5:22 PM, DWho said:

The problem is that takes two full storylines (one for Imp and one for Pub) or one side has to lose while the other wins. That doesn't provide much incentive for the "losing" side to play the expansion knowing ahead of time nothing you do (or accomplish) matters.

I'm going to disagree with you here, and agree with Whykara's reply.  There are many ways to do this.  One as Whykara said about Makeb being something the Empire had to fight tooth and nail for (even going against their destructive nature to save a planet) in order to get an advantage and survive, while the Republic was busy trying to save the people of the planet instead but again for a military purpose as well.  Furthermore in my own opinion, it's perfectly reasonable for one side to lose for a bit, but recover ground later and maybe even come out ahead.  The only reason this doesn't work atm is because of the slow pace of the story release.  No one wants to be losing for 6 years before they're winning again, because of the slow pace of the writers.  If we had story progression at the rate that we did with KotfE & KotET's pace this would be an absolutely acceptable alternative.

 

On 12/20/2023 at 12:29 AM, MagesKickass said:

 

This post touches on what the actual limitation the devs are dealing with. I think if they had the resources to they would have more republic vs empire storylines, but making one batch of content is already a lot of work and having to double that (or more for individual origin stories) and it's simply more cost efficient to spend time creating content that all characters can experience rather than having to create multiple batches of content for different groups of characters.

I don't disagree with this.  It's a big part of why I want a new big bad villain instead of trying to make Imps vs Pubs work.  However!  To be fair, the devs would have a lot more time & resources if they didn't do stupid things that nobody ever asked for.  No one told them to change the gearing process from 6.x to what 7.x has become.  No one told them to make heroics & flash points on a rotation (only for them to backtrack on a lot of it) no one told them to completely redesign the UI including but not limited too maps, outfiter, etc.  No one asked for ability pruning, or to get rid of comp pvp.  I'm not sure why they decided to go to 64 bit this late in the game but okay I guess.  And I definitely do not have any idea of why they decided to change the GTN like they did. If the answer was to combat inflation, and remove fees coming back, that could have been done without an overhaul. There's certainly a lot of stuff I'm forgetting / leaving out, but their priorities for the game's devs are completely asinine.  I don't know who's in charge of all these decisions, but they should have been fired long ago.  When the pts feedback is almost always overwhelmingly "yea this is bad, don't do it" and you as a company think silly peasants we know better, and time and time again alienate your players until an exodus happens, and then they realize oh maybe that wasn't such a good idea.  This has been going on for as long as I can remember (and I've been here since beta).  Even back in 4.0 I think it was, when they decided to tie gear to random loot boxes.  We told them it was a horrible idea, they didn't listen.  Players left and most did not come back (some did, myself included).  But time and time again, they've proven that they will tunnel vision on the dumbest **** ever, and run this game into the ground or die trying.

 

[Whykara]

7 hours ago, Setta said:

I mean these are the writers and the limitations (talent & financial) we're stuck with.  That's not going to change.  The only thing that can be changed is what direction they go with.  They've already proven that at the moment they do not have the capability for whichever reason to make this work.

I mean it's just sad because SWTOR does have some great writing here and there. At the moment I feel like a strong narrative direction is missing. The individual pieces we get are not bad, in fact I will repeat it once again that I was positively surprised with 7.4's story. But the whole narrative doesn't seem to go anywhere. How does 7.3 relate to 7.4 for example. Or 7.2. In some interviews Caitlin Sullivan has stated that they kinda make the story up as they go and only have a rudimentary overarching plot planned. Which is fine if you pump out content every month or so, but when it's two story updates a year it really should be an absolutely coherent and well planned out narrative, with strong recurring characters and locations that aren't one-offs like Manaan or Elom. I get that the resources are limited, so please spend them wisely.

[Darcmoon]

19 hours ago, gasxero said:

oh I didn't mean the Jedi Lords would be the enemy...it was just that after the near collapse of the republic, and the constant threat of countless warlords (Sith or otherwise); Many Jedi had to assume control of individual star systems within the Republic just to keep it together...there were even Jedi Chancellors during this era.

The beauty of this time period is that for nearly a millennia there was no centralized power structure in the galaxy...just Sith cults and Warlords going wild after the fall of the Empire...and the Republic barely hanging on by a thread.

 

it just feels lie a time period where you can create nearly any story/conflict you want

This would probably work better as a sequel to SWTOR.  They probably couldn't actually make it though.  They would either need to somehow fast track the fall of the Sith Empire and the fracturing of the Republic in a way that would seem way to contrived or do a timeskip ala KOTFE but even worse.  Then they would have to figure out a way to have planets such as Alderaan, as an example, be updated to that time period while also leaving what is currently there in place.  New characters would still start where they currently do and only 'jump' to the new time period when they get to that point in the story.  The amount of time and effort to put in many, many new locations (even updated ones like the previous example) and the lore that would be needed for someone to even care about what is going on would be ridiculous even for an xpac.  I think a game set in that time period has the potential to be a blast but not as part of this game.

[gasxero]

 

On 12/21/2023 at 3:21 PM, Darcmoon said:

This would probably work better as a sequel to SWTOR.  They probably couldn't actually make it though.  They would either need to somehow fast track the fall of the Sith Empire and the fracturing of the Republic in a way that would seem way to contrived or do a timeskip ala KOTFE but even worse.  Then they would have to figure out a way to have planets such as Alderaan, as an example, be updated to that time period while also leaving what is currently there in place.  New characters would still start where they currently do and only 'jump' to the new time period when they get to that point in the story.  The amount of time and effort to put in many, many new locations (even updated ones like the previous example) and the lore that would be needed for someone to even care about what is going on would be ridiculous even for an xpac.  I think a game set in that time period has the potential to be a blast but not as part of this game.

I had a reply to you in agreement but the the forum decided that every word I used was unacceptable

[Pietrastor]

On 12/19/2023 at 11:36 PM, Whykara said:

I always bring up Makeb as an example of how to brilliantly make a compelling story for both sides, without the need to have two separate timelines. A war has many battles, you win some you lose some. The meeting with Marr right before travelling to Makeb is perhaps the best writing the game has produced until this day. It makes you feel that the situation for the Empire is dire, that they have to grasp at straws to survive and that you are the one to save them. Fantastic setup. At the end, the Empire wins at Makeb. But that doesn't make it any less fun to play as the Republic. Your objective and motivation is just completely different.

It's very sad that the writers weren't confident or capable enough to pull off something similar with Onslaught. I found their approach where the winning side is the side you're supporting extremely lazy. It also makes it nearly impossible to ever reference events of Onslaught in future content.

I agree with Makeb being very well written but you're skipping over some key parts of it and reasons why it worked so well. Reasons that honestly would contradict and go against your desire for an endless, exclusive Imp vs Rep where everyone "wins some, loses some":

- the Hutts as the new 3rd galactic Faction catalyzing the events. Great if you still think you got your "Imp vs Rep" kick covered, but let's not act like it was the main theme of that exp, it was a bonus in a much bigger narrative focused primarly on introducing and fighting with the new, 3rd Big Bads

- the initial ROTHC galaxy-state setup pretty much cancels out Imp-story-progression from the base game. YES it was a great setup and I agree with you totally about that Marr conversarion. But it worked so well precisely because it placed the Empire within a near collapse-state which happened... off-screen for the Imp players. Voss and Corellia are framed as big FAT wins for the Imps with their world arcs yet "off-screen" the Rep side swoops in after and cancels it all out. And at the start of Makeb, it's finally laid out in plain sight to the Imps too, instead of getting hidden/veiled like Taris & Balmorra's varying states are while leveling. Many people did complain about that back in the day

- "Win some lose some" throughout multiple Imp vs Rep expansions would mean that we would always have to end up at an even state basically, so no more great setup like Makeb again. Or setups that retroactively hinder one side with off-screen events. Potentially very controversial and hard to swallow for players and probably another reason why they went with "You win! And you win! Everybody wins!" Oprah angle in Onslaught... I hated it but what else can they do when the story is solely about Imp. Vs Rep...

So yeah, it actually IS extremly tricky to write/set-up compelling Imp vs Rep stories that don't feel meaningless and have potentially big, galaxy-spanning consequences. And don't piss off either one faction of the players. Hence the 3rd parties.

Edited January 27 by Pietrastor

[DreadtechSavant]

Moving the story on, well that's what they are doing.

 

Moving to a state at the hight of the republic won't work for this game as 50% of character are imperial. 

 

They could of done what you said instead of doing KotET, but they did not. Could have jumped 100-1000 years into the future with you (your characters) been frozen but then it would be..... I put in hours to levelling  my companions blah blah blah, so understand why BW did not do this.

Yes could end the game and start afresh but same thing as above. 

 

It really was a shame that the player base hated KotET as to me this is what you were asking, a new start, new enemy. The only real disappointment I had with it, was it was a reborn emperor so to- speck in a stolen body. That was disappointing. Not to mention the time frame, just seemed wrong. For him to have grown children, I mean how long was it from Yavin to the Hunt?

 

What you are asking, I cannot see that ever happening until this game shuts down, even then don't assume you get what you want. As I very much doubt what comes next will be a continuation of this version of SW. So not expecting a direct sequel to this game as this one is to KOTOR

Edited February 5 by DreadtechSavant

[Darcmoon]

13 hours ago, DreadtechSavant said:

It really was a shame that the player base hated KotET as to me this is what you were asking, a new start, new enemy. The only real disappointment I had with it, was it was a reborn emperor so to- speck in a stolen body. That was disappointing. Not to mention the time frame, just seemed wrong. For him to have grown children, I mean how long was it from Yavin to the Hunt?

The time frame between the two was not that long.  He had grown kids because he was 'ruling' both empires at the same time.  That is why he was so distant as the Imperial Emperor for a period before and during the original game.  I'm not sure how old his kids are but I bet they were born just before or just after the Treaty of Coruscant.

[Traceguy]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:40 PM, Whykara said:

We already have opponents, it's Republic vs Empire. That conflict has been ignored for far too long. I want the war to actually get hot.

As long as they get rid of the saboteur thing and actually let us work openly for the opposing side. It's pathetic there are republic children who will never see their father again all because I had to kill them to maintain my cover.

And Rivix should be put to death for murdering that Trooper in the Force Enclave

Edited February 5 by Traceguy

[Sumugi]

Aside from KOTFE and KOTET, the entire game has been nothing but Republic vs Empire.

I, for one, was glad when they finally gave us something else...only to have it taken away again because of all the whiners and crybabies.     It's perhaps irony that what we've got now is fighting trash mobs....