Coming 7.4 GTN changes on the PTS

[DreadzKaiser]

2 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

you aren't losing 447 million in 7.4 because you can't sell anything above 3 billion on the GTN.

But you are free to trade that item to another player directly for 3.447 billion, pay about 8% and have the buyer also pay 8% MORE taxes on the amount they are giving you.

 

I didn't sell something over 3 bill in that example.

I made a before/after comparison of a sale with the exact same buyout price from the buyers perspective.

and it looks like I'm making less than before as a result. Pretend those were 1s instead of 3s if you want, the actual numbers don't matter.

Edited November 6, 2023 by DreadzKaiser

[Darkestmonty]

24 minutes ago, DreadzKaiser said:

I didn't sell something over 3 bill in that example.

I made a before/after comparison of a sale with the exact same buyout price from the buyers perspective.

and it looks like I'm making less than before as a result. Pretend those were 1s instead of 3s if you want, the actual numbers don't matter.

  

1 hour ago, DreadzKaiser said:

If I post something on the GTN with a buyout price of 3 bill right now, I lose 240 mil in tax automatically deducted.

If I post something on the GTN with a buyout price of 3 bill in 7.4, I lose the posting fee and I lose like .4 billion because some of that 3B buyout price is includes the tax that is not going to my wallet by the end of this transaction.

the only difference is when the tax is paid and how visible it is to the buyer. a chunk of the money that was going to the seller is still getting taxed. Doesn't look to me like the tax was shifted to the buyer because you are going to have to adjust the price to compensate if you want to stay competitive.

You can't bypass the COD taxes, the Direct Trade taxes, or the GTN taxes unless you and the person you are trading with are in the same guild for 30 days.

Enjoy trying to justify a tax the buyer is paying, which you have no way of obtaining without the buyer incurring more fees, as a loss in your profits.

That's like going to a store and paying groceries, then the store calculates that .08% sales tax the buyer pays as a loss in their profit margins.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

3 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

  

You can't bypass the COD taxes, the Direct Trade taxes, or the GTN taxes unless you and the person you are trading with are in the same guild for 30 days.

Enjoy trying to justify a tax the buyer is paying, which you have no easy way of obtaining without cost the buyer more credits, as a loss in your profits.

That's like going to a store and paying 100 dollars for groceries, the tax is .08%, then the grocery store calculates that .08% federal tax as a loss in their profit margins.

 

 

You still seem to not understand the difference between a buyout price and a unit price. To clear this up for you:

 

A buyout price, both in the current system and 7.4's system, is what the buyer sees when they make the purchase. In both systems, this price includes the tax.

 

A unit price, in 7.4, is what the seller puts in on the listing screen and is what they receive when the sale goes through. This doesn't include the tax in 7.4.

 

A buyout price of 3 billion in 7.4 has a unit price below 3 billion. So in that poster's example, having a buyout price of 3 billion in both systems gets the seller less credits in 7.4. That's a fact. It's just how the systems work, the tax rate is higher for a 3 billion credit buyout price in 7.4, and the buyout price includes the tax.

[Darkestmonty]

1 minute ago, The-Kaitou-Kid said:

 

You still seem to not understand the difference between a buyout price and a unit price. To clear this up for you:

 

A buyout price, both in the current system and 7.4's system, is what the buyer sees when they make the purchase. In both systems, this price includes the tax.

 

A unit price, in 7.4, is what the seller puts in on the listing screen and is what they receive when the sale goes through. This doesn't include the tax in 7.4.

 

A buyout price of 3 billion in 7.4 has a unit price below 3 billion. So in that poster's example, having a buyout price of 3 billion in both systems gets the seller less credits in 7.4. That's a fact. It's just how the systems work, the tax rate is higher for a 3 billion credit buyout price in 7.4, and the buyout price includes the tax.

If you go to a store in real life and pay 100 dollars for something + 8% tax, does the store count the 8% tax you paid as a loss in their net profits?

Do you think stores are telling their accountants to add in all the taxes customers paid as a loss in revenue?

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

6 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

If you go to a store in real life and pay 100 dollars for something + 8% tax, does the store count the 8% tax you paid as a loss in their net profits?

Do you think stores are telling their accountants to add in all the taxes customers paid as a loss in revenue?

 

You can't really compare this to a real life sales tax since it's not actually shown in the same way. In a real life store, you don't see prices on the shelf including the tax. They show the price the store is selling it for, and then the tax is added on when you check out.

 

The "buyer's fee" in SWTOR doesn't work that way. It's applied beforehand such that the buyout price is the only thing the buyer ever sees, and that's true in both systems. As a result, when using existing market data to set a price, sellers have to include the tax because they can only see buyout prices too, which include the tax. It's not the same.

 

Similarly, again, to make it clear again, the unit price in 7.4 is not the same as a buyout price in the current system, so you cannot compare them. They represent different things. If your example only works when you compare numbers that represent different things, your example is wrong.

Edited November 6, 2023 by The-Kaitou-Kid

[Darkestmonty]

Just now, The-Kaitou-Kid said:

 

You can't really compare this to a real life sales tax since it's not actually shown in the same way. In a real life store, you don't see prices on the shelf including the tax. They show the price the store is selling it for, and then the tax is added on when you check out.

 

The "buyer's fee" in SWTOR doesn't work that way. It's applied beforehand such that the buyout price is the only thing the buyer ever sees, and that's true in both systems. As a result, when using existing market data to set a price, sellers have to include the tax because they can only see buyout prices too, which include the tax. It's not the same.

 

Similarly, again, to make it clear again, the unit price in 7.4 is not the same as a buyout price in the current system, so you cannot compare them. They represent different things. If your example only works when compare numbers that represent different things, your example is wrong.

yes you can because you never had a chance to obtain the Buyers tax to begin with.

Set up a direct trade for the lowest price on the GTN + Buyers tax and you are now paying an additional trade fee for the item + the seller is paying 8% for any amount of credits they input into the trade window

COD and you have to pay the trade tax (non-refundable even if the buyers cancels the COD) and the buyer still pays the trade fee.

Do you currently count trade fees or COD fees the buyers pay as a loss in your profits?

So why are you doing that with the GTN in 7.4?

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

Just now, Darkestmonty said:

yes you can because you never had a chance to obtain the Buyers tax to begin with.

Set up a direct trade for the lowest price on the GTN + Buyers tax and you are now paying an additional trade fee for the item + the seller is paying 8% for any amount of credits they input into the trade window

COD and you have to pay the trade tax (non-refundable even if the buyers cancels the COD) and the buyer still pays the trade fee.

Do you currently count trade fees or COD fees the buyers pay as a loss in your profits?

So why are you doing that with the GTN in 7.4?

 

I'm not? I'm sorry, but bringing trades and COD into this shows, once again, you don't understand the difference between the numbers you're talking about here.

 

The buyout price in both systems is the same number. It's what the seller receives + the tax. That's true in both systems. So if your argument here is that you can't get the tax in 7.4 (which I agree with, you can't, never said you could), the same is true for the current system, so your argument that there's a difference between the two is wrong.

 

You keep trying to compare different numbers and different systems because when you compare the GTN numbers directly where they're actually comparable, your point is repeatedly proven wrong.

[Darkestmonty]

Just now, The-Kaitou-Kid said:

 

I'm not? I'm sorry, but bringing trades and COD into this shows, once again, you don't understand the difference between the numbers you're talking about here.

 

The buyout price in both systems is the same number. It's what the seller receives + the tax. That's true in both systems. So if your argument here is that you can't get the tax in 7.4 (which I agree with, you can't, never said you could), the same is true for the current system, so your argument that there's a difference between the two is wrong.

 

You keep trying to compare different numbers and different systems because when you compare the GTN numbers directly where they're actually comparable, your point is repeatedly proven wrong.

Have fun being enraged because you count the taxes buyers pay for trades, CODs, and future GTN purchases as a loss in your revenue.

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

Just now, Darkestmonty said:

Have fun being enraged because you count the taxes buyers pay for trades, CODs, and future GTN purchases as a loss in your revenue.

 

If that's what you took away from my post, you didn't even read it.

[Toraak]

16 minutes ago, The-Kaitou-Kid said:

 

If that's what you took away from my post, you didn't even read it.

Don't even try. He's not understanding the seller will always be the one paying the tax regardless. The only difference is that Broadsword is making the buyout price look slightly different in appearances. However in reality a 3 billion credit item is definitely being taxed more in 7.4. Seller gets the buyout price, but in reality the item would have sold for 3.4+ billion, so they're just losing 400 million instead of the 240 million now.

[Darkestmonty]

2 minutes ago, Toraak said:

Don't even try. He's not understanding the seller will always be the one paying the tax regardless. The only difference is that Broadsword is making the buyout price look slightly different in appearances. However in reality a 3 billion credit item is definitely being taxed more in 7.4. Seller gets the buyout price, but in reality the item would have sold for 3.4+ billion, so they're just losing 400 million instead of the 240 million now.

Do you count the taxes buyers pay in a trade window as a loss in your net profits?

Do you count the taxes buyers pay in a COD as a loss in your net profits?

Can you post an auction on the GTN above 3 billion credits?

But you are going to count the taxes a buyer pays on the GTN as a loss in your profit... but not when they trade or COD?

[TrixxieTriss]

1 hour ago, The-Kaitou-Kid said:

You can't really compare this to a real life sales tax since it's not actually shown in the same way. In a real life store, you don't see prices on the shelf including the tax. They show the price the store is selling it for, and then the tax is added on when you check out.

While agree that Darkmontys take on the tax in swtor is not correct, this real life example is also not correct in every country that has sales taxes.

For instance in Australia where we have a 10% GST (goods & services tax), it’s up to the store or business to add the 10% tax onto the ticket price customers see. It’s actually against the law for standard retailers to advertise items without the GST added. So in standard retail, the customer doesn’t actually see the tax, except maybe on the receipt . And it’s up to the business to collect the tax & pay it to the govt. 

Which is basically how the GTN is setup on live now. The buyer is paying 8%, but doesn’t see it and  the seller is collecting it & paying it to the system automatically when it takes the 8% out of the credits sent to the seller via mail. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Darkestmonty]

8 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

While agree that Darkmontys take on the tax in swtor is not correct, this real life example is also not correct in every country that has sales taxes.

For instance in Australia where we have a 10% GST (goods & services tax), it’s up to the store or business to add the 10% tax onto the ticket price customers see. It’s actually against the law for standard retailers to advertise items without the GST added. So in standard retail, the customer doesn’t actually see the tax, except maybe on the receipt . And it’s up to the business to collect the tax & pay it to the govt. 

 

Even in Australia a business is not counting sales tax as a "loss in profits" since it is not part of the revenue a store is bringing in.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[DreadzKaiser]

15 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

  

You can't bypass the COD taxes, the Direct Trade taxes, or the GTN taxes unless you and the person you are trading with are in the same guild for 30 days.

Enjoy trying to justify a tax the buyer is paying, which you have no way of obtaining without the buyer incurring more fees, as a loss in your profits.

That's like going to a store and paying groceries, then the store calculates that .08% sales tax the buyer pays as a loss in their profit margins.

 

You are trying to compare apples and oranges man.

Buyout price and unit price are different things

Buyout = Unit + taxes. Our profit is just the Unit price at the end of the day, and cold hard math says I'm making less.

use this in 7.3 and:

3billion = 240 mill tax + profit = 2.76bil going to my wallet

in 7.4:

3B = 400 mil tax + Profit = 2.6 billion going to my wallet

the instant you try to say "but 3.4 billion", you've looked at the wrong number.

Edited November 7, 2023 by DreadzKaiser

[TrixxieTriss]

14 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

Even in Australia a business is not counting sales tax as a "loss in profits" since it is not part of the revenue a store is bringing in.

What point are you trying to make? 

[Darkestmonty]

5 hours ago, DreadzKaiser said:

 

You are trying to compare apples and oranges man.

Buyout price and unit price are different things

Buyout = Unit + taxes. Our profit is just the Unit price at the end of the day, and cold hard math says I'm making less.

use this in 7.3 and:

3billion = 240 mill tax + profit = 2.76bil going to my wallet

in 7.4:

3B = 400 mil tax + Profit = 2.6 billion going to my wallet

the instant you try to say "but 3.4 billion", you've looked at the wrong number.

trying to count the taxes the buyer pays in 7.4 as a loss in your net is some very creative accounting.

[DreadzKaiser]

7 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

trying to count the taxes the buyer pays in 7.4 as a loss in your net is some very creative accounting.

Because it is. The tax is still there. and it's still coming out of the sellers would-be profit. being visibly attached to the buyout price  instead of invisibly removed during the sale isn't changing that a cut of the buyout is being taken as tax.

and the new "only buy the cheapest listing" feature assures that you cannot just keep the same unit price and fully shift the tax onto the buyer.

If you post something for 3 billion, and it sells. do you actually get 3 billion? the answer is no. simple as that.

and before you try, I said "post for 3 billion" not "post for 3.4 billion". Buyout is 3 Bill, not Unit price.

Edited November 7, 2023 by DreadzKaiser

[JakRoanin]

Do you really need 3 bil? Come on why is this such a huge deal in the numbers you all are throwing around? When you talk about anything over ten million you all sound ridiculous it's not real money!

[Darcmoon]

1 hour ago, JakRoanin said:

Do you really need 3 bil? Come on why is this such a huge deal in the numbers you all are throwing around? When you talk about anything over ten million you all sound ridiculous it's not real money!

It’s not much different than saying your characters aren’t real and if they decided to wipe them out you wouldn’t have any reason to complain. What people enjoy/prioritize in game will be different per person but that doesn’t make it any less important to them. 

[JakRoanin]

Characters and credits are two different things! That said there are people with 100's of pc's and you can always make more so both arguments are hollow! Just play the game and you make credits and when you're talking billions losing millions is ridiculous.

[Darcmoon]

10 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Characters and credits are two different things! That said there are people with 100's of pc's and you can always make more so both arguments are hollow! Just play the game and you make credits and when you're talking billions losing millions is ridiculous.

Both are things that people worked to get in game.  BS removing them/deleting them amount to the same thing fundamentally.  Technically they can do it because they own the game but the loss of players would shut the game down, more than likely.   I know personally, I would never be able to trust them to not do it again.  You obviously don’t understand most of the playerbase so I’m assuming that you would have no problem if they did wipe all your characters and money.  The majority of the playerbase would not stand for that.   

[Toraak]

12 minutes ago, Darcmoon said:

Both are things that people worked to get in game.  BS removing them/deleting them amount to the same thing fundamentally.  Technically they can do it because they own the game but the loss of players would shut the game down, more than likely.   I know personally, I would never be able to trust them to not do it again.  You obviously don’t understand most of the playerbase so I’m assuming that you would have no problem if they did wipe all your characters and money.  The majority of the playerbase would not stand for that.   

I agree with this. If they did delete all credits and make us start over I do not believe I'd want to stay playing a game that I couldn't trust those running it. Especially since I stay subbed, and have no plans on going F2P unless I truly uninstall the game.

[DreadzKaiser]

2 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

Do you really need 3 bil? Come on why is this such a huge deal in the numbers you all are throwing around? When you talk about anything over ten million you all sound ridiculous it's not real money!

 

it's the maximum number you can post for, thus has the highest progressive tax hit while still being nice round numbers so it's easy to work with

 

the numbers themselves don't matter, it's the logic behind the math. replace 3billion with 1 million if it's easier

[DreadzKaiser]

1 hour ago, JakRoanin said:

Characters and credits are two different things! That said there are people with 100's of pc's and you can always make more so both arguments are hollow! Just play the game and you make credits and when you're talking billions losing millions is ridiculous.

No, they are the exact same thing: A Time investment.

I would be PISSED if either the Characters I've been playing for years (day 1 player here), or all the money those characters have made over those years, were deleted just because some idiot dev thought it'd be a good idea.

I'd leave and never come back if I felt the devs can just throw away everything I've done just because.

Edited November 7, 2023 by DreadzKaiser

[casirabit]

1 hour ago, JakRoanin said:

Characters and credits are two different things! That said there are people with 100's of pc's and you can always make more so both arguments are hollow! Just play the game and you make credits and when you're talking billions losing millions is ridiculous.

To you, they are two different things, but for some, they are not the same things.  They should never remove something that was gotten correctly, whether it is a character or credits.