GSF premade guild on SS and SF (same guild)

[DakhathKilrathi]

4 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

The reality, which we all know, is premade queue won't pop. It just won't. That's why you're so threatened by the idea. What's at stake are your curbstomps.

for the last time i and most people in this thread play primarily solo

no one is worried they won't be able to curb stomp anymore they just have some basic empathy and think people should be able to play video game with friends what a concept 

you said yourself the premade queue wouldn't pop, so what you want is for friends to have to play alone instead 

[sharpenedstick]

I'll give you a million credits if it really is "the last time." We already covered this ages ago, but since you apparently can't remember, just for short hand we're going to include premade supporters in with premaders, since the Venn diagram of those populations fall into Pi's rounding error (and including people advocating against premades as the "most of the people" who play solo is beyond absurd).

If playing with friends is the real issue (it's not, but let's just say it is), then they should rejoice as, I've said multiple times, they can queue with one other person in "solo" queue or they can queue premade which, according to their own claims, has enough grouping people to pop constantly.

In fact, I'll make this premade separate queue even more generous by specifying that solos can queue in it too if they want, so that the apparently endless legions of solo players who love premades can fill in slots and bask in the glory.

Edited August 3, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[DakhathKilrathi]

I will put this in pretty colors to mimic the crayons I apparently need to use here. 


You need two to three people to form a group. Three people is easy to get. 

You need sixteen people to make a suggested premade queue pop. Sixteen is not easy to get. 

 

Sixteen is in fact more than two or three or even four. 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by DakhathKilrathi

[DakhathKilrathi]

Just now, sharpenedstick said:

This is an unfounded assumption. There's no reason premade queue has to be 8v8 min, or that it can't combine multiple groups.

No? You need sixteen people to pop a match. It is true that a game doesn't have to be 8v8, but the only alternative is 12v12 and getting 24 people is even less likely! 

They could reduce the number of people required to get the queue to pop I guess but those games would kind of suck actually. It's not the same game with fewer people, speaking from experience again. 

We're not just saying it wouldn't pop. We've tried to make it happen on dead servers in the past. It doesn't work. Getting all sixteen people is like herding cats; you're just not going to do it. 

What you're saying is that you don't want people who play in groups to play. You said yourself that it wouldn't pop. Don't now argue that it would.

[DakhathKilrathi]

3 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

Premades don't want to play against other premades.

are

are you new here

Super Serious nights are a thing, though there admittedly hasn't been one for a couple of years now. But the whole point was to have premade vs premade. Seriously just search the forum for it. 

Here have a playlist from one I actually bothered recording too.

It's a few years old now in no small part because the number of players you could pull a team from now and still have time zones work is on the low end. But of course premades want to play other premades. Primarily solo players (hi) were even willing to participate too. 

[sharpenedstick]

lol I remember super serious night. That thread was made specifically in response to the fact that the elites don't want to play the elites (and during another one of these ban premade discussions). It had a slow start, a decent mid, and then died with a whimper.

[DakhathKilrathi]

Just now, sharpenedstick said:

lol I remember super serious night. That thread was made specifically in response to the fact that the elites don't want to play the elites (and during another one of these ban premade discussions). It had a slow start, a decent mid, and then died with a whimper.

"that thread" 

which thread? you do realize there's been more than one right

[sharpenedstick]

The one I'm thinking of was a few years back, so I assumed that aligned with the most recent effort you described.

[Toraak]

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

Don't worry, I wrote to Amnesty International to let them know people were keeping you guys in a forum thread against your will after your arguments had been demolished.

Help is on the way!

Yours is the arguement that got demolished. Your just not comprehending that, because you refuse to read what Dakhathkilrathi actually quoted from earlier threads.

[Toraak]

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

This is an unfounded assumption. There's no reason premade queue has to be 8v8 min, or that it can't combine multiple groups.

No wonder you're so exhausted, you're inventing arguments to argue with. Now I understand why you're all so angry.

Also, it's hilarious that your counter to an 8 man group ("premade" in your only provided definition) can be effectively countered by two or three people.

actually it would require 16. GSF isn't like Arena's it is 8v8 or 12v12. So the minimum number of people a pure Premade queu would require is 16.

[DakhathKilrathi]

i'd also like to clear a misconception here: the largest group you can queue into GSF with is four lol there are no eight man premades out there because it is impossible to do that

edit: i'm told that you actually can now, but this is a relatively recent change. neat. still doesn't change the point i was making earlier and there are still no eight man premades that i've seen.

Edited August 3, 2023 by DakhathKilrathi

[ValeriyaBlue]

10 hours ago, sharpenedstick said:

What they should do is make it so that you can queue with one other person in "solo" queue. Two skilled and coordinated players can impact, if not decide, a GSF or WZ game.

Premades should be put into their own queue (which we all know will never pop because premades are for easy games, but whatever). Players should be able to sit in both queues, just like you could sit in both back in ranked days.

Premaders are 100% against getting them out of normal queue because they want easy games. We know that's the motivation now. Because even those who genuinely believe they're trying to get "steel vs steel" matches know premade vs premade games that aren't pre-arranged are very rare. Amusingly, the second a better premade does get in queue, all the others bail because again, premades are just about easy wins.

This model preserves premade play for those that want it, but improves the queue for most people and most games.

Until then, do what I do. Once I see a premade, I leave the match and stop queueing GSF. Deny them games and they get bored and give up.

You say trying to get “steel vs steel” matches is rare? Well, want to guess what happened just last night, 24 hours ago? Some people queued. It got competitive. Before you know it, I was in command of a premade of four top-notch pilots, flying against an opposing premade of eight additional skilled pilots in a series of extremely heated matches. 
 

How heated, you may ask? How about this? https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/377920985841664011/1136190689160478731/Star_Wars_The_Old_Republic_Screenshot_2023.08.01_-_23.13.30.67.png
This screenshot is taken from the leader of the premade against me. I don’t recall how much had gone on, but I (Sang) was grouped with 3 others and were the top four in damage in the red team (the red team in screenshot). The premade against us was at least 6 of the team shown in green. And this was still early in our clash.

Let me remind you that this happened not just recently, but LAST NIGHT. It hasn’t even been 24 hours since then. 
 

Now, you may ask, how did these premades form? Was it to have easy matches? Hell no! In fact it started off as random queue and both sides called in reinforcements until we were in a slugfest with more skilled pilots than not. I’m pretty confident that without each other, neither premade would have formed. Both premades were formed ad hoc specifically to do battle with each other. 
 

And y’know what? You know what you would have had to do to join either side? Just a single whisper to any member of either group, or a single message in “/cjoin gsf” indicating that you’ll do your best and you’re in. Hell, at any point in time if I’m queuing and someone shoots me a whisper asking if I would group with them the only qualification required is to be nice and to try. That’s it. And if I see, as said below:

8 hours ago, jaingskiratanuul said:

 /cjoin gsf

 /4 anyone want to group up to counter the premade?

95% chance someone will

The only reason I’d so no is if I’ve already got my own counter-premade in the works and in that case you’ve earned an invite. And y’know what? If I happen to be in the premade that needs countering? Then bring it on! I think 50-0 stomps are BORING for BOTH sides. I mean sure all of the players from the groups could have soloqueued and been placed randomly, but matchmaker isn’t known for making balanced teams.
 

With premades we can forge our own teams, fight with our friends against our hated rivals, and share triumph or struggle together in defeat, the loser always searching for another ally to even the odds.

 

TLDR: Premade vs premade can be and is the most exciting type of match. Not only that but you can make new friendships with those you team up with. Bonds forged in battle are the strongest of all, and even if the going is rough then you can always add your groupmates as friends or on other platforms and fight together later. And it’s not like premade vs premade is rare. When’s the last time it happened? Just last night.

[Nightmaregale]

Funfact: If the enemy has a premade of 4 it means that 4 newbs get a win! YAY

That aside. I usualy only fly in a PREMADE of 2. The results in one evening ca 6-8 games: 7 wins that are easy/lopsided where we win easily even if i go afk and maybe 1 fun and interesting game that maybe is a loss (which is good cause i like to loose).

 

So I think even this premade of 2 would count as robbing the normal GSF players of their fun. (while carrying 6 of them to victory)

[Nightmaregale]

Also a question, from the way you guys are talking you fly very regularly.
Here is the question: How many people are in a game performing on a level comparable to your performance?

[sharpenedstick]

11 hours ago, ValeriyaBlue said:

TLDR: Premade vs premade can be and is the most exciting type of match. Not only that but you can make new friendships with those you team up with. Bonds forged in battle are the strongest of all, and even if the going is rough then you can always add your groupmates as friends or on other platforms and fight together later. And it’s not like premade vs premade is rare. When’s the last time it happened? Just last night.

Great! I love hearing how common premade vs premade is. It only strengthens the argument to put them into their own queue.

Remember:

"The fix is A"

"A is why the fix doesn't work"

Is one of premaders main arguments. Keep those stories of premade games coming!

[Darkestmonty]

13 hours ago, Nightmaregale said:

Also a question, from the way you guys are talking you fly very regularly.
Here is the question: How many people are in a game performing on a level comparable to your performance?

Most of the time I'm the top second or fourth player in a match when playing offensively. I occasionally get top kills but have never exceeded 23 kills in one match. I've been trying to hit 25 kills but can't seem to do it. On average I get around 10-15 kills but I mostly focus on defense when playing satellites (I don't chase pilots around if they leave a satellite I am guarding).

I die mostly when I self destruct to change ships or swap positions to rush another satellite. I'm best at evasion because my ships are build for maneuverability, engine power, and missile breaks. I also try to never let my engine power fall below 50%.

[DakhathKilrathi]

5 hours ago, sharpenedstick said:

"The fix is A"

"A is why the fix doesn't work"

Is one of premaders main arguments. Keep those stories of premade games coming!

man if anybody was saying that you might have a point but as it is you're just confirming that you didn't read

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by DakhathKilrathi

[Shwarzchild]

I primarily fly solo. I'll group if my friends are online or if asked, but mostly I log in hit battle and shake my head when Battle over Iokath pops as my first match (always seems to be the case). Because I'm a gigantic nerd about GSF in particular I have a spreadsheet that tracks my k/a/d wins and losses per character, per server, and overall. I've flown close to 3,000 matches in my time in GSF from 3.0 to now. My winning percentage is around 55 percent on SF to 65 percent on SS. I've flown against groups of pilots and the hodgepodge of soloists.  I do think I'm an above average pilot in general, but I did not start that way, and I wasn't that for a long time.  If there's a roflstomp group in que, just take a break from the que for a little bit and try again later. Or change servers. So you or anyone can be a successful pilot and win in a group or not. Just a matter of continuing to que and not letting one match dominate.

[Darkestmonty]

9 hours ago, Shwarzchild said:

I primarily fly solo. I'll group if my friends are online or if asked, but mostly I log in hit battle and shake my head when Battle over Iokath pops as my first match (always seems to be the case). Because I'm a gigantic nerd about GSF in particular I have a spreadsheet that tracks my k/a/d wins and losses per character, per server, and overall. I've flown close to 3,000 matches in my time in GSF from 3.0 to now. My winning percentage is around 55 percent on SF to 65 percent on SS. I've flown against groups of pilots and the hodgepodge of soloists.  I do think I'm an above average pilot in general, but I did not start that way, and I wasn't that for a long time.  If there's a roflstomp group in que, just take a break from the que for a little bit and try again later. Or change servers. So you or anyone can be a successful pilot and win in a group or not. Just a matter of continuing to que and not letting one match dominate.

I play SS, SF, and DM, though I tend to do worse on DM thanks to latency. GSF is my favorite game mode for SWTOR, but it took me months of frustration before I learned how to play well. I think the biggest hurdle was the lack of in game information about what everything was and how it worked.

[sharpenedstick]

16 hours ago, DakhathKilrathi said:

man if anybody was saying that you might have a point but as it is you're just confirming that you didn't read

 

No, I'm confirming that you've still failed to come up with an argument that hasn't been completely refuted. I'm on BG3 for a bit, so that should give you time to try to find one.

5 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

I play SS, SF, and DM, though I tend to do worse on DM thanks to latency. GSF is my favorite game mode for SWTOR, but it took me months of frustration before I learned how to play well. I think the biggest hurdle was the lack of in game information about what everything was and how it worked.

GSF's new player experience does appear to be pretty bad. It's been way too long since I was new at GSF, and the environment at the time was completely different, so I can't compare it to my own. But I've heard from many, many people how rough it was to try and get into GSF. Most didn't survive.

[Stradlin]

On 8/2/2023 at 10:05 PM, philwil said:

Here is the deal.  Though, I understand your discouragement with the premade, look at it from the other side.

That being, every member of that premade, has experienced what you experience.

It doesnt even take a premade to get the outcome you describe.

Matchmaker sucks, yes.  However, matchmaker doesnt take into account 3/4 of a team not contributing to the outcome of a match.

Matchmaker, expects people to be attentive and play like they care and want to win.

The real deal is, most teams are comprised of people who dont want to be there.

So, groups, premades tend to form.  Because people that care about the game, want people who care about the outcome as much as they do.

It sucks, yeah I know.  But, if you could solve the people there to just get a match done no matter how, as long as they dont do anything, or even self destruct, you wont solve the group problem.

As it was intended, GSF was made to be a group based game.

Grouping, lowers the risk of bad players on your team.

All you need to do is, invite like minded people to group with you.  Or, even ask to join one.

LFG isnt just a PVE thing.

 

I think almost everything about this issue has two valid, sensical sides to it, is why it is so hard to figure out how to feel about it.

>>> People wanting to play with their friends and guildies is approx the most natural thing in the world. 

<<<  Funny how often those friends and guildies are some of the best GSF pilots currently online. 4 people "playing with their friends and guildies" often  ruins the match for everybody else.

 

>>> It was meant to be a grp based game! Make your own group and get better than us!

<<< ...This is commonly suggested as a counter flame by somebody in a grp that holds maybe 4 of the top 6 players currently online. In some Disney version of reality, dude who got told off  finds 3 fresh pilots,then a wild  training montage happens and then they beat the evil og grp, cue credits. In practice, almost nobody ever manages to do this and precious few ever even try. The 4 man grp wins like 11 games out of 12 and call it a night.

 

>>>  "Because people that care about the game, want people who care about the outcome as much as they do." It makes tons of sense for competitive people to want more skilled people around them. Winning games is much more fun than losing them,

<<< It would be great if people cared about fun, good matches bit more. Both sides being equally good or equally bad leads to fun matches imo. Emphasis is on " equally",there,  not on "good" or "bad."  Two terrible teams fighting can be a ton of fun for those few in the game who care of it, as long as both teams suck approx as much.   Awesome hot sauce premade winning11-12 out of 12 will..well,  win, but will prolly not find games where they'd break sweat. Things are often bit boring for errybody, that top ace premade grp included. If top -6 of the best pilots in the world are all in the same match, and on the same side, how could it ever  be a good match? Other side gets torn apart, it'll be  50-0 in 5 minutes.

 

 

Personally, I've been in and inbetween every possible extreme of that <<< >>> in my life and times as a pielot.

 

It'd be cool if they tried to disable join as grp for a few months, and see how it'd go. Matchmaker has its moments, sometimes. If no grps are queued, it does seem to be able to split people with tons of GSF cheevos to different grps at least. It'd be curious to see how well it copes if there is never a grp in q pool to confuse it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Stradlin

[DWho]

10 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

It'd be cool if they tried to disable join as grp for a few months, and see how it'd go.

An interesting idea, but the question would be, how many people wouldn't play the game mode then? Right now I see more interest in PVP/GSF when guild groups can queue together (Currently I only do either activity as part of a guild group and I wonder how many others do the same). Maybe a solution for the solo queuing is to lower the number of people needed to initiate a "match". for PVP maybe 6 vs 6 and GSF 8 vs 8. It seems sort of odd to argue against grouping in group content.

[Ramalina]

10 hours ago, Stradlin said:

 It'd be curious to see how well it copes if there is never a grp in q pool to confuse it.

Poorly.   

 

There's not a shortage of queue time with groups absent from the queue.   In terms of lopsided disasters of matches the presence of one better than average player is all it takes.  If the matchmaker would consistently split high matches played/well geared characters fairly evenly between teams, that would make some improvement, but unfortunately it's quite happy to lump globs of players that ought to be on opposite teams together even when they're not grouped.   It's a routine occurrence.

[Stradlin]

3 hours ago, Ramalina said:

Poorly.   

 

There's not a shortage of queue time with groups absent from the queue.   In terms of lopsided disasters of matches the presence of one better than average player is all it takes.  If the matchmaker would consistently split high matches played/well geared characters fairly evenly between teams, that would make some improvement, but unfortunately it's quite happy to lump globs of players that ought to be on opposite teams together even when they're not grouped.   It's a routine occurrence.

 

If we assume matchmaker is completely broken and teams are made purelyn by RNG, then sometimes matches are hopelessly stacked for you. Sometimes they are hopelessly stacked against you. For a very good premade group, matches are stacked for their benefit 100% of time. Other people who fly that night quikcly realize only relevant thing in any match is whether they end up in same side with the premade. 

 

Few years back, I was for a long time stuck with a schedule that'd have me flying super early. Pretty consistently, it was a queue pool of new/disinterested random pilots, myself and another person with 100% GSF achis. Other seasoned pilot was clearly stuck doing his flying at same hour I was.  Matchmaer did great, consistent  job in virtually always putting myself and the other 100% achi person on opposing sides.  

Once MM needs to try and figure out how to balance soloq folks and various  premade grps of various sizes  into two even teams, then it goes completely insane and literally anything is possible. Ofc, its not like a great premade group gives RNG or matchmaker any kind of a change anyway. 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Stradlin

[DakhathKilrathi]

So Despon (you might remember him from his GSF School channel) shared his thoughts on the subject on Discord. He can't post here, but as always he brings valuable insight to the conversation. I'd like to share what he wrote: 

 

Quote

(pre)Made of Honor

A treatise on group dynamics within GSF
by Despon

It was with trepadition and bewilderment that I recently reaffirmed that GSF still exists. Unless I have achieved a permanent state of chronospatial displacement, this year is the ninth calendar year in which I have played Galactic Starfighter. In that odious span of more years than ought to be allowed, I have observed patterns of behavior within the game and in the metaliminal space surrounding it. This includes the venerable GSF forum, which is a maze of flat circle time loops and non-sequiturs spun around a core of vitriol and tilting at windmills. Since everything old is new again, the tender green shoots of Complaintus Premadius have risen from the fertile soil, watered by the tears of those who have ground their teeth down to sharpened nubs as they gnash and wail against the wind.

What of it, then? Whither the honor of pilots? Such is the perfidy of scoundrels and knaves that they would choose to gang up on the hapless, valiant regulars that populate the queue day in and night out. Indeed, this grim tide has sloshed around unabated for the last decade. No, this is not a new problem, if it can be called a problem at all. Why does it happen? Is the Dark Triad to blame? Is it spite, capricious and cruel? Or is there reason lurking behind the malign and twisted visage of the pilots filling dreaded Premades? I will examine this issue inside out, probing deep into the infected necrotic tissue of the game that somehow still pulses with a semblance of life. 

So, it's all just a bunch of jerks, right? Out to kill the queue and laugh merrily along the way? During my excessively long tenure paying attention to this game, I have primarily solo-queued (slang for 'avoiding interaction with others and just slamming the 'Battle' button to meet my fate'). Though I should not admit it lest I be seen as a turncoat and traitor, I have indeed from time to time joined a Premade (a lexical abomination of a word that refers, loosely, to a group of two or more players... though as with many words in the current zeitgeist, the meaning is more subjective than objective). Yes, I -a perpetual outsider- infiltrated even the most infamous of Premades, subbing in for one of the regular marauders when they had occasion to pillage some other defenseless populace. And what did I find among their ranks?

Many assume that the dreaded Premade operates with cold, ruthless efficiency: professional killers dispatching commands and coordinates with ice in their veins and malice in their hearts. What I found shocked me! I can only assume it was some form of ploy or distraction to mask their true intent - coded communications to throw off the unassuming naif they had let into their midst - but those Premade pilots were largely goofing off. They yammered about televised serials or, even more disgustingly, other games. Sometimes, they even opined on their personal woes. All the while, they plied their trade, blasting, capping, slicing, and retrociding. Now and then, someone asked for help at A, B, or C, as the situation dictated. 

I stealthily inhabited other Premades, with a broad range of pilots, and was confounded by the lack of consistency in their motives. Some valued winning above all. Some seemed more like a social club. Others were simply the by-product of frustrated solo-queuers who wanted the guarantee that at least one other competent pilot would be on their team. Some used voice comms. Some simply typed a few queries or abbreviated plans into the chat window. Some shared a silent, solemn pact, content that they could count on at least the allies in their group.

Oh, but shouldn't all of these vicious wastrels be sorted off into their own Premade colony, where they could vie hotly against each other and leave the lowly, gentle reward farmers to collect their trinkets in peace under the asteroid of their choice? I pondered this for forty days and forty nights, while wearing a hairshirt and sackcloth, dining only on whatever ration packs were disgorged from the metal carcass of exploded ticks. Finally, I came to a grim realization, and my heart sank.

The truth was revealed to me, not in a vision, nor coming from the shouted chorus of raging noobs. No, it was simple reason that asserted itself to make clear the reality of Galactic Starfighting in 2023. There are not now, nor have there likely ever been, enough players in one place at any one time to make a dedicated Premade Queue and Solo Queue viable. Maybe in the halcyon days of early 2015, if all servers had merged into one Unicronic monolith, uniting all players in some Great Joining, this could have been possible. Now, it is a distant dream of a time long gone.

Those who join Premades are the stalwarts that keep the queue filled and popping. They are the ones who carry the legions of sessile invertebrates to victory as the sounds of rapids blaze from fifteen k behind them. The problem is not solvable by any player of the game, because a lack of players is the chief problem. Don't misinterpret me: there are more problems than that. Plenty of them! Loads of them. I'm already nearly hoarse from typing all this as-is, so I will leave you to spelunk in the forums to find my still-very-relevant thoughts on many other Galactic Starfighting Problems. 

But here, then, I will offer you a conclusion and some advice.

As a participant in Galactic Starfighting, you have two options regarding your numeric accompaniment. 

To Group, or Not To Group.

If you solo queue, and you are a pilot of any skill or renown, you may often find yourself under siege by those who recognize your name. You will collect a consistently refreshed stack of shiny debuffs quite frequently in those matches, sometimes enough to render you inert. If you rely on the grace of the Scorekeeper to provide you with quality teammates (or if you are enough of a masochist that you seek out the pain of constantly being double- or triple-teamed) you are willfully entering into a bargain where the vagaries of fate determine your personal punishment.

If you join forces with one or more other players for game-related purposes, you mitigate the effect of entropy. You ensure that one less stat line of 0 0 12 630 will appear on your team's scoreboard ledger. You are not guaranteed a win. Even the mightiest Premade (and, again, I have flown with them) cannot compensate for a 12v12 team where there are eight spongelike floaters on their side.

In some alternate universe where GSF had developed in a healthy and robust way, this problem would not exist because the natural evolution of the game space would have taken care of it in an organic way. The game here and now is an abandoned amusement park that still has electricity. You can ride the rides, and they mostly work, even if they're not all that safe. You must gather your party before venturing forth. It's dangerous to go alone. I know that will not stop you, or me, but have the grace to accept your chosen path or seek a remedy that is rooted in reality, not a fantasy of what might have been. 

I've copy/pasted that without formatting, so I apologize if any was lost, though I don't think it was. 

Yes, it's long. Yes, it's still worth your time to read it.