GSF premade guild on SS and SF (same guild)

[DakhathKilrathi]

3 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

I mean, if it is easy to get premades... why would putting them in their own queue make it impossible to find people to play against?

I see we are still not reading what I have to say. 

There aren't that many players to begin with. It's not hard to get a group, but most players aren't looking to play in a group. Finding a group to counter a premade - though again I would like to stress that there really aren't that mahy of those- is easy. Finding a full sixteen players to pop a match? Less easy, even when you have enough people who are interested, and I would know. I've seen it happen for a couple of community events in the past. 

Don't compare the two like they're the same thing; they definitely aren't. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by DakhathKilrathi

[DakhathKilrathi]

Or to break it down into crayons: 

Finding three people easier than finding fifteen. 

[jaingskiratanuul]

2 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

but if you advocate that it is easy to counter premades by forming your own... then why isn't it just as easy to get people to form groups of premades to fight in the premade queues?

when I give a TL;DR I don't intend for people to read it and argue against it without first going back to the original post and seeing if I answered it. Which I did. And which sriia (Dakhathkilrathi) answered more succinctly above this post.

[Darkestmonty]

5 minutes ago, jaingskiratanuul said:

when I give a TL;DR I don't intend for people to read it and argue against it without first going back to the original post and seeing if I answered it. Which I did. And which sriia (Dakhathkilrathi) answered more succinctly above this post.

that's the thing, people who are in here saying "well, just form another premade to counter the premade which consists of some of the best players on the server" while also admitting there aren't enough people to have two premade groups fighting.

[DakhathKilrathi]

2 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

that's the thing, people who are in here saying "well, just form another premade to counter the premade which consists of some of the best players on the server" while also admitting there aren't enough people to have two premade groups fighting.

4 + 4 = 8

8 ≠ 16 

If you were wondering.

[jaingskiratanuul]

6 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

that's the thing, people who are in here saying "well, just form another premade to counter the premade which consists of some of the best players on the server" while also admitting there aren't enough people to have two premade groups fighting.

assuming a premade is already in queue, which would be the only reason to form a counter, the odds of at least one or two good players being in the /gsf channel are decently high. most premades, drako premade nonwithstanding, can be countered with 2-3 vets. setting up a full premade vs premade game takes 16 vets to get started at all, because all games must be 8v8.

 

Numbers do, in fact, exist. and some of them are higher than others.

Edited August 2, 2023 by jaingskiratanuul
avoiding spam

[Darkestmonty]

sounds like premades need their own queue and a 4v4 option since it is, apparently, very easy to form a counter to premades by forming your own premade but impossible to find another premade group to fight against.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Toraak]

2 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

sounds like premades need their own queue and a 4v4 option since it is, apparently, very easy to form a counter to premades by forming your own but impossible to find another premade group to fight against.

It isn't hard to make a 4 person group to counter a premade. What the 1 person is asking for is to make 2 full 8 man premades to seperate them from the normal queu. That's is definitely far more difficult.

 

Besides most premade's in the normal queu are 2, 3, or 4 players anway. So getting 2-3 players together in the GSF chat channel isn't to difficult to counter.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Toraak

[sharpenedstick]

Remember, the premaders exist in the following world:

1. Premades aren't a a problem: So there's no need to address them, and everyone who is complaining is just wrong.

2. Even if premades are a problem, it's trivial to form your own: Apparently, you can instantly make your own equally effective premade (this part is an implicit promise, because they are suggesting this as a response to premades -- that aren't a problem anyway, remember) instantly just by joining /gsf.

3. Despite the fact that you can instantly create an elite premade: Premade-only queues will never pop because it's too hard to make premades.

There's just no squaring their circles, which is why in the end their defense of premades boils down to one factor: "I like premades."

That's it.

And that's valid. They are allowed to like them. But it's not a reason for anyone else to like them.

EDIT: I forgot number 4: "FIX PREMADES NO FIX EVERYTHING NO FIX PREMADES" the GSF equivalent to "but her emails!"

Edited August 2, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[jaingskiratanuul]

2 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

sounds like premades need their own queue and a 4v4 option since it is, apparently, very easy to form a counter to premades by forming your own premade but impossible to find another premade group to fight against.

wow. opinions are one thing but
NUMBERS.
ARE.
NOT.
DEBATABLE.

16 IS IN FACT MORE THAN 4. EVEN 8 IS MORE THAN 4. WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW HERE IS THAT THE TYPICAL PREMADE DOES NOT FLY OUTSIDE OF A GROUP. SO WHEN THEY'RE FLYING IT DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THE POOL OF 2-3 PEOPLE THAT YOU COULD GROUP UP WITH TO COUNTER. also 4v4 would suck balls and I really don't want to explain to someone who spends more time keyboard warrioring on the forums than they do in game why that's the case. It is easy to form a 4-man group. forming 3-4 of those groups is damn near impossible.

[Darkestmonty]

4 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

Remember, the premaders exist in the following world:

1. Premades aren't a a problem: So there's no need to address them, and everyone who is complaining is just wrong.

2. Even if premades are a problem, it's trivial to form your own: Apparently, you can instantly make your own equally effective premade (this part is an implicit promise, because they are suggesting this as a response to premades -- that aren't a problem anyway, remember) instantly just by joining /gsf.

3. Despite the fact that you can instantly create an elite premade: Premade-only queues will never pop because it's too hard to make premades.

There's just no squaring their circles, which is why in the end their defense of premades boils down to one factor: "I like premades."

That's it.

And that's valid. They are allowed to like them. But it's not a reason for anyone else to like them.

EDIT: I forgot number 4: "FIX PREMADES NO FIX EVERYTHING NO FIX PREMADES" the GSF equivalent to "but her emails!"

exactly, so many "easy ways to counter" but oh no, it would be impossible for premades to be in their own queue for the same reasons.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[jaingskiratanuul]

4 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

Remember, the premaders exist in the following world:

1. Premades aren't a a problem: So there's no need to address them, and everyone who is complaining is just wrong.

2. Even if premades are a problem, it's trivial to form your own: Apparently, you can instantly make your own equally effective premade (this part is an implicit promise, because they are suggesting this as a response to premades -- that aren't a problem anyway, remember) instantly just by joining /gsf.

3. Despite the fact that you can instantly create an elite premade: Premade-only queues will never pop because it's too hard to make premades.

There's just no squaring their circles, which is why in the end their defense of premades boils down to one factor: "I like premades."

That's it.

And that's valid. They are allowed to like them. But it's not a reason for anyone else to like them.

EDIT: I forgot number 4: "FIX PREMADES NO FIX EVERYTHING NO FIX PREMADES" the GSF equivalent to "but her emails!"

reading comprehension is hard, I know. but I suggest you try. please. for all our sakes. i'm done, scroll up for my arguments.

[Darkestmonty]

2 minutes ago, jaingskiratanuul said:

wow. opinions are one thing but
NUMBERS.
ARE.
NOT.
DEBATABLE.

16 IS IN FACT MORE THAN 4. EVEN 8 IS MORE THAN 4. WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW HERE IS THAT THE TYPICAL PREMADE DOES NOT FLY OUTSIDE OF A GROUP. SO WHEN THEY'RE FLYING IT DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THE POOL OF 2-3 PEOPLE THAT YOU COULD GROUP UP WITH TO COUNTER. also 4v4 would suck balls and I really don't want to explain to someone who spends more time keyboard warrioring on the forums than they do in game why that's the case. It is easy to form a 4-man group. forming 3-4 of those groups is damn near impossible.

make premades a 4v4 only GSF, maybe no satellites and only TDK matches.

BAM, number issues solved.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Ramalina]

3 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

1. In a working matchmaker, "bad" players are part of the system just as "good" players. The job of the matchmaker is to construct two teams of roughly equivalent winning percentages. Two teams full of bad players that are 50-50 is as good a match as two teams of elite aces that are 50-50, from the point of the matchmaker. Likewise, two teams of half pro and half scrubs that are 50-50 against each other is a fine match.

First of all, "in a working matchmaker" requires a working matchmaker.  Which we don't have as far as team balance goes.   Secondly, from the player experience and overall population standpoint, a half pro and half scrub team is not likely to be a good match.  People like to win.  If you give a player a "fairness knob" to turn, and ask them to adjust it so that the game is "fair" expect them to keep turning it until they're winning 80% to 90% of the time.   Because they're not really after fairness, they're after dopamine release in their brain.  The player-emotionally correct ratio of wins to losses is: just enough losses so that you can fool yourself into believing that your personal skill is the primary determinant of victory.  

        So a kiddie pool isn't as good as PvE, because real players will feel that losing half the time is excessive, whereas a scripted object doesn't care at all if it gets obliterated 90 times in a row.  Still, it's better than the general queue, because aside from losing an "excessive" amount with a 50% win rate, a new player can also generally tell if the victory had nothing to do with their contribution, or happened in spite of their presence.   That's discouraging.   In a kiddie pool environment, the new player's play is just as bad, but since everyone else's is also just as bad, if they make any useful contribution at all it's likely to be a meaningful contribution.   

       In principle I believe GSF has, or at least at one point had, a limited kiddie pool system, in that for some condition like "matches played less than x", it was supposed to preferentially form matches with just players meeting that "new player" criteria.   Not sure if it still exists, not sure if there's the population for it to still work, as Bioware strongly subscribed to the, "any match, no matter how horrendously bad, is better than no match," philosophy and even back then if there was too much of a pause between matches it would dump the kiddie pool players into the shark tank, but there was a clear qualitative difference in the noob only matches.   Also it was a total disaster with even a single competent player mistakenly being put in the pool (I got to experience this a few times when creating new legacies on EU servers back many years ago).     Which shows the chief problem with kiddie pools, by the time a player knows enough to be safely out of the kiddie pool, a player is way too advanced to be allowed in the kiddie pool.  There's no good place to draw the line on skill, just less bad places to draw it. 

54 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

an explicit straw-man.

Says the person accusing others of coming up with a GSF licensing scheme when they are in fact the first person to bring up a license scheme in the thread. 🙄 

 

A GSF license is actually a pretty good idea though, now that you bring it up.   Lots of racing games work that way.   The problem is that it absolutely wouldn't work going off of player stats in PvP matches.  Or at least not without a GSF player population hundreds or thousands of times bigger than it currently is.   There aren't enough people in any particular skill strata to make the skill spread in any given match be narrow enough.   It would have to be based on PvE GSF content,  that's unfortunately extremely unlikely to happen.

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

2. A GSF license prevents any player without from playing, full stop. Separating premades into their own queues still allows those queues to pop, and if players can be in premade and solo queue at the same time, then they can even do both.

How is having an "unlicenced" player pool and a "licensed" player pool fundamentally different from having solo and group queues?   Either way you're classifying players and grouping like classification with like classification.   Based on experience I can tell you that if encountering a skilled premade, player skill on the opposing team is much much more predictive of competitiveness of match than group status of the teams.   If there's a team with 4 solo aces playing against a team with 4 grouped aces, the group status is basically meaningless.   For your desired outcomes, skill based segregation is far more effective than social habits based segregation, and a license scheme would be a skill based segregation.   Your license idea, which you appear to hate, is actually one of the best solutions proposed so far in this thread.   Still problematic, but it has some fundamental merits.

 

I'm more optimistic than Sriia is on the possibility of improved matchmaking.   As in technically feasible, not likelyhood that Devs will ever do anything about it.

Personally I think that there's a fair bit of space to improve matchmaking.   There are tracked GSF match stats that correlate very strongly to skill, for example accuracy (yeah, you have to pull out gunships as a separate group, but that's not that hard as per ship stats are tracked), average damage, average kills, average assists, win rate.   Things that correlate better than matches played or ship gearing status.   So the player sorting probably has scope to be improved.   More important though, is you could add a team balancing step after teams are pulled out of the queue to make a match.   A look at: with this sub-pool of already selected groups of players (solo being a group of 1), is there a better way to balance the teams than the way that the current (terrible) matchmaker did as it pulled them out of the queue?   That'd fix a lot of the matches where there are a bunch of solo queued aces stacked against and all low skill team, because the answer would be: yes if you put half of the players with GSF records correlating with high skill on each team, instead of all on one team, the balance should be better.  The queue we have has enough population to support better matches, what we need is an algorithm that has at least a cursory team balance error checking function.      

   Bioware has generally expressed a "fast pops are the only thing that matters" attitude, but given computational speed, adding a balancing step after the teams have been plucked from the queue wouldn't make a meaningful change from current rates of match formation.   Granted late joins would be an issue, and the UI might have to be changed a bit to account for that, ie it would have to be more like a FP groupfinder where you need confirmations from the minimum number of people before you can load into the pre-match screen, but it's really just swapping one wait time graphic for a different wait time graphic.     The issue is that implementing something like this requires at least mediocre programming talent, understanding of which player stats in GSF correlate strongly with skill, and a feeling by supervisors that trying to significantly improve the GSF play experience for a lot of players is a worthwhile endeavor.   A match maker that's making a decent attempt at team balance even if it doesn't always work is a lot more palatable than one that is clearly not even trying to balance (or is so bad at it as to be indistinguishable from not trying).

 

Yeah, this is pretty much the same "how matchmaking could be improved for GSF" argument I always bring out in these threads, but based on how many arguments it took on "fixing disto-missile balance is important for fixing strike ship class balance," I'm hoping that maybe I might be getting close to the halfway point on improving GSF matchmaking.

[philwil]

Op doesnt realise, this is a ded component of SWTOR, which itself is dyibng.

A game within a game, if you will.

You stated they expected to make lots of money off GSF

Not the case.  You know why?

If they were going to make a lot of money off GSF, they would have launched it on its own merit, and not have it as another component of SWTOR.

The likelihood, GSF gets any attention at all is at this point, extremely low.

We had to fight like heck to get changes at 5.5 And that was when lots more people were still playing.

Not to mention, the 5.5 changes were made to make it even more group-centric.

If this were solo mode, there would be a match maker connecting into 1 v 1's.

As it stands now, you press solo or group you end up in the same place.  As has always been the case.

If you dont want to listen to people who have been here from the start, or near it, I dont know what to tell you.

This type of post, if you look back has popped up many times over the years.  Do a search.

And, you will find what we have been telling you is in fact true.

There have been people like the op, that have come and gone.  As will this one, without seeing any changes because its coming from an unknowing view.

Satele is so slow popping because no one wants to fly there, because of so many afk'ers and sd'ers when they do fly there.

It is just not a good server at all.  Which is shocking because Harbinger server is part of it since the mergers.  Its not because of premades.  The server just blows.

Star forge is fine.  Not great but certainly miles above SS.  SS is pretty much considered dead.

[sharpenedstick]

1 hour ago, Ramalina said:

First of all, "in a working matchmaker" requires a working matchmaker.  Which we don't have as far as team balance goes.   Secondly, from the player experience and overall population standpoint, a half pro and half scrub team is not likely to be a good match.  People like to win.  If you give a player a "fairness knob" to turn, and ask them to adjust it so that the game is "fair" expect them to keep turning it until they're winning 80% to 90% of the time.   Because they're not really after fairness, they're after dopamine release in their brain.  The player-emotionally correct ratio of wins to losses is: just enough losses so that you can fool yourself into believing that your personal skill is the primary determinant of victory. 

 

Again, I don't know why you guys are so enamored with "FIX PREMADE NO FIX EVERYTHING NO FIX PREMADE!!1!!111!" Improving the matchmaker is 100% a good idea. In theory, fixing the matchmaker could even fix the premade issue, if the matchmaker were capable technically as well as personally (that is, the proper people are available) to do so. There's no need to pose any sort of "X is a more important fix." By all means, fix X, Y, and Z. But also premades.

Whether the matchmaker is designed around ELO principles or some kind of player retention matrix isn't known by me, but I assume it is trying its best to arrange what it thinks will be an even game, just that it isn't programmed very well. I could be wrong here. But it doesn't really matter.

1 hour ago, Ramalina said:

Says the person accusing others of coming up with a GSF licensing scheme when they are in fact the first person to bring up a license scheme in the thread. 🙄 

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what straw-men are, and that you just skimmed too fast because I never accused anyone of coming up with a GSF licensing scheme. I described the qualifier as a license because it was a term that could encompass both of the potential restrictions that they provided.

I couldn't use "floor" because the scenario they described would block people for being "too bad" OR "too good." A "license" was simply a way to describe someone who fell into the qualifying middle. Now that I've explained this to you, I'm sure you'll appreciate it.

As for whether it would be a good idea (and here I am using "license" as "floor" because that's how you used it), I don't think an actual requirement is a desirable, but # of games played should definitely be a factor in match maker rating calculations.

1 hour ago, Ramalina said:

How is having an "unlicenced" player pool and a "licensed" player pool fundamentally different from having solo and group queues?

Again, this was someone else's player division proposal, and it was itself not an actual proposal so much as a mistaken restatement of previous proposals.

Would it be a good idea to separate out experienced players from newer players in the queue? Potentially, though I've heard (and anecdotally believe as well) that GSF's population is not sufficient for it to really be workable.

2 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

exactly, so many "easy ways to counter" but oh no, it would be impossible for premades to be in their own queue for the same reasons.

Yeah. It's hilarious to watch them spin.

"The fix is A!"

"A is why the fix doesn't work!"

The sooner they just rely on "I want easy games" or "I want to play with my friends" more than "I want fair matches," the better for them. Until then, it's just a giggle fest.

Edited August 3, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, philwil said:

Op doesnt realise, this is a ded component of SWTOR, which itself is dyibng.

A game within a game, if you will.

You stated they expected to make lots of money off GSF

Not the case.  You know why?

If they were going to make a lot of money off GSF, they would have launched it on its own merit, and not have it as another component of SWTOR.

The likelihood, GSF gets any attention at all is at this point, extremely low.

We had to fight like heck to get changes at 5.5 And that was when lots more people were still playing.

Not to mention, the 5.5 changes were made to make it even more group-centric.

If this were solo mode, there would be a match maker connecting into 1 v 1's.

As it stands now, you press solo or group you end up in the same place.  As has always been the case.

If you dont want to listen to people who have been here from the start, or near it, I dont know what to tell you.

This type of post, if you look back has popped up many times over the years.  Do a search.

And, you will find what we have been telling you is in fact true.

There have been people like the op, that have come and gone.  As will this one, without seeing any changes because its coming from an unknowing view.

Satele is so slow popping because no one wants to fly there, because of so many afk'ers and sd'ers when they do fly there.

It is just not a good server at all.  Which is shocking because Harbinger server is part of it since the mergers.  Its not because of premades.  The server just blows.

Star forge is fine.  Not great but certainly miles above SS.  SS is pretty much considered dead.

I fully understand that it is a standalone part of SWTOR, I also understand that it has a pathetically tiny player base.

Because the player base is so small, grouping needs to be disabled for GSF. If premades are a problem in Warzones where the population is much larger and games happen more frequently, allowing the same issue in GSF is going to have a greater impact on the enjoyment for the majority of players along with player retention.

[sharpenedstick]

4 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

I fully understand that it is a standalone part of SWTOR, I also understand that it has a pathetically tiny player base.

Because the player base is so small, grouping needs to be disabled for GSF. If premades are a problem in Warzones where the population is much larger and games happen more frequently, allowing the same issue in GSF is going to have a greater impact on the enjoyment for the majority of players along with player retention.

Yeah, I'm really not sure what point he's trying to make with the player population numbers. Unless it's "GSF is so small, fixing it is pointless." In which case I disagree, as I enjoy GSF and want it improved. But he could very well be correct in represening EAware's opinion.

[DakhathKilrathi]

does anybody have a brick wall i could bash my head against it might be more productive 

i could just keep copy/pasting old arguments but ain't like they get read anyway so what is the point in that

Edited August 3, 2023 by DakhathKilrathi

[philwil]

No.  You dont get it.  It costs money to do anything with GSF.  GSF is losing them money if they had one guy spend time trying to make it better.

Like in vending.  If a machine makes 30 bucks a year, and its over an hour away.  One service call loses the money we made on that machine for the year.

Same difference.

You are on a losing course.  

As all that have taken your course over the years.

You arent the first one to come up with those ideas.  There are better things to do with their time if they decide to spend any time on GSF.  But its not what you guys have listed here.

[philwil]

3 minutes ago, DakhathKilrathi said:

does anybody have a brick wall i could bash my head against it might be more productive 

i could just keep copy/pasting old arguments but ain't like they get read anyway so what is the point in that

Amen sister!  PREACH!!

 

Im pretty much done here.  No further response, due to inactivity of the op.

Edited August 3, 2023 by philwil

[sharpenedstick]

Don't worry, I wrote to Amnesty International to let them know people were keeping you guys in a forum thread against your will after your arguments had been demolished.

Help is on the way!

Edited August 3, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[jaingskiratanuul]

3 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

"The fix is A!"

"A is why the fix doesn't work!"

The fix is to group invite someone. That only works to a certain number of people, which depends on the time of day. That number never gets to 16. AS SUCH

You CAN typically counter a premade (get 2 people to counter an existing premade)

You CAN NOT stage a full 8v8 premades V premades match without substantial planning

As a clarification, I don't like going against premades. The last time I went over a 2 person team was to counter a premade (sometimes matchmaker will place 2 premades on the same team but that's a matchmaker problem, not a premade problem). I have, however, seen what happens when the GSF discord tries to set up a premade vs premade match. We only got to 7v7 with significant notice. But if you force all premades into one pool, if it pops ever, it will be exceedingly rare. 4 grouped + 4 randoms vs 4 grouped + 4 randoms is possible during peak times, maaaaybe. 

So just make a 4v4 mode for premades, right?

Here's the problem

People will not queue into 4v4 premade matches. Even if you fix the map size problem, force TDMs, etc, you would need 2 premades to queue into it pretty much simultaneously. Grouping people together is far more possible when there's a premade in queue to force people to counter. It's simple psychology. if there's a force to go up against, that you can't avoid, people will team up to go against it. But if the force is nothing but someone queued into a dead mode, no one will be notified to queue against them. They have to ask in chat for another 4 people to group and queue. and why would you? It's entirely possible they're better, or they're in VC, or they're a bomber/gunship stack, or whatever. The alternative, going in regular queue against 1-3 of the other people where you're still better than 75% of the enemy team, is so much more fun. You have an advantage, even if you end up against a few other skilled pilots. There is still food to pump your numbers.

Go ahead, insist that going for numbers is bad, that it's greedy, whatever.

But it's not. for a lot of players it's a measure of improvement, how far they've come from the days when they were just a drain on their team and couldn't tell if an enemy was out of range.

But that's not the point. the point is that, when you ban premades from a queue in a game with low population, you stop them from playing the game for at least 50% of the time that everyone else can.

So we end up with two possible outcomes.

1. Players in reg queue have a better experience, sometimes. Other times, it's the same as before. Matchmaker sucks, so when there's only one ace in queue, or when matchmaker puts 3 aces on one team vs a few vets and a bunch of food ships, or whenever matchmaker just decides to work improperly, matches will be just as bad (but maybe a bit longer?). Premades will be locked out of queue for 50-75% of the day, and only at peak times will they get probably unbalanced matches.
    
2. Premades are allowed in regular queue. They're pretty happy. Normal players see the premades, get crushed a few times, then have the bright idea to group up a bit and counter the crap out of them. It works, or it doesn't. either way, more competitive, likely less spawn camping and closer, more fun games for everyone. Depending on the premade, they either keep going and keep queue going with some really competitive matches, or they quit. Oh well. Counter group breaks up, and because they likely brought in skill from other areas of the game (flashpoints, operations, PVP, the like), those people stay, and because matchmaker has more to work with matches are again more fun for everyone.

All you two need to do is join the GSF channel, and when you see a premade call out for people to go ahead and join up. counter the premade, have some fun, competitive matches. When the premade logs off, break up and refill the queue with singles. I suggest you try it. Counter the premades. Have some fun. Forget about personal grudges or the need to win an argument. Then come back here and let us all know what you think of the experience. I'll be sitting around in one of the GSF channels. i'll join up if I see the call. Just try it a few times. Then make an argument. it could be fun! And if it's not, fine. Still report back, do the whole thing, at least then you will have tried a solution that doesn't involve the low chance that BS comes in here and changes GSF on a fundamental level.

Until that happens i'm not going to argue the same points over and over again. BS will never remove premading from an online game and deprive people who just want to fly with their friends of the pleasure. it's simply not in the MMO playbook. In MMOs, balance is not the top priority. Want GSF to be an Esport? make a clone. I know some people in the discord who would gladly help out. But if not, just try countering. Premades are not an unsolvable problem, but it takes the actions of people in game to solve them. So try it. I promise it's enjoyable to get those insufferable skillless players.

[sharpenedstick]

Again, if the answer to premades is making a premade, then that means if premades were in their own queue, that queue would pop. So it would be only win-win, because people who don't want to deal with premades don't, and those who do, do.

The reality, which we all know, is premade queue won't pop. It just won't. That's why you're so threatened by the idea. What's at stake are your curbstomps.

It's why this topic pops up repeatedly on the GSF and WZ forums.

 

[DakhathKilrathi]

22 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

after your arguments had been demolished

p sure that would require someone read them to begin with 

and it's hard to tell if that happened. if it did, they never got a response