Torian's New Role & Plans for Vette

[EAFSAMWISE]

Most players who've gotten far enough and have played through the Knights of the Eternal Throne expansion till the end will be faced with the obvious difficult choice of saving either Vette or Torian when both are surrounded on Odessen during the battle with Vaylin's forces. Whoever we choose to save first lives, the other has their neck broken by Vaylin in front of us, etc. 

Most people would suggest minimizing the role of BOTH these characters after this point in order to avoid the appearance of potential content which players could miss if they've already made their decision before the new update came out. However, those who've played the 'Spirit of Vengeance' flashpoint and anything else pertaining to the new Mandalorian "side-plot" involving Field Marshal Heta Kol will see that Torian features prominently in some ways and that his clan's banner is taken and destroyed and he's present for multiple battles and conversations involving the new Mandalorian conflict. Anyone already played past the point where they chose to save Vette instead before these new updates? Tough luck, better play all the way through again.

However, is it possible that new dialogue and story elements could also be in store for Vette in future quests for those who saved her? In the Sith Warrior quest-line she's shown to have a sister named Teva and also was childhood friends with Risha from the Smuggler questline.

 

[Darthmoriquendi]

3 hours ago, EAFSAMWISE said:

Most players who've gotten far enough and have played through the Knights of the Eternal Throne expansion till the end will be faced with the obvious difficult choice of saving either Vette or Torian when both are surrounded on Odessen during the battle with Vaylin's forces. Whoever we choose to save first lives, the other has their neck broken by Vaylin in front of us, etc. 

Most people would suggest minimizing the role of BOTH these characters after this point in order to avoid the appearance of potential content which players could miss if they've already made their decision before the new update came out. However, those who've played the 'Spirit of Vengeance' flashpoint and anything else pertaining to the new Mandalorian "side-plot" involving Field Marshal Heta Kol will see that Torian features prominently in some ways and that his clan's banner is taken and destroyed and he's present for multiple battles and conversations involving the new Mandalorian conflict. Anyone already played past the point where they chose to save Vette instead before these new updates? Tough luck, better play all the way through again.

However, is it possible that new dialogue and story elements could also be in store for Vette in future quests for those who saved her? In the Sith Warrior quest-line she's shown to have a sister named Teva and also was childhood friends with Risha from the Smuggler questline.

 

Bioware has stated they are not going to completely write characters out of story anymore if they had a kill option prior. Usually light side choices are cannon, but in Torian and Vettes case it was just a decision. Similar to Kaiden and Ashley in Mass Effect. It sucks because because both are beloved characters.

Most people have several characters to play through content. Since this story is based around Mandalorian, it makes sense to throw Torian in the story. Just like Arcann and the Darth Nul content. And even Theron Shan showing up time to time.

I'm happy Bioware is going this route instead of completely eliminating characters in future content because of bad kill option decisions they made earlier, and because people need to get their darkside on and making light side players suffer because of it. 

Just run another character through the story. I saved Torian on two of my BH characters because he was an original companion. All the rest I saved Vette because of obvious reasons. Ruhnuk was fine without Torian and I plan to run my powertech through it to experience the story with him. Maybe someday we get some smuggler story where Vette is involved. 

[SteveTheCynic]

7 hours ago, Darthmoriquendi said:

Usually light side choices are cannon

[citation needed]

[EAFSAMWISE]

18 hours ago, Darthmoriquendi said:

Most people have several characters to play through content. Since this story is based around Mandalorian, it makes sense to throw Torian in the story. Just like Arcann and the Darth Nul content. And even Theron Shan showing up time to time.

I'm happy Bioware is going this route instead of completely eliminating characters in future content because of bad kill option decisions they made earlier, and because people need to get their darkside on and making light side players suffer because of it. 

Just run another character through the story. I saved Torian on two of my BH characters because he was an original companion. All the rest I saved Vette because of obvious reasons. Ruhnuk was fine without Torian and I plan to run my powertech through it to experience the story with him. Maybe someday we get some smuggler story where Vette is involved. 

I partially agree with this. I've actually been making repeated pitches on both this forum and the Reddit page for an expansion involving the Slave Trade where Vette and perhaps Bowdaar (the Wookiee) could potentially be involved, We'd get Ryloth and Kashyykkk added as planets since slave-trafficking keeps showing up there in other Star Wars content, and groups like the Evocii (the species who the Hutts enslaved) could be working for the Republic (perhaps they make a deal with the weakened Hutt Cartel to hire or draft some as mercenaries) and I also suggested including that group of revolting slaves from the monument on DK called the "Unchained" (they show up in a side-quest there), and they could be shown as people who climbed to the top due to merit and it could fit well with the new revised policies toward slaves. So there would be dueling narratives on both sides about how to deal with slavery, with most in the Republic and groups like the Evocii wanting abolition while the Empire tries to play up this thing where ppl who are strong enough or make themselves "useful" can "earn" their freedom and the Unchained become the "poster-children" of this. Vette's sister Teva could also make an appearance and reunite with Vette (if she lives) and perhaps that new Imp female twi'lek soldier could have a contingent role as well.

Edited December 18, 2022 by EAFSAMWISE

[Hrafnhildur]

Sorry OP, cannot answer your question, I never saved Vette, not even as a full LS twilek Jedi Consular and never will on any future characters. Vette has already been replaced by Major Anri - almost an identical background story, anyone has any doubts why?

Yes, the developers said they will not exclude any companion, but here's a little problem, there is nothing more that can be said about Vette, that character cannot be developed any further. Take a look at the story : she was a thief when you met her first time on Korriban, she is still a thief when you get reunited with her on Vandin, so nothing changed and I highly doubt it ever will .

Her mother, dead. Her sister, happy with her military boyfriend. So what else would you add? What angle would you use, an evil twin brother? ( oh wait, that's Sa'har..) 

By the way, I only speak in my name and express only my personal opinions. 

 

[Shayddow]

I've only run thru Ruhnuk with my main BH (LS female) so far, who was married to Torian, so obviously saved him. But as they introduce Akaavi into the story, they have probably just have her in the cut scenes along with the new Mando character (introduced in story but not a regular companion). In Ruhnuk for my BH there were altogether these 3 Mandos introduced that you have had dealings with - for "catching up" dialogue.

I'll have to see when I run my main SW thru the story (she saved Vette too, despite being Dark Side - basically because Vette had "grown" on her during their years together, so she saved someone she knew, rather than someone she just met.  I'll probably run her thru the expansion for Ruhnuk story next, out of my 8 "mains" (for each Origin story)

My alt LS SW (male) alt hasn't gone thru KOTFE yet, but he is married to Vette so when I run it for him, he will save her.

My (main) DS Smuggler is a Twillik, so he saved her as "one of his own". He made light side choice with Sareesh as well, choosing to imprison rather than kill - he saves his fellow Twilliks just because (G).  

My Light side (Main) Trooper saved Torian because he is a soldier, and she is (IC) sister to my main BH.

My LS (main) Jedi saved Vette because she is civilian, and IC wise didn't "know" she was sending Torian to his death, because she figured him to have a better chance of fighting his way out of the situation than Vette did.  But puts the blame for his death squarely where it belongs, on Vaylin.

[casirabit]

Spoiler

I ran one of my characters through that save Vette, and she doesn't show up and neither does Torian so it looks like Vette does not have a role in this new story.

 

[bluehufsa]

On 12/20/2022 at 1:33 AM, Shayddow said:

I've only run thru Ruhnuk with my main BH (LS female) so far, who was married to Torian, so obviously saved him. But as they introduce Akaavi into the story, they have probably just have her in the cut scenes along with the new Mando character (introduced in story but not a regular companion). In Ruhnuk for my BH there were altogether these 3 Mandos introduced that you have had dealings with - for "catching up" dialogue.

I'll have to see when I run my main SW thru the story (she saved Vette too, despite being Dark Side - basically because Vette had "grown" on her during their years together, so she saved someone she knew, rather than someone she just met.  I'll probably run her thru the expansion for Ruhnuk story next, out of my 8 "mains" (for each Origin story)

My alt LS SW (male) alt hasn't gone thru KOTFE yet, but he is married to Vette so when I run it for him, he will save her.

My (main) DS Smuggler is a Twillik, so he saved her as "one of his own". He made light side choice with Sareesh as well, choosing to imprison rather than kill - he saves his fellow Twilliks just because (G).  

My Light side (Main) Trooper saved Torian because he is a soldier, and she is (IC) sister to my main BH.

My LS (main) Jedi saved Vette because she is civilian, and IC wise didn't "know" she was sending Torian to his death, because she figured him to have a better chance of fighting his way out of the situation than Vette did.  But puts the blame for his death squarely where it belongs, on Vaylin.

All my characters, regardless of class, faction or alignment ( LS/DS) saved Torian, here's why:

DS Sith Warrior : he romanced Jaesa and couldn't give a damn about Vette

LS Inquisitor : she dislikes slaves who do nothing to improve their lives and search for trouble

Fem BH : she's married to Torian

Second fem BH, not married to anyone, took all the flirt options with Rass Ordo : because Torian is a fellow Mandalorian

Male trooper : he knows a soldier is more valuable than a thief

Fem Twilek Jedi Consular : same reason as the trooper

 

[SteveTheCynic]

19 minutes ago, bluehufsa said:

Male trooper : he knows a soldier is more valuable than a thief

Except when you need stuff stolen, or you need help breaking-and-entering without actually *breaking*.

[bluehufsa]

1 hour ago, SteveTheCynic said:

Except when you need stuff stolen, or you need help breaking-and-entering without actually *breaking*.

Yes, that's true, but my trooper doesn't think like that.

[RowanThursday]

Interesting, I went with the opposite option to you people both times on the two characters I've actually progressed that far. My Inquisitor, who I put through Eternal Throne back when it launched, I genuinely didn't know that it was going to be an either/or choice, although I suspected, from the telegraphy in-story. She, who was on a redemption character arc through Fallen Empire, had even at her most dark side points earlier always kept being fiercely protective of her crew as her one virtue, saved Vette first because Vette was vulnerable and seemed to her to be in the most danger, and responded to not being able to save Torian by attacking Vaylin in a manner of "Strike you down with all my hatred, you say? Ok, although you may have underestimated the amount of hatred you just unleashed, sweetie".

My Jedi Knight meanwhile, I the player obviously knew at that point that whoever I left was dead meat, though I tried to play the choice as if the character didn't, and she went with a simple decision of "Vette and Torian are both my friends, and both need help. However, Vette's a fairly young civilian, Torian is a professional soldier; my duty of care toward Vette is paramount over my duty of care toward Torian".

[SteveTheCynic]

@RowanThursday nice reasoning, although I've had mixed feelings about that choice.  Above all:

• Torian's reaction to the situation shows dignity and a calm acceptance of his fate.
• Vette's reaction lacks that dignity etc.

The malicious streak in my personality prefers someone who shows dignity over someone who grovels in the face of death.(1)

(1) I've looked Death in the eye, although it wasn't my death(2), obviously, and I'm not impressed by people who grovel in the face of it.(3)

(2) It was Mrs Cynic's.

(3) Mrs Cynic didn't.

[ksareas]

It makes me laugh how they ignore the Sith warrior and Vette, with almost childish arguments
-the sith warrior is the representation of darth malgus in history
-the story of vette and the sith warrior is the best written in terms of love relationships
-Torian is a Mandalorian who lives to fight and die gloriously, his death is more than justified for anyone, any commander with 2 functional neurons would trust the Mandalorian 100% to survive in adverse conditions and go to the aid of the weakest flank of the army .
-Vette is an important part of the Sith warrior's story, without her he would never have gotten his lightsaber, while Torian is the 3rd character to meet the bounty hunter, that is, a secondary character in his story and without any significance
-The first character of all classes is the most important for the character, the rest are secondary.
-If Torian dies, they send another representative of the Mandalorians, it is disposable, the alliance and the Mandalorians were not going to break for 1 death in battle, it would make her more powerful when seeing her brother fall in battle in such a glorious way
-Vette as a thief brought important resources to the alliance together with Gault, they could buy an entire army with the gold that was stolen from the Zakulan empire ship
-vette is as capable and strong as torian, remember that the sith warrior himself recognizes vette when they face the jedi master and the knight on tatooine, he himself tells her that they do not know how lethal she is and we are talking about the most powerful character canonically strong of the empire, that it recognizes you in that way is no small thing

In logistical terms Vette is more important than a Mandalorian and logistics in war is much more important and valuable than a single replaceable soldier like a Torian.

vette did much more for the alliance than torian, economical vette's theft with gault affirmed the alliance to stay at war for months if you only see firepower in a war let me tell you that you are newbies who have no idea of war and logistics
 

Vette and Gault are an important asset for the alliance, more than any individual warrior, the amount of credits they generated with their assault on the coffers of the Zakulan Empire caused 2 things, that the Zakulan Empire was affected financially and that the alliance was strengthened in extreme to have an economic backing

while torian was just a remarkable warrior mauling 20 or 50 armored droids, nothing great, instead vette and gault's coup probably caused the zakulan industry to descend on creating droids of thousands or millions.

so before you think torian is better than vette, look at the full spectrum of what a "war" is and means and everything behind

Edited February 16, 2023 by ksareas

[Hrafnhildur]

Still i would always chose Torian, because : 

- Vette is disposable too, we have a wide range of companions and contacts who can steal and sneak into enemy territory : Blizz and his crew, for example. 

- Vette is immature and childish, even if she's older than Torian and same age as Risha. Even if you treat her nicely, she still humiliates you in front of Baras's other apprentice in Lord Grathan's compound. On Iokath she makes stupid jokes aka "here tunnel tunnel" and " hey! here's another techno-thingie", even if she's like 30 + years old. Bottom line, she's still the same immature whining school girl and honestly i don't need someone like her in my crew. 

- At 21, Vette was begging to be captured by being a thief on Korriban, while Torian at 18 was , as Mandalore the Vindicated said, "among the most promising warriors" and took part to the expedition to hunt down Akure, the beast in the cavern on Dromund Kaas. So you see, even as a Jedi Knight ( my main) i prefer the honorable warrior instead of the infantile thief. 

- Torian is not "disposable", not all who romanced him are willing to jump into a homosexual relationship with Akaavi ( and i say this as a gay man)

- it is not fair to ask all Mandalorians who romanced Torian to just "go romance someone else"- Major Anri, Lana or Rivix, why not have a Mandalorian love interest?

- Vette is a liability, what if next time she's in trouble you have to sacrifice a way more important companion or ally? Would you do that? Cause i wouldn't. 

- Vette is generic and in terms of skills, she offers absolutely nothing new, Theron Shan, Raina Temple, Andronikos Revel, Fen Zeil have axactly the same skills in dps stance. 

 

 

[ksareas]

11 hours ago, Hrafnhildur said:

Still i would always chose Torian, because : 

- Vette is disposable too, we have a wide range of companions and contacts who can steal and sneak into enemy territory : Blizz and his crew, for example. 

- Vette is immature and childish, even if she's older than Torian and same age as Risha. Even if you treat her nicely, she still humiliates you in front of Baras's other apprentice in Lord Grathan's compound. On Iokath she makes stupid jokes aka "here tunnel tunnel" and " hey! here's another techno-thingie", even if she's like 30 + years old. Bottom line, she's still the same immature whining school girl and honestly i don't need someone like her in my crew. 

- At 21, Vette was begging to be captured by being a thief on Korriban, while Torian at 18 was , as Mandalore the Vindicated said, "among the most promising warriors" and took part to the expedition to hunt down Akure, the beast in the cavern on Dromund Kaas. So you see, even as a Jedi Knight ( my main) i prefer the honorable warrior instead of the infantile thief. 

- Torian is not "disposable", not all who romanced him are willing to jump into a homosexual relationship with Akaavi ( and i say this as a gay man)

- it is not fair to ask all Mandalorians who romanced Torian to just "go romance someone else"- Major Anri, Lana or Rivix, why not have a Mandalorian love interest?

- Vette is a liability, what if next time she's in trouble you have to sacrifice a way more important companion or ally? Would you do that? Cause i wouldn't. 

- Vette is generic and in terms of skills, she offers absolutely nothing new, Theron Shan, Raina Temple, Andronikos Revel, Fen Zeil have axactly the same skills in dps stance. 

 

 

Vette is not a burden, because torian was also in trouble at the same time, that is, if you call vette a burden, what remains for a Mandalorian used to fighting... and with more experience

[Hrafnhildur]

On 2/17/2023 at 9:01 PM, ksareas said:

Vette is not a burden, because torian was also in trouble at the same time, that is, if you call vette a burden, what remains for a Mandalorian used to fighting... and with more experience

I never said "burden", I said "liability". In war times, any civilian is a liability, especially when they are in a war zone or in a combat situation that requires the skills only a soldier possesses. 

This entire situation was handled very poorly because we should have never been in the situation of saving one/letting one die. I do not blame the developers, they tried their best.

 

[ksareas]

10 hours ago, Hrafnhildur said:

I never said "burden", I said "liability". In war times, any civilian is a liability, especially when they are in a war zone or in a combat situation that requires the skills only a soldier possesses. 

This entire situation was handled very poorly because we should have never been in the situation of saving one/letting one die. I do not blame the developers, they tried their best.

 

Yes, but in that case you only rely on the brute force of the alliance, since as I explained before the blow to Zakul's coffers, Vette and Gault were more decisive than an individual soldier, we are talking about that this robbery reduced the production of droids in thousands or millions, without a doubt the thief vette did more damage than torian in everything the alliance lasted
logistically vette is a more important asset than a mandalorian for the alliance

Edited February 25, 2023 by ksareas

[Hrafnhildur]

10 hours ago, ksareas said:

Yes, but in that case you only rely on the brute force of the alliance, since as I explained before the blow to Zakul's coffers, Vette and Gault were more decisive than an individual soldier, we are talking about that this robbery reduced the production of droids in thousands or millions, without a doubt the thief vette did more damage than torian in everything the alliance lasted
logistically vette is a more important asset than a mandalorian for the alliance

Nope. Sorry, but the money stolen from Gilded Star are nowhere said to be for droid production, they could have been as well for paying workers in Zakuul's factories, shops, waterworks, sewer maintenance and so on. 

Destroying the droid factory on Darvannis, now thats what i call damage, real damage! 

Tell me, what do you think hurts the enemy more? Stealing the money that can be used to buy a weapon, or destroying the weapon? 

No matter how you look at this, Vette is still disposable and replaceable, Gault could have used Blizz instead of her and get the job done. 

[Shayddow]

For me it depends on which character I'm playing. BHs save Torian, SWs save Vette.

[Hadsil]

I save Torian now because I don't want to deal with the saving Vette glitch. At the last mob before Vette, you or your Companion can aggro the bad guys surrounding Vette. They join the battle and you have to deal with them. Only with all enemies dead does the quest update to defeating the enemy surrounding Vette. However, you already defeated them because they were aggroed. Since they're already dead you cannot complete the quest. You have to restart the entire mission, do it again, and hope you don't aggro the bad guys around Vette the second time.

[Paulsutherland]

46 minutes ago, Hadsil said:

I save Torian now because I don't want to deal with the saving Vette glitch. At the last mob before Vette, you or your Companion can aggro the bad guys surrounding Vette. They join the battle and you have to deal with them. Only with all enemies dead does the quest update to defeating the enemy surrounding Vette. However, you already defeated them because they were aggroed. Since they're already dead you cannot complete the quest. You have to restart the entire mission, do it again, and hope you don't aggro the bad guys around Vette the second time.

Yeah! This is annoying. I've just skipped the last two chapters and gone straight to Ossus when that's happened. 

[Ardrossan]

They were both bland characters I didn't care about because there wasn't much content written for them in KOTFE/ET. If you're a SW or a BH then the choice was obvious, for all the other classes it was just a coin flip, and since the comps are all identical it was completely random for me: I saved Vette 4 times and Torian 4 times. JFC, just the thought of doing those expansions 8 times, what was I thinking!?

I always thought it was strange that they didn't pair an imp companion with a pub companion for that mission, but I guess because they didn't really write any good pub companions into KOTFE--who we didn't previously have the option of killing, like Jorgan. 

Another poster mentioned the Ashley/Kaidan choice. Imagine if bioware decided they didn't need to write any more content for those characters because players wouldn't get to see content from the killed character. It boggles the mind especially in this game where players make a whole bunch of alts. That decision to brick/fridge killed companions is probably the single dumbest thing the devs have ever done in this game imo.

But the Kaidan/Ashley choice is also a good example of how to make players care, because they were in your crew--suppose the Vaylin choice involved companions from each class' original crew? If they did it that way they would have had to change the structure of the expansions and alliance alerts (which would be good because that entire concept sucked) to ensure that you had the full crew come back before that moment. And then the choice would be a lot more tricky probably:

BH: Mako or Blizz[1]? 

JK: Kira or T7?

JC: Theran[2] or Nadia?

IA: Vector or Lokin?

Trooper: Elara or 4X?

SW: Vette or Jaesa?

SI: Ashara or Talos?

Smuggler: Risha or Guss?

These choices are just my idea of difficult decisions based on my personal feeling about their likeability, romance considerations, as well as gameplay stuff (SIs would be compelled to save Khem out of self preservation, and Qyzen would rather be dead than captured). If they did this then the obvious parallel would be to the Suicide Mission in ME2 because if you ran through with all eight classes you know you'd have to sacrifice 8 beloved companions, not just 1-2 blah randos you meet in a mediocre expansion. 

[1] Ignoring everything I said, if they had simply made the choice between Blizz and 4X, that on its own would have been a really tough decision. I think Blizz still wins at least 6/8 times but still. Plus that scene would just be so much more awesome in every way! Vaylin: "I have taken your jawa and killer warbot hostage and you have to choose one to save!"

[2] This isn't a difficult choice at all until you consider that Theran is just the meatbag placeholder and the choice is actually between Nadia and Holiday. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Ardrossan

[turbomagnus]

On 4/9/2023 at 3:16 AM, Ardrossan said:

They were both bland characters I didn't care about because there wasn't much content written for them in KOTFE/ET. If you're a SW or a BH then the choice was obvious, for all the other classes it was just a coin flip, and since the comps are all identical it was completely random for me: I saved Vette 4 times and Torian 4 times. JFC, just the thought of doing those expansions 8 times, what was I thinking!?

It's more an RP angle than anything, but there is one Republic class where the Vette/Torian choice can weigh - Smuggler. Who do you let die, one of Akaavi's fellow Mandalorians (even if from a different clan) or Risha's old friend and pseudo-sister?

 

One of the things to consider is that we look at this from a meta standpoint, as players with knowledge that Vaylin will kill whoever we don't save. Take that away, look at it simply as The Commander, what do you do? Save the (relatively) innocent thief and let the warrior have his glorious death in battle that will have his name remembered, or do you save the fighter who can contribute more to the war effort and simply write off the girl basically in over her lekku'd head? It's not a Light/Dark decision, it's not that simple a dichotomy, it's a decision based on the way The Commander (and to a degree the player themselves) thinks.

[Ardrossan]

2 minutes ago, turbomagnus said:

It's more an RP angle than anything, but there is one Republic class where the Vette/Torian choice can weigh - Smuggler. Who do you let die, one of Akaavi's fellow Mandalorians (even if from a different clan) or Risha's old friend and pseudo-sister?

iirc Vette and Risha have never yet met in-game. If they had, absolutely it would have been a much different decision for my smuggler at least. At this point I assume they're planning to just leave it as an easter egg. My headcanon is that it would have looked like this (skip down to halfway).

[turbomagnus]

3 minutes ago, Ardrossan said:

iirc Vette and Risha have never yet met in-game. If they had, absolutely it would have been a much different decision for my smuggler at least. At this point I assume they're planning to just leave it as an easter egg. My headcanon is that it would have looked like this (skip down to halfway).

Actually, both of their Companion stories mention the other. Risha's mentions Vette and wondering what happened to her after Nok disbanded his organisation and went into carbonite, while Vette herself tells the Warrior about how Nok's group rescued her and some other slaves and most of them joined up with him until he died, leading to her joining the group of Twi'lek thieves you meet as one of her missions.

(Kind of like Doc knowing Kalliyo, Qyzen having hunted with Braden and Mako at one time, etc. It's surprising how many of the various companions actually have crossed paths...)