I hate 0T 1H on DF SM

[NicoleMay]

I know, I know it's the norm. I know it can be done. I've done it many times. And it always is a complete mess. Sure we clear, but so many people will rush the group, pull without everyone (even the healer), just because they wanna do DF as fast as humanly possible. Half the bosses get cleared with half the party down.

I'd rather have at least 1T 1H. Or even 0T 2H. But 0T 1H? Nah. Screw that. I'm done signing up for those ops. They are always awful experiences for me personally.

I kinda want Bioware to buff some of the tank mechanics in SM ops. We really shouldn't be going tankless. I get it, you want more dps for faster clear. It's still annoying. Make the cleaves hit a bit harder, make the hands on 6 fingers Brontes hit harder. Just something to justify bringing a tank. Because 7D runs are just chaos and frankly, I'm sick of them being the norm.

I'm very sure I'm in the minority here. But I really hate groups that throw out gamer etiquette and have zero patience when forming. Y'all can do that without me from now on.

[DeannaVoyager]

I've only done those a few times myself, and mostly because nothing else is going on. Personally I don't care if the groups have a tank or not, but in the bigger picture it's not good for the game.

 

There is already shortage on competent tanks and healers. Being able to spam sm ops without those roles will make the shortage even worse. It's also affecting the gamer etiquette as you said, because in cases where tank is really needed (some MM FPs) there are none to be found. Some dps players have adopted a mentality to rush ahead and pull stuff ahead of the tank, forcing the tank and healer into damage control role and that takes the fun out of the game. I stopped pugging anything as a tank or healer when this trend started, because it felt like I was being used as a queue filler. Same applies to SM ops, and now with the DF farming new generation of players are learning those same bad habits. 

 

 

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Some dps players have adopted a mentality to rush ahead and pull stuff ahead of the tank, forcing the tank and healer into damage control role and that takes the fun out of the game. I stopped pugging anything as a tank or healer when this trend started

Well, somebody has to - I'm not waiting infront of a trashpack for the tank to pull just so he can lose threat on everything and I still have to tank it. Maybe healers and tanks wouldn't feel so much as queue fillers if they... you know: heal and tank?

@NicoleMayTo DF SM I cannot say anything, I don't see how this could ever become an unpleasant experience. Sorry to hear you had a bad time though

[Deaconik]

5 hours ago, NicoleMay said:

I know, I know it's the norm. I know it can be done. I've done it many times. And it always is a complete mess. Sure we clear, but so many people will rush the group, pull without everyone (even the healer), just because they wanna do DF as fast as humanly possible. Half the bosses get cleared with half the party down.

I'd rather have at least 1T 1H. Or even 0T 2H. But 0T 1H? Nah. Screw that. I'm done signing up for those ops. They are always awful experiences for me personally.

I kinda want Bioware to buff some of the tank mechanics in SM ops. We really shouldn't be going tankless. I get it, you want more dps for faster clear. It's still annoying. Make the cleaves hit a bit harder, make the hands on 6 fingers Brontes hit harder. Just something to justify bringing a tank. Because 7D runs are just chaos and frankly, I'm sick of them being the norm.

I'm very sure I'm in the minority here. But I really hate groups that throw out gamer etiquette and have zero patience when forming. Y'all can do that without me from now on.

Nah, won't change anything, the bosses die too quickly. Courtesy of the recent operation nerfs. If you can finish operation in 15 minutes it means there's not enough HP.

 

Also, fun fact. R-4 SM has tanking mechanics and people cry all over the forums to nerf Lady Dominique as she's the only SM boss which cannot be overhealed and bruteforced into submission.

[DeannaVoyager]

2 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Well, somebody has to - I'm not waiting infront of a trashpack for the tank to pull just so he can lose threat on everything and I still have to tank it. Maybe healers and tanks wouldn't feel so much as queue fillers if they... you know: heal and tank?

 

If you want to run ahead and play the content solo, you can play solo. When you go as part of a group, you are part of a group and you go along with the group respecting everyone else's role in the group instead of treating them as NPC. If you want to rush ahead of everyone else, you should queue as a tank and not as a dps, it's that simple. 

If you queue as dps, rush in first and think that it's okay, it seems to me you don't understand the roles in an MMO. In other words:  it's not the tanks and healers who don't know how to play. It's the dps who run ahead that doesn't know the basics of an MMO, they are in the wrong. 

 

 

 

 

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, DeannaVoyager said:

If you want to run ahead and play the content solo, you can play solo. When you go as part of a group, you are part of a group and you go along with the group respecting everyone else's role in the group instead of treating them as NPC. If you want to rush ahead of everyone else, you should queue as a tank and not as a dps, it's that simple. 

If you queue as dps, rush in first and think that it's okay, it seems to me you don't understand the roles in an MMO. In other words:  it's not the tanks and healers who don't know how to play. It's the dps who run ahead that doesn't know the basics of an MMO, they are in the wrong. 

I'd be tanking the adds either way? Not my first rodeo, if the tanks wants to pull he can - but if he isn't I'm going to do it, not like it changes much. If the tank doesn't like it then he can just pull the next group? I'm not waiting in front of every add group for him to loot 74 credits. 

Also no I can't do it solo, gives less rewards.

[Crystal_Mind]

OP, I sympathize. I have a list of everything I have seen go wrong in an SM DF Fleet PUG at Brontes without a Tank:

• No one kills fingers / no one stands on fingers
• No one turns hands away
• People stand in lightning
• Brontes cleaves the group / all dps stand in front of boss
• Kephess cleaves the group
• If I am not the healer, 50/50 on whether nanites is cleansed

Undermanning, no-tank comps, etc. can be fun when it's with people you know and you're all just killing time and hanging out. SM is boring if you don't spice it up a little. But Fleet PUGs are a different ballgame. At least half the players don't know what's going on, and the groups are too caught up in their momentum to explain it to them. They just know 'stick with the group and I'll get tech frags.' Without a tank, no one wants to take responsibility if they have aggro, and things spiral from there.

It's all rush-rush-rush, and the fact that 1-2 competent players can carry a group through all the problems doesn't help, because then folks don't learn anything, they just keep blundering through until they find themselves a PUG without those competent players, and then they rage in genchat because they don't understand why the group failed. SM ops at the moment are not conducive to a healthy raiding environment at the casual level. (Neither do they incentivize nor prepare new players to step into HM Operations.)

Edited October 18, 2022 by Crystal_Mind

[Ergecrs]

1 hour ago, Crystal_Mind said:

OP, I sympathize. I have a list of everything I have seen go wrong in an SM DF Fleet PUG at Brontes without a Tank:

• No one kills fingers / no one stands on fingers
• No one turns hands away
• People stand in lightning
• Brontes cleaves the group / all dps stand in front of boss
• Kephess cleaves the group
• If I am not the healer, 50/50 on whether nanites is cleansed

Undermanning, no-tank comps, etc. can be fun when it's with people you know and you're all just killing time and hanging out. SM is boring if you don't spice it up a little. But Fleet PUGs are a different ballgame. At least half the players don't know what's going on, and the groups are too caught up in their momentum to explain it to them. They just know 'stick with the group and I'll get tech frags.' Without a tank, no one wants to take responsibility if they have aggro, and things spiral from there.

It's all rush-rush-rush, and the fact that 1-2 competent players can carry a group through all the problems doesn't help, because then folks don't learn anything, they just keep blundering through until they find themselves a PUG without those competent players, and then they rage in genchat because they don't understand why the group failed. SM ops at the moment are not conducive to a healthy raiding environment at the casual level. (Neither do they incentivize nor prepare new players to step into HM Operations.)

I would argue the majority of people do not want to learn. 
 

pugs half the time have at least 2-3 players not out dpsing a tank when they are in the group. People don’t know simple rotations. People don’t listen when you do tell them. 
 

the majority of players in the game don’t care if they are good or not. Which is why sm got nerfed in the first place.  

[Crystal_Mind]

12 minutes ago, Ergecrs said:

...the majority of players in the game don’t care if they are good or not. Which is why sm got nerfed in the first place.  

And that just makes it worse, because then they don't have to learn. We've gotten stuck in a cycle of toxic laziness when it comes to casual raiding. People who know better don't PUG. People who might want to improve are either A.) turned off entirely by the SM PUG environment and never bother looking further because they decide all raids must be that level of boring, or B.) find themselves stuck in limbo because there's nothing in the game to challenge them except HM... and they're not yet ready for HM. (Again, they get bored and leave). Which leaves us with what the OP and I have both noticed in-game -- sheer misery.

SM Ops should be relatively painless, but they shouldn't be speedrun like this outside of a well-tuned group. All it does is reinforce bad habits in both players and the community at large.

[Ergecrs]

14 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

And that just makes it worse, because then they don't have to learn. We've gotten stuck in a cycle of toxic laziness when it comes to casual raiding. People who know better don't PUG. People who might want to improve are either A.) turned off entirely by the SM PUG environment and never bother looking further because they decide all raids must be that level of boring, or B.) find themselves stuck in limbo because there's nothing in the game to challenge them except HM... and they're not yet ready for HM. (Again, they get bored and leave). Which leaves us with what the OP and I have both noticed in-game -- sheer misery.

SM Ops should be relatively painless, but they shouldn't be speedrun like this outside of a well-tuned group. All it does is reinforce bad habits in both players and the community at large.

I do agree with this. Except that as someone that knows better than to pug. I do it often. I actually have a pug discord I help with. I have been teaching them some HM mechanics. Sunday I helped them work thru HM TFB. We ended up doing prog on 3rd boss but ended up killing it. 

[Crystal_Mind]

5 minutes ago, Ergecrs said:

I do agree with this. Except that as someone that knows better than to pug. I do it often. I actually have a pug discord I help with. I have been teaching them some HM mechanics. Sunday I helped them work thru HM TFB. We ended up doing prog on 3rd boss but ended up killing it. 

That's awesome! Congrats to the group.

Yes, I was a bit unclear and slightly exaggerated in that statement. Fleet PUGs advertised as Tech Frag runs are mostly what I had in mind, but even so I've found myself pugging SMs less and less as the months go on. It's just not enjoyable for me at this stage.

[Ergecrs]

6 minutes ago, Crystal_Mind said:

That's awesome! Congrats to the group.

Yes, I was a bit unclear and slightly exaggerated in that statement. Fleet PUGs advertised as Tech Frag runs are mostly what I had in mind, but even so I've found myself pugging SMs less and less as the months go on. It's just not enjoyable for me at this stage.

It isn’t fun. Sm are just faceroll.  

[DeannaVoyager]

18 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

I'd be tanking the adds either way? Not my first rodeo, if the tanks wants to pull he can - but if he isn't I'm going to do it, not like it changes much. If the tank doesn't like it then he can just pull the next group? I'm not waiting in front of every add group for him to loot 74 credits. 

Also no I can't do it solo, gives less rewards.

Tank grabbing their loot and delaying you for 1 second, oh the horror! 😱

 

That attitude is exactly what drives people away from group content.  We don't need that on top of tanks and healers being eliminated by BW. We need more people who want to do group content, not less. If you can't play as part of a group, don't use GF to find one. Play solo or make your own. If you want people to get better, let them do their own role and learn. 

 

 

 

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Tank grabbing their loot and delaying you for 1 second, oh the horror! 😱

See, I knew you would understand it.

[Ergecrs]

5 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Tank grabbing their loot and delaying you for 1 second, oh the horror! 😱

 

That attitude is exactly what drives people away from group content.  We don't need that on top of tanks and healers being eliminated by BW. We need more people who want to do group content, not less. If you can't play as part of a group, don't use GF to find one. Play solo or make your own. If you want people to get better, let them do their own role and learn. 

 

 

 

He isn’t implying the tank grabbing their loot is bad. He is saying the tank cannot hold aggro which is 95% of the case. Especially with geared dps helping others in sm or vm. They are not used to having to know their rotation to hold aggro, or having to guard dps because half the pop still thinks healers should be guarded no matter what. 

[DeannaVoyager]

18 hours ago, Ergecrs said:

He isn’t implying the tank grabbing their loot is bad. He is saying the tank cannot hold aggro which is 95% of the case. Especially with geared dps helping others in sm or vm. They are not used to having to know their rotation to hold aggro, or having to guard dps because half the pop still thinks healers should be guarded no matter what. 

I think that's exactly what he was implying, but he commented on tank being able to hold aggro too. Everyone has seen some really bad tanking in fps, but the thing is, they will never learn if they are not allowed to learn.

Same goes for healers. There's always some jerk complaining in vet fps if someone joins as healer. I'd rather have the healer start practising in vet fp than something harder. That's what they are for. It can be very frustrating experience when you finally get a MM FP pop and you get a healer who never practised on easier content. Now add the tank who doesn't know how to tank, because they didn't get to practise their role, because a dps wanted to shove them aside from their role, and you have a recipe for a really unpleasant MM FP, or any other harder content with specific role requirement. 

 

 

 

 

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, DeannaVoyager said:

I think that's exactly what he was implying, but he commented on tank being able to hold aggro too. Everyone has seen some really bad tanking in fps, but the thing is, they will never learn if they are not allowed to learn.

Same goes for healers. There's always some jerk complaining in vet fps if someone joins as healer. I'd rather have the healer start practising in vet fp than something harder. That's what they are for. It can be very frustrating experience when you finally get a MM FP pop and you get a healer who never practised on easier content. Now add the tank who doesn't know how to tank, because they didn't get to practise their role, because a dps wanted to shove them aside from their role, and you have a recipe for a really unpleasant MM FP, or any other harder content with specific role requirement.

Wait a sec, you thought I was doing that in veteran FPs? I was thinking about a MM FP, ofc I'm pulling in veteran FPs everything is a one hit anyway. I was thinking about MM Tanks, its also impossible to tank mm fps because of the paid actors that call themselves DPS.

[Brittaany_Banks]

On 10/18/2022 at 5:35 AM, ZUHFB said:

Well, somebody has to - I'm not waiting infront of a trashpack for the tank to pull just so he can lose threat on everything and I still have to tank it. Maybe healers and tanks wouldn't feel so much as queue fillers if they... you know: heal and tank?

@NicoleMayTo DF SM I cannot say anything, I don't see how this could ever become an unpleasant experience. Sorry to hear you had a bad time though

Then as a healer at least in a MMFP I'm voting to kick you. You are a dps and hyper expendable. Your job can be done by a companion. Get down off your high horse.

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, Brittaany_Banks said:

Then as a healer at least in a MMFP I'm voting to kick you. You are a dps and hyper expendable. Your job can be done by a companion. Get down off your high horse.

I actually did find a middleground, I'm now just queueing tank as vengeance and just tanking on DPS. Holding aggro isn't an issue and nothing hurts soooo, that works. Even better since I have low queue time and we get 3DPS which means we have the DPS of ~1.7 good DPS players, it's almost playable now.