Fix Inflation PLEASE

[DWho]

Just now, septru said:

6 pages later and people still make the most ridiculous comments that show they really have no clue what they're talking about. 

Really, Oh master, what is the source of "inflation" then

[MortenJessen]

15 minutes ago, septru said:

6 pages later and people still make the most ridiculous comments that show they really have no clue what they're talking about. 

He is absolutely right. From an economists view, his idea of stopping flipping by making it bound, is as good as any. And it would work. Making sure people only buys to own use instead of speculating in value, makes sure that cartel coins cant be exchanged in to stupid amounts of credits. That way the influx of credits into the system is stopped and the inflation is at least under control, by not being able to inflate further. Mostly. There are other problems, but that removes the worst of them.

 

Bah, screw it, I can not make quoting 2 posts work. I would have had DWho's post quoted also, for being absolutely spot on, but I seem to screw it up. Sorry DWho.

Edited November 27, 2022 by MortenJessen
Technical issues

[Thepyrethatburns]

Oh, good.  Another one of these topics.

So, here are two alternatives.

1) Give people things they want for credits.  Example:  For the Seeds/Shroud mission, give them a CSR for 100K credits.  For Ops, allow them to do a watered down story Op with two CSRs for 10 Mil.  I guarantee you that you would get a lot of takers on that.  Other credit sinks can be provided for minimal effort.  This is the "Carrot".

2) However, since this board is addicted to "Stick" solutions, here is a "Stick" solution.

a) Remove the credit cap.
b) Limit Preferred to a 6 month timeline.  To restart Preferred status, one has to either sub for a month or buy 450 Cartel Coins.
c) Institute a tax scheme for GTN/Trades that rewards the people who are actually keeping the lights on. 
10% for subs.
20% for Preferred
40% for Free.

[Ominovin]

3 hours ago, MortenJessen said:

1)      Demand for money sinks. Return costs for training of skills and change of abilities. Make unlocks cost small amounts of credits not cartel coins (and I mean small amounts, to also allow f2p and new players to have those options). And I DON’T mean unlocks of costumes, weapons, pets, mounts or the like from collections, I mean game mechanisms. See 6.

Advocating training costs is a pretty clear indication that you really have no idea what you are talking about, as this would be completely irrelevant to the 'rich' and/or fully leveled players but potentially devastating to new players:  I can't be the only one who remembers those early days when you probably had to grind for a while before you'd have enough cash for the higher speeder ranks (Slicers were probably okay, but non-slicers often didn't have the cash right away).

Credit sinks have to be desirable (but not so desirable that they encourage credit buying) but not mandatory (which makes them more of a 'flat tax').

Honestly, it is far too late for a credit sink to have any real impact.

 

On the subject of Cartel Coins, I do need to make one thing clear:

Cartel Coin sales are what keep this game afloat:  Cut into these sales significantly, and they'll have to shut down the game as they are not running a charity here.

People on the forums often seem to not understand a very simple difference of perspective regarding the game:

• Players play the game to have fun.
• Bioware created/runs the game to put food on the table and keep a roof overhead and the lights on.

While the first perspective is important, the second is absolutely essential to understand:  If the game isn't sufficiently profitable, 'but the players are having fun' isn't going to save it from the axe (unhappy customers mean you have work to do, while unhappy investors probably mean you are out of work entirely)...

3 hours ago, MortenJessen said:

2)      Slow down the leveling rate (e.g. cut exp gains with a factor 10 or 12 (back to the good old 1.0 to 4.0 days). And return the credit gain from completing missions to same level. Why? To make credits come at a slow natural way through effort. This also happens to give players a reason to play the entire game and all missions, so win/win for BW. Players, who make credits this way, tend to be more selective on how and on what they spend them. That’s actually good for the economy.

Slow leveling generally tends to discourage players:  When leveling is a long haul, you'll find players reluctant to roll alts because it will take so long to get them to 'end game.'

3 hours ago, MortenJessen said:

3)      Tax. Most of the ideas I have read in this thread is downright useless when it comes to taxing, and just shows that the players are more interested in not cutting into their own income. Really? The tax on GTN needs to be divided into 3 levels, depending on the amount of money an item is put up for. Level 1 = 30 % for less than 100 million. Level 2 = 40% for between 100 million and 500 million. Level 3 = 50 for above 500 million. Those tax levels are about the only way to combat the pricing of valueless pixels so high that even real world central banks would sweat. An added benefit of this is that those who plays the GTN will not be able to do so with out losing money. Thats good for economy, cutting down speculation.

Yeah, taxes that high should bring any semblance of a player economy to a screeching halt...which I guess would end the inflation issue???

4 hours ago, MortenJessen said:

4)      Remove the option to trade player to player, and the option of mailing credits, it has the added benefit of killing off gold sellers. That happens to both benefit BW and the in-game economy.

Again, I guess "no economy = no inflation" is technically a valid economic theory...

And I would like to point out that 'gold sellers' pay subscription fees to some degree, so it really doesn't benefit Bioware to drive them out...

4 hours ago, MortenJessen said:

5)      Make crafting a thing again. And put real credit value on ALL special crafting mats, and stop gating them behind content. That way, value can be calculated. Good for economy.

Crafting was never a thing.

Seriously, they even made it clear pre-launch that crafting was never going to be 'required' for anything, which technically was a lie considering Artifice originally was the only reliable source for color crystals, but they corrected that issue when they went 'free to play' after a year or so.

They really wanted to avoid the 'all cloth armor caster characters must take the tailoring skill if they want to be taken seriously in endgame' issue that WoW had, and I think they mostly succeeded here.

4 hours ago, MortenJessen said:

6)      And lastly. FIX EXCHANGE RATES. Make fixed values of items, services (like GTN slots) conveniences (like character slots, species, and more)  and cosmetics that can be unlocked, either after being bought directly from CM or GTN, have a related credit value that rises automatically depending on the amount of credits you have in total on your legacy. 

Again, offering unlocks and the like for credits rather than Cartel Coins will probably cut into the game's revenue, which might very well be fatal.

[MortenJessen]

I am not going to pick that post apart to quote it. It is clear that you missed the target by miles. But it also makes it quite clear that people either dont understand what inflation is, or (most likely) they dont have any real interest in dealing with it. I take it that those who are against it are those rich players who stands to lose value (but not credits). Because you ALL seem to not understand economic mechanics. Or you wont, just for being able to argue your "cause". Limiting things are not the same as destroying things. Dealing a heavy blow to prices over 1 billion is NOT destroying economy. It limits the value to fixed amounts of max profit. That people have perceived values in their heads about what things are worth, based on the amounts of credits they see in circulation, does not make it right. Halts as you all call bad, are not halts. It is slowing down, while the economy settles. That is not the same as a crash, it just runs slower. 

Oh, and I was around when 20 mil was a very big thing, and I made it by selling modable belts and bracers on the gtn... for 10-15k a piece, back when that was a lot, so I know crafting was a thing once.

 

Edit: Oh, and about cutting into the games revenue: The brutal answer is, this bad inflation is partly what prevents this game from becoming a just somewhat decent place for NEW players. 

Edited November 27, 2022 by MortenJessen

[RikuvonDrake]

the inflation is just a thing that really affects cosmetic items, if you want them you can just buy them from the cartel market with cartel coins, general items that players need don't cost that much, its the stuff players wants that cost a fair bit

no need to fix inflation since it's only affecting cosmetics

[illgot]

9 hours ago, RikuvonDrake said:

the inflation is just a thing that really affects cosmetic items, if you want them you can just buy them from the cartel market with cartel coins, general items that players need don't cost that much, its the stuff players wants that cost a fair bit

no need to fix inflation since it's only affecting cosmetics

inflation affects any player to player sales, this includes any crafted items like Dark Projects, augments, a few tacticals, etc. I sell a few billion in crafting resources in a single night, it's honestly why I never sell CM items for credits anymore.

Edited November 27, 2022 by illgot

[Screaming_Ziva]

13 hours ago, MortenJessen said:

He is absolutely right. From an economists view, his idea of stopping flipping by making it bound, is as good as any. And it would work. Making sure people only buys to own use instead of speculating in value, makes sure that cartel coins cant be exchanged in to stupid amounts of credits. That way the influx of credits into the system is stopped and the inflation is at least under control, by not being able to inflate further. Mostly. There are other problems, but that removes the worst of them.

Buying something from the CM and selling it on the GTN or buying off the GTN and speculating on it does not cause an influx of credits in the game.  The credits are already in the game, they are just being redistributed.

[jedimasterjac]

37 minutes ago, Screaming_Ziva said:

The credits are already in the game, they are just being redistributed.

This is a really important point. Player trades don’t generate the credits — they don’t cause inflation. Limiting player trades doesn’t reduce the supply of credits in the economy. 

[septru]

14 hours ago, DWho said:

Really, Oh master, what is the source of "inflation" then

...

1 hour ago, Screaming_Ziva said:

Buying something from the CM and selling it on the GTN or buying off the GTN and speculating on it does not cause an influx of credits in the game.  The credits are already in the game, they are just being redistributed.

...and

22 minutes ago, jedimasterjac said:

This is a really important point. Player trades don’t generate the credits — they don’t cause inflation. Limiting player trades doesn’t reduce the supply of credits in the economy. 

...or any other post in this now 7 page long thread. 

[MortenJessen]

1 hour ago, Screaming_Ziva said:

Buying something from the CM and selling it on the GTN or buying off the GTN and speculating on it does not cause an influx of credits in the game.  The credits are already in the game, they are just being redistributed.

 

29 minutes ago, jedimasterjac said:

This is a really important point. Player trades don’t generate the credits — they don’t cause inflation. Limiting player trades doesn’t reduce the supply of credits in the economy. 

Actually no. While some of the credits are "just being redistributed", most of the credits in circulation came from not so fine methods. And while BW did put in some effort to stop those methods, and punish those who did it, the damage had been done, and it was by and large never undone. The credits remains in the system. That is one of the causes. Another cause is directly illegal, but it still happens so frequently that it accounts for a noticeable percentage of the credit influx. Then come how the amount of credits generated trough normal, legal gameplay. That, while large, simply can not compare with the hacked accounts, the bots, the in-game-system scams, and the likes, to generate flux. 

Redistributed is what ultimately happens to all wealth. HOW is what matters, and the means that is used. And the cartel speculation by making coins into credits trough either gtn or direct sales is the driving force in the inflation. Like it or not. Along came the "Scam BW for coins" friend scam that BW was way too slow to shut down. Some prominent members of the community bragged that they got more than 100k cartel coins each month by playing the system. And all those coins was used on the cartel market. Some for making space barbies, but even if that accounts for 75%, each of these players could still pour 25k worth of cartel merchandise into the market. Now, take a deep breath and tell me how that alone did not cause problems, then multiply it by the demand from some players to get credits to buy those things, and you get the picture. 

As I said originally, most people are blind to what inflation is, or they deny it on purpose so they can keep making credits. Many will be angry if BW actually puts in some effort to get the economy under control. Why? Because for some reason pixel numbers has become their fix. Thats all there is to it. 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by MortenJessen

[Jdast]

43 minutes ago, MortenJessen said:

Actually no. While some of the credits are "just being redistributed", most of the credits in circulation came from not so fine methods. 

Redistributed is what ultimately happens to all wealth. HOW is what matters, and the means that is used. And the cartel speculation by making coins into credits trough either gtn or direct sales is the driving force in the inflation.

 

This is a very weak attempt to backtrack. You should stop with snarky comments "like Economy 1-0-1" and criticizing the player base for failing to understand economics for a pretty basic reason: Economics on planet Earth don't apply well to online PC games for some fundamental reasons (e.g., lack of barriers to entry).

I understand economics quite well, thank you. However, your draconian solutions as others have suggested may well stop inflation, but the primary reason is because it would destroy the game. Your point about "how" those credits were generated is immaterial at this point b/c they are already in game and Bioware has zero incentive, much less ability to rein in those credits. Bluntly put, the genie is out of the bottle.

More importantly, as Ominovon points out (correctly, in my view), the Cartel Market is what keeps this game afloat. You are free to disagree with that point, and you can contend that your solutions are only limiting. We are free to disagree, which I do. Limiting the amount of money Bioware makes is almost certain to doom the game at this point.

You don't cure a headache by lopping off a chunk of the head. Some people want the shiniest items and some want the best augments right away. If the credits they used to purchase those items were 'redistributed' to others through sales on the GTN or via player-to-player trade, so be it. The fact that some of those credits for individual players were generated through nefarious means, as odious as that may be, is immaterial.

Your solutions punish long-term players, including and notably, those like me who earned those credits through legitimate means.

<<Waves Hutt hand and uses the Force to say: You are not the economist you think you are.>>

Dasty

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Jdast
Spelling error!

[MortenJessen]

I have never said that the cartel sales is not what keeps up this games economy running (although I really doubt that coin sales running BWs SWTOR economy real world, because I doubt it is that large, due to scams and free coins aplenty) but I doubt you understand economics, snarky one. I did spend quite a few years studying economy at university. I think I am quite the economist, thank you (insert snaky remark).

Now, personal attacks aside, controlling inflation is the first step to getting it down. And that, to some degree, always causes some backlash. The main problem here seems to be that most players have developed an attitude towards what was and what is, instead of what is to come. And you call my means draconian. Yes, but that is about the only way to create results. No long term plan will or can fix problems in this game, because as you so eloquently put it, the genie is out of the bottle and BW can not rein it in. So now, all you have left is to hope that it is a benevolent and not a literal genie, or worse, a jackass genie. Because like it or not, getting the inflation under control WILL cause anger from the player base, because no matter what, the means used will hamper some one.

And handling the economy in a game, like it was a real world economy, most certainly still is about control of the influx of credits from other sources. Illegal, legal, scam or other methods. Reining in the credit amount in circulation HAS to be done. That is the only way to drive down prices, and get the economy back to normal.

Waves hutt hand; you are not as clever as you think you are, oh snarky one

Edit; by the by, my opinions are based on a professional analysis, you seem to be holding it as an attitude, just like what you your self use. Please be cautious with that. There is a big difference. My attitude differs from my opinion... 

Edited November 27, 2022 by MortenJessen
By the by

[DWho]

1 hour ago, septru said:

...

...and

...or any other post in this now 7 page long thread. 

100% incorrect. no one gets rich just playing the game (and earning credits in game does not cause inflation, there just aren't enough sources for any single player). I've played the game for 10 years and run over 10,000 heroics (supposedly the best source of credits in the game). Before 7.0 alone I turned in over 4,000 Alliance crates and I have no where near a billion credits much less 10s of billion credits. No player, playing the game can make enough credits to cause inflation. Credit exploits and aggregation of credits through credit sellers (and the players that continue to sell their credits to credit sellers for real cash) are the problem. Limits on flipping items on the GTN would most certainly reign in prices, because no one could hoard items waiting for a higher price.

Also, your post does not address what causes inflation, only what you think doesn't

Edited November 27, 2022 by DWho

[Krymac]

I posted  a fix to inflation on Suggestion box a while ago but no one will listen. 

Make some Cartel Market items untradable (like hypercrates, master datacrons, Acount unlocks etc) so you can still keep your base of people spending $$$ on the game. Then make a Credit <-> Cartel Coin transfer NPC, available only to subscribers. Yeah they may loose a little income from cartel coin sales, but would balance out with gained subscriptions and increased player base from people who want to use the NPC. 

[DWho]

54 minutes ago, Jdast said:

--- Your point about "how" those credits were generated is immaterial at this point b/c they are already in game and Bioware has zero incentive, much less ability to rein in those credits. Bluntly put, the genie is out of the bottle. --- Dasty

 

I snipped out the part discussing the bit that isn't relevant to what I am going to say to just address this issue.

How the credits got in the game in the first place is material because it is how they continue to get into the game (credit sellers being the primary issue). The high GTN prices drive people to credit sellers (like there are discords for sale raids, and raids in general, there are discords for credit sellers - they have adapted to Biowares changes designed to limit them). Credits sellers have been the bane of this game forever and undercut the values of everything in the game (which is why prices go up, people trying to put some sort of artificial value on something to "prove" they are better than those who don't have it). Perhaps its not so much inflation, in the real world sense of the term, but rather run away prices (not everything on the GTN sells for insane prices) resulting from players desires to have something "no one" else has the easiest way possible. If Bioware were to lower the desirability of some items it would drive down the prices, which is really what is being talked about by controlling inflation. You could cut "inflation" to 0 and the prices would be the same. Only an increase in supply or reduction in desirability will bring prices down. No one is going to sit on a hundred hypercrates hoping they can turn a profit, if prices don't keep going up.

[septru]

1 hour ago, Jdast said:

You don't cure a headache by lopping off a chunk of the head.

if only bioware listened to this advice when it came to ranked pvp

[DWho]

27 minutes ago, septru said:

if only bioware listened to this advice when it came to ranked pvp

You see, there is something we can agree on. Although, I am skeptical that the changes needed to bring Ranked back into the game as something other than a niche population would have been any more palatable to Ranked players, but that should have been tried first.

[FlatTax]

The answer:

Demonetize the in-game economy and build mechanics worth subscribing for.

Edited November 27, 2022 by FlatTax

[illgot]

36 minutes ago, FlatTax said:

The answer:

Demonetize the in-game economy and build mechanics worth subscribing for.

subscriptions alone haven't worked for MMO in years.

[YaanaOhtar]

 

2 hours ago, MortenJessen said:

I have never said that the cartel sales is not what keeps up this games economy running (although I really doubt that coin sales running BWs SWTOR economy real world, because I doubt it is that large, due to scams and free coins aplenty) but I doubt you understand economics, snarky one. I did spend quite a few years studying economy at university. I think I am quite the economist, thank you (insert snaky remark).

Now, personal attacks aside, controlling inflation is the first step to getting it down. And that, to some degree, always causes some backlash. The main problem here seems to be that most players have developed an attitude towards what was and what is, instead of what is to come. And you call my means draconian. Yes, but that is about the only way to create results. No long term plan will or can fix problems in this game, because as you so eloquently put it, the genie is out of the bottle and BW can not rein it in. So now, all you have left is to hope that it is a benevolent and not a literal genie, or worse, a jackass genie. Because like it or not, getting the inflation under control WILL cause anger from the player base, because no matter what, the means used will hamper some one.

And handling the economy in a game, like it was a real world economy, most certainly still is about control of the influx of credits from other sources. Illegal, legal, scam or other methods. Reining in the credit amount in circulation HAS to be done. That is the only way to drive down prices, and get the economy back to normal.

Waves hutt hand; you are not as clever as you think you are, oh snarky one

Edit; by the by, my opinions are based on a professional analysis, you seem to be holding it as an attitude, just like what you your self use. Please be cautious with that. There is a big difference. My attitude differs from my opinion... 

 

Basically, the level of inflation in Swtor is at critical level, and there is no soft landing anymore. The dev have to use drastic measure to actually lower the inflation rate, just as real world right now. New player can't not join the economy that every single item cost hundreds of millions. However, I wonder if your method would actually work ? Similar to the real world right now, if you raising the "tax" rate too high, people will just hold on to their credit and cause stagflation. There must be new service and intensive for people to spend their credit - I am thinking of allow player to pay sub for credit ? how about few billion for a month ?

[Jdast]

2 hours ago, DWho said:

If Bioware were to lower the desirability of some items it would drive down the prices, which is really what is being talked about by controlling inflation.

I agree with your loathing of credit sellers (and buyers), but this issue is ubiquitous across all MMORPGs. It's like playing whack-a-mole. The best solutions I've seen are to make non-cosmetic items Legacy bound. As Riku points out (correctly, in my view) SWTOR has done a pretty decent job with this, albeit not perfect (as Illgot also correctly points out); e.g, augments and to a lesser extent crafting mats.

But this statement I quoted confuses me (and you rarely confuse me). What possible incentive would Bioware have to lower the desirability of items? There would still be at least some high-end items that players, both buyers and sellers, would gravitate towards.

Bottom line: The solutions you (and that other guy who thinks none of us understand economics, taken Econ 101, or even courses at the graduate school level😉) propose would alienate at least some portion of the player base. I understand your frustration, but your solutions would cause me to insta-quit. I doubt I'm alone.

Dasty

Edited November 27, 2022 by Jdast
Clarity

[Jdast]

11 minutes ago, YaanaOhtar said:

Basically, the level of inflation in Swtor is at critical level, and there is no soft landing anymore. The dev have to use drastic measure to actually lower the inflation rate, just as real world right now. New player can't not join the economy that every single item cost hundreds of millions. However, I wonder if your method would actually work ? Similar to the real world right now, if you raising the "tax" rate too high, people will just hold on to their credit and cause stagflation. There must be new service and intensive for people to spend their credit - I am thinking of allow player to pay sub for credit ? how about few billion for a month ?

This is incorrect for a very simple reason and why I chastized a different poster for not understanding 'barriers to entry'.

Every single non-cosmetic item available on the GTN is accessible through simply playing the game. This includes crafting materials and augments. 

In other words, new players do not have to participate in the GTN or player-to-player trade. If they choose to do so, they can earn credits over the long-term just like many of us did. New players do not need the shiniest / coolest mount. They want the shiniest / coolest mount. I started FFXIV last Spring. I don't have the fanciest items in that game, nor should I.

Every solution I've seen to curb inflation does more harm than good. Obviously, you and others disagree. But to say there are 'barriers to entry' is simply false -- empirically so.

Dasty

[DWho]

7 minutes ago, Jdast said:

I agree with your loathing of credit sellers (and buyers), but this issue is ubiquitous across all MMORPGs. It's like playing whack-a-mole. The best solutions I've seen are to make non-cosmetic items Legacy bound. As Riku points out (correctly, in my view) SWTOR has done a pretty decent job with this, albeit not perfect (as Illgot also correctly points out) ; e.g, augments and to a lesser extent crafting mats.

But this statement I quoted confuses me (and you rarely confuse me). What possible incentive would Bioware have to lower the desirability of items? There would still be at least some high-end items that players, both buyers and sellers, would gravitate towards.

Bottom line: The solutions you (and that other guy who thinks none of us understand economics, taken Econ 101, or even courses at the graduate school level😉) propose would alienate at least some portion of the player base. I understand your frustration, but your solutions would cause me to insta-quit. I doubt I'm alone.

Dasty

Desireability is the wrong word. What I mean is that there needs to be something done to lower the incentive to buy up everything on the GTN and then hold it for months or trade it back and forth with the price going up each time. That was why I suggested having items become legacy bound once they are purchased from the GTN or traded from another player. That way you could still convert them to credits but there would be no incentive for one player to buy up everything listed on the GTN. I think this is the least onerous way to bring prices under control. A non-refundable listing fee would also keep people from listing items for outrageous prices in the hope it might one day sell. That suggestion is more onerous and it's not the best solution. All in all, trades need to be forced back onto the GTN so that the "sales tax" credit sink actually works. It's too easy right now to get around that sink and adding a "tax" to player trades is problematic.

[MortenJessen]

Dasty, if you are as pleasant, charming and mature in-game as you are here, I doubt you will be missed...

Now, I do not take other mmos into account. What problems they have, although related, does not affect SWTOR directly. The point is not, and never was, what players "need". It always has been about what they "want". And that is what drives players, even new ones. They see shiny, they want shiny. They see the price, and concludes 2 things; 1) I can not afford it and never will at this rate, because once I get those 2 billion, the shiny costs 4. And 2) Thats not funny, so I dont want to play. Thats bad. The sad third option is that they buy credits from gold sellers. Thats even worse. 

One HAS to get the rampant values under control.

Oh, and you, and others, keep accusing me of taking away players credits... please show me where I ever wrote that... All I ever wrote was to keep the amounts they accumulate in the future under control...

Edited November 27, 2022 by MortenJessen