Combat Inflation by Eliminating Sales Runs

[Khaleijo]

This thread was pretty ridiculous at the beginning but this running in circles for the last few pages and turning it in the elitist vs casual and sale raids source of all evil is topping that.

 

Inflation is a problem, but sales runs, no matter if people would like to ban them or not (I don't think that is really possible), are not the cause. If anything they or rather their prices are a symptom of way too many credits being accumulated in the game.

Except for being in my eyes a stupid concept in the first place, sale runs cost billions just like platinum cartel market items cost billions, because there are players that pay these sums and do have them without necessarily having bought credits from illegitimate sources. There are people who do, but there are also quite a lot honest billionaires in the game.

 

The game is running for ten years now and while many players left over the years there are also a die hard core player base that did not and have ten years of quest rewards, trading on GTN and stuff in their bags and bank vaults.

While there also have been exploits and of course bots are running around too, don't underestimate what amount of credits the easy conquest in 6.x and parts of 5.x generated either, both from the included credit reward for each small conquest task as well as the weekly rewards. Those small sums constantly and the xxxk credit tokens really added up if you did conquests with many different characters while being in guilds. People in this forum stating they'd bring 69 characters or even more through that every week... that is a ton of credit generation while at the same time there weren't any real credits sinks in the game for a very long time (and there still aren't any big ones, except for maybe the Night life event right now).

These credits are now within the game and are traded back and forth between players even without the added credit-seller input. The GTN fee takes a bit away but not that much in the end since even with heavily nerfed credit rewards since 7.0, there are still very few credit costs to every day playing. Except for people wiping their a.. off in PvP or PvE all in all, most players will have a net gain from a pure playing point of view.

Sure if you want decorations, style armours and the like that costs a lot of credits, but just playing the game, even with aug kit, slots and the likes, if you bother to craft what you can yourself, you easily gain more through quest rewards than you pay for every day costs. You pretty much always make a net plus and thus actually add to the inflation too.

If you then bother to join the market for materials or even sell legitimately bought cartel stuff your credit accounts will rise and rise, although that is rather a redistribution than a generation of credits.

 

Now back to sale runs:

The classic sale run for end-boss achievements, titles or Brontes wings worked that way that a group would prepare the ID, the buyer joins for last boss and is carried through and gets the special loot or title. These people are very easy to identify, no normally progressing player has either only the end-boss achievement or got all of them in a short time frame of a few hours, or end-boss before anything else. Just like you can see if someone got those achievements by over-levelling everything in 3.0. All the achievements have timestamps, knowing what to look for, buy-in raiders are easily recognised. Not saying that all of them are bad players, some are actually good enough to play on NIM level (not always is/was it possible to 7-man all bosses, so the player has/had to be good enough to at least not die and not kill the others with mechanics) and just don't have the chance for a regular group due to time restrictions server they are/were on or what ever, others are not really interested in raiding at all and just want a specific title or mount for personal reasons, though of course there are also those who are there for the bragging rights. Though again, if you know what to look for you'll know them by the timings of their achievements and can avoid them.

Fact is the NIM Crystals made carrying more easy on top of the occasional over gearing phases and the general difficulty level of NIM at times being easier than in other expansion cycles. I'm mainly a HC level raider so the times we went in to NIM were usually when that was made significantly easier either by over gearing or actual nerfs. For NIM at their release level my group is not good enough or simply does not want to put in the necessary effort to reach that level, so in general we have fun in HC difficulty. Using crystals would have gone against our understanding of why we do raids, so we never bothered with those either.

As I see it without ever having participated in any, neither as seller nor buyer but knowing people who did sale runs back in 4.x and 5.x , 7.0 made sale runs actually more, well, not difficult maybe, but stupid.

The Crystals were taken out with 7.0 now and before the 7.1 nerf of the operations, I'm pretty sure there were not as many groups that were actually able to carry a true dead weight as there were before, so my estimation is that sale runs declined except for maybe the best groups that were still able to carry and thus of course increasing their prices due to less competition. Of course one could also say the demand increased since due to the higher difficulty and the missing crystals now fewer raiding groups were able to play for what they want themselves.

At the same time except for wanting something like 100% achievements in everything, titles or mounts there have been less and less reasons to buy a sale raid for a long time now, because that gear level doesn't matter anywhere else than raids these days. PVP is capped and you don't need NIM Loot to be competitive since 6.0, yes it's not perfect and partly bugged, but wearing 340 gear actually has a negative impact on stats as far as I read in the PVP section of this forum. PVE outside of operations is also level-capped in almost all places. So you gain next to anything from this miracle top gear other than bragging rights and even those are questionable if your achievements clearly tell you have not earned them by actually playing and wiping for them.

So really serious question, why would anyone even pay these ridiculous amounts of credits, crates or whatever for something (the gear) that has next to no use and also will be rendered null with the next update or the one after anyway?

A title or mount I didn't earn by acquiring 'fairly' by playing myself wouldn't be worth it in my eyes either, but those at least stay in some way, but current max gear? Once the crafting update comes, other new stuff, R4 NIM; or one day 8.0 any current gear is going to become trash that will be deconstructed or vended. It just makes no sense to buy an overpriced sale raid for that. Especially if you aren't even interested in operations in the first place, because that gear has pretty much no effect anywhere else.

 

The other argument that came up to at times is that everyone should be able to succeed in the new ops and if they can't that increases sale runs, maybe it does increase sale runs, I really don't know, but the ops release simply follows the very same cycle this game had from 1.0

New operations stuff is released and is rather difficult in comparison, people enjoying the challenge have their fun and a few months later the first round of nerf happens and is being followed by more with time, opening up the content to a broader audience. Rinse and repeat. That was the case in 1.0, in 2.0 in 3.0 (remember Temple SM Underlurker or Revan HC anyone?), well no new ops in 4.0, but neither Gods nor Dxun in 5.0 and 6.0 were easy random or GF material when first released. It was always for the regular scheduled groups first and for random audience later (I don't consider a NIM raid oriented discords or lfg channel found groups as actual random group either, especially on the smaller servers, most have played together with each other somewhere at some point and it's not a true random level of skill at raiding), after knowledge about mechanics and tactics seeped through to more players and maybe the first nerf happened.

R4 is out for a month now? Just wait for the nerf rounds and everyone who wants, gets their chance. One more reason reason not to buy sale raids for gear, except for the 'but I want it now!'" people.

6.x was a bit of an outlier in that that there was none of that usual over-gearing cycle we had in other expansion, where new introduced higher gear levels meant that that the previous highest level became easier to get while at the same time content was nerfed too, 5.x started with 230 and ended with 258 shortly before 6.0, far from everyone could do NIM in 230 but once a lot reached the following ratings levels or even the 252/258 stage with time and updates passing, that number of players going into HC and NIM increased significantly. Just like currently 330 is available from vendors instead of only NIM before. There is still effort involved, but the audience able to get the higher rated stuff is broader than before, making things easier for them (at least in the few places where gear still matters).

 

Compared to other games Bioware did a lot to make sale raids less interesting from the buyer point of view. Achievements titles and mounts are still a thing and probably will be for as long as it is possible to carry someone to them. The only way to stop that would be to make it so hard or difficult that you can't carry anyone, but that opens another can of worms of how many players are going to be able to regularly succeed there then? Of course you can follow large amounts of credits and start to ban people, but that will just change the currency to crates or to RL money, not really stop sale runs.

Generally though I'd consider titles and mounts in the same category as platinum cartel market items, pure luxury and fluff, so if someone thinks they 'need' to pay those ridiculous prices for those, doesn't really affect me having fun with my raiding group.

Buying a raid for 340 gear rating though simply is stupid and a waste of credits and time, that is no P2W, that is find someone stupid enough to pay for something that has no real effect and that they'll get for free sooner or later anyway.

[ZUHFB]

Very good take. I can agree on all points, you know what you are talking about! AND you are able to explain it properly which I am not capable of doing.

[Xhuuyaa]

PerKIA: Pay to win, in other words.

 

Yes. but you aren't winning. [...]

But yes, saleruns are pay to win - as the word salerun already implies.

[RikuvonDrake]

PerKIA: Pay to win, in other words.

 

in a way sure, where there is a demand there will be a supply, you can buy ranking boosts in valorant/league/dota 2/csgo, you can get carried in wow and ff for cosmetic items, gear, achievements, crafting and so on, in most single player games there are plenty of milestones and similar equipment that players can pay someone else to achieve for them

 

welcome to reality

[bluehufsa]

in a way sure, where there is a demand there will be a supply, you can buy ranking boosts in valorant/league/dota 2/csgo, you can get carried in wow and ff for cosmetic items, gear, achievements, crafting and so on, in most single player games there are plenty of milestones and similar equipment that players can pay someone else to achieve for them

 

welcome to reality

 

We do not play Valorant, League. DOTA2, CS GO.. so it's pointless to compare those games with SWTOR. They are not made by the same companies and DO NOT have the same EULA & ToS.

[Chryptyk]

Yes other people break the ToS?

 

I have never nor will I ever RMT, I am simply in no need of credits or real life currency. Other people do RMT, which is what I said stop trying to change what I said.

 

If you know who is doing RMT, go ahead and report them.

[DeannaVoyager]

Previously this wasn't a problem because it isn't one either. I have never EVER had a buyer sign up to a fleet pug where they needed ach, and if they would've you could just kick them. It is also false that nobody wants to raid for only the last two bosses, nobody has the weekly anyway, no reason to fill your inventory with garbage. If you really think your achievments like... please stop being so insecure?

 

I just get the feeling that something is of about this discussion put I can't yet put finger on it. It just feels like what you say is what people think happens but its not at all how any of this works i dunno.

 

I see. You haven't fleet pugged something lately so you are totally clueless about it.

 

Ignorance is not a crime, you can be as ignorant as you want, but attacking someone who is more in touch with the reality doesn't make you more educated. It just makes your ignorance more obvious and shows you as what you really are.

[ZUHFB]

I see. You haven't fleet pugged something lately so you are totally clueless about it.

 

Ignorance is not a crime, you can be as ignorant as you want, but attacking someone who is more in touch with the reality doesn't make you more educated. It just makes your ignorance more obvious and shows you as what you really are.

 

Except that I have, it's a great way to get good parses. In a raidteam usually people steal each others DPS but doing a parse with a bad team is like taking candy from a baby. Mjm last week I joined and R-4 fleet pug, link ach, and we cleared it, was kinda fun. This week I touched too much grass, didn't get to raid except for mainraids

[Deaconik]

We do not play Valorant, League. DOTA2, CS GO.. so it's pointless to compare those games with SWTOR. They are not made by the same companies and DO NOT have the same EULA & ToS.

 

Except in most games RMT are banned as well as they essentially make a loss for the company behind them. Unless they sell the power. Maybe you should try to at least look at other games to realize it's a wider problem. And then you maybe realize we don't have to reinvent the wheel. And then maybe you will realize there's something called economics. And read basics. And then you can realize the only way how to combat the inflation is to combat the credit printing - in other words - you need to fix the credit selling. When you dislocate your joint, you fix the dislocation, don't just use painkillers and call it a day, trust me, that's a bad way to solve things.

[Chryptyk]

Except in most games RMT are banned as well as they essentially make a loss for the company behind them. Unless they sell the power. Maybe you should try to at least look at other games to realize it's a wider problem. And then you maybe realize we don't have to reinvent the wheel. And then maybe you will realize there's something called economics. And read basics. And then you can realize the only way how to combat the inflation is to combat the credit printing - in other words - you need to fix the credit selling. When you dislocate your joint, you fix the dislocation, don't just use painkillers and call it a day, trust me, that's a bad way to solve things.

 

According to fleet spam, a hypercrate is about $10 (US). To put that in perspective, It costs over $100 worth of CCs to get 3 hypercrates. With a rate that low, it's no wonder why people would go to credit sellers to buy creds and hypercrates. EAware is losing money left and right by allowing the credit sellers to continue to operate with impunity. They need to be shut down and those that use them need to be banned as well.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Chryptyk

[RikuvonDrake]

According to fleet spam, a hypercrate is about $10 (US). To put that in perspective, It costs over $100 worth of CCs to get 3 hypercrates. With a rate that low, it's no wonder why people would go to credit sellers to buy creds and hypercrates. EAware is losing money left and right by allowing the credit sellers to continue to operate with impunity. They need to be shut down and those that use them need to be banned as well.

 

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the fact that credit sellers are a problem, what more open doors are we going to kick in next? Credit sellers are however irrelevant to sale runs, how the buyers acquire the credits to afford their runs is up to them, just like how someone selling 14 gold augments for 2b each to some raider doesn't care how they got their credits

 

use the ingame ticket feature and the report function to notify Bioware of credit sellers and credit buyers, nothing would make us who sell runs happier than not having to trade 80-100b each time we are doing a sale run, it takes a long time and is really boring/annoying, bring back the old economy

[Chryptyk]

Credit sellers are however irrelevant to sale runs, how the buyers acquire the credits to afford their runs is up to them, just like how someone selling 14 gold augments for 2b each to some raider doesn't care how they got their credits

 

Credit sellers are not relevant? That's just wrong. Just because a runner doesn't care where the money or goods come from to pay for their service, doesnt mean it's irrelevant. Buyers are largely RPers or people who just aren't skilled enough to run in the right circles to get things on their own. They don't have enough credits or items to blow or bleed themselves dry, so they go to the credit sellers to get what they need to pay for sale runs. This is very well known. Taking those illegal funds makes you just as culpable in my book, because you know where they came from. I've been on sales teams. I quit when it became clear to me where most buyers were getting their money from and that pricing was all based on greed.

[ZUHFB]

Credit sellers are not relevant? That's just wrong. Just because a runner doesn't care where the money or goods come from to pay for their service, doesnt mean it's irrelevant. Buyers are largely RPers or people who just aren't skilled enough to run in the right circles to get things on their own. They don't have enough credits or items to blow or bleed themselves dry, so they go to the credit sellers to get what they need to pay for sale runs. This is very well known. Taking those illegal funds makes you just as culpable in my book, because you know where they came from. I've been on sales teams. I quit when it became clear to me where most buyers were getting their money from and that pricing was all based on greed.

 

No, you were not.

[DeannaVoyager]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the fact that credit sellers are a problem, what more open doors are we going to kick in next? Credit sellers are however irrelevant to sale runs, how the buyers acquire the credits to afford their runs is up to them, just like how someone selling 14 gold augments for 2b each to some raider doesn't care how they got their credits

 

use the ingame ticket feature and the report function to notify Bioware of credit sellers and credit buyers, nothing would make us who sell runs happier than not having to trade 80-100b each time we are doing a sale run, it takes a long time and is really boring/annoying, bring back the old economy

 

 

Ofc credit sellers are relevant to sale runs. You need credits for two things in this game: to buy sale runs (gear and cheevos) and to buy cosmetics. Get rid of sale runs, and you'll get rid of 50% of the reasons to buy credits from the credit sellers.

[ZUHFB]

Ofc credit sellers are relevant to sale runs. You need credits for two things in this game: to buy sale runs (gear and cheevos) and to buy cosmetics. Get rid of sale runs, and you'll get rid of 50% of the reasons to buy credits from the credit sellers.

 

Either wings of nihrot drop, or they don't - it's just a 50/50.

 

Nevermind the fact that probably 96% of bought credits go towards cosmetics and GTN stuff. Yeah damn.

[Xhuuyaa]

Nevermind the fact that probably 96% of bought credits go towards cosmetics and GTN stuff. Yeah damn.

 

Aside that this number is out of thin air, I would say that much more credits go into things like "gear", stims, medpacks - but especially augments which have become, due to inflation, nearly unaffordable for (new) players.

[ZUHFB]

Aside that this number is out of thin air, I would say that much more credits go into things like "gear", stims, medpacks - but especially augments which have become, due to inflation, nearly unaffordable for (new) players.

 

*sigh* god please help me.

 

Obviously, I just wanted to say that the amount of credits used for sales is completely insignificant. There are how many sales per week? Maybe one or two brontes which is... 60b? Meanwhile hypercrates get traded for 5b a piece on 5 servers while sales only really happen on two.

[Xhuuyaa]

Obviously, I just wanted to say that the amount of credits used for sales is completely insignificant.

 

It may surprise you but I agree.