Your playerbase is in uproar now IS NOT the time to stay silent Bioware

[Yojadi]

It's hilarious, they aren't even doing damage control or trying to calm the flames they are literally sitting back and watching the flames burn it all down

[Yojadi]

*Unpopular opinion*

 

I don't understand all the blaming of BW. They are on the EA leash afterall, so the one to blame is Electronic Arts in the first place. Bioware are just developers who were striped off the last bits of creativity and choice. They are being told what to release, in what state and when, finished or not. Its the same situation like Naughty Dog / Sony, Crystal Dynamics / Ubisoft or CCP Games / Pearl Abyss.

 

Bioware on its own can decide f*ckall, they have owners. This update is a disaster indeed, but BW is realy the last to blame

 

You're not very smart if you think Bioware had nothing to do with this "expansion" being released in this state

[Yojadi]

Final Fantasy - Bad launch, they hunkered down, listened to players, and turned the ship around. The current results speak for themselves.

 

SWTOR - let's see what they do.

 

Let's see what they do?

you just compared FFXIV's relaunch 10 years ago to Swtor's 8th expansion? This isn't a... "lets see what they do to salvage it" situation, swtor had that moment 11 years ago

[Alasthia]

Well, my money will be as silent as them.

[Master_Morak]

(sorry, I didn't mean for this to get long, but I've just spent all week binging The Newsroom on HBOMax. If you don't know what that is it is a 10 year old show about a fictional cable news network trying to fight the fight to make "real" news instead of "internet" news......so...this got more preachy than I first thought it would but I'm deciding to go with it)

 

What could they possibly say?

 

Realistically, from the point of view of people who have bosses and have to make decisions that will directly affect the work environment, and possibly their own employment....

 

What would appease you in terms of a response?

 

Obviously, I'm not an employee of EA or Bioware, not in the gaming industry at all. I do tech support in a corporate environment. I've also, interestingly enough, about 20 years ago, spoken to someone in a small company trying to make a game that...if I remember correctly...was supposed to be some kind of hybrid between GTA and...I think something called Fable. I had a conversation with the brother of a friend who was one of the "leaders" at that studio and we talked about the ability of being able to course correct in the middle of a project.

He said, it wasn't really an option because by the time they would know if they had a mistake, money and time would have been spent and they could not simply throw it away and start over.

I was coming at it from the point of view as someone who had delusions of being a novelist. A writer can, unless under a deadline, toss everything and start over.

Game companies, programmers for projects as a whole (I would imagine) can't.

...

 

I don't want to reply the whole text, obviously you are right in most points. But ...

In my opinion they know there situation about budget, ressources, expectations, etc but they handle it in an incompentent and stuborn manner.

I'm an enterprise and system architect in an telecommunication company so software developement unter restrictions in budget and ressources are daily business. Our company decited to go anyway from old great projects and establish an agile process and developement. And that is were they failed - if I had not the ressorces like WoW or FF14 for great Addons, than I must develope small parts with close coordination with my community. The feedback of my customer are the only what counts not my own wishes not what I think should be, only what the mayority of them want.

 

I'm sure the SWTOR Community would help to develope the game in the right direction, but then feedback from the PTS must be seriously taken into develpment process. And an agile process with focus on one part after an other with an constant delivery every three or four weeks give all the feeling of an living game.

[Kryptonomic]

In terms of "not the time to stay silent" ...

 

First, I agree that, as usual, Bioware is taking the wrong approach. The lack of community management has always been an issue, however, with the game. Granted, that's an opinion and painting with a broad brush.

 

That said ... the "right approach" is tricky if, in fact, any feedback received would actually go nowhere.

 

Breaking this down ...

 

One of the hardest aspects of community management is that you have to (1) be empathetic, (2) stay invested and engaged but (3) you must not -- indeed, cannot -- bad-mouth your own game or be seen as agreeing that the studio made horrible decisions.

 

Whether the studio did or didn't make horrible decisions is beside the point; it's simply that community managers can actively empathize but only up to a point. So that's a challenge.

 

So what do you do when at least a vocal forum-based portion of your community is up in arms but you can't really promise anything? Or disagree with design decisions? Or, in fact, have any influence on those design decisions in the first place? You can't justify what may or may not have been taken as feedback from PTS. You can't state what product or development pressures were operative. You can't reveal internal details about team size or resource allocation.

 

Yet you have to communicate ... something. But ... what?

 

From a community management side, what they generally do is act as a conduit to the product developers. It's those product developers who ultimately will be the conduit to the application developers. And the product developers are beholden to the product managers (they may, in fact, be the same person) who are beholden to some aspect of revenue generation or competitive acceleration. (The latter meaning: make your game accelerate in its competitiveness with others.) And, of course, everyone is beholden to the Holy Cost Center, which is whatever aspect of your budget exists that is allocated for development of the game itself (as opposed to operating studio costs, etc).

 

I think someone upthread said it well. The best Bioware can do at this point is acknowledge the obvious: there is a great deal of divisiveness over the 7.0 implementation plus content. That's at least letting your player base know you aren't tone deaf or oblivious. It doesn't solve anything, however, because what Bioware can't tell you (generally) is why they had to go down a certain path since that's tied to internal business initiatives that (again, generally) they won't -- and can't -- reveal.

[Chedica]

I can express my feelings about 7.0 and Swtor in just one sentence.

I don't feel hate, i just feel sorry.

 

I'm one of those resubscribers, group focused players, who left the game when Bioware decided to go down the Kotet, Kotfe Path. It felt like a Mass-exodus for me, all friends i had gathered over the years, left the game, so i did too. But man, we had such a good time during the Oricon and Shadow of Revan days. So thank you for that... and because of the good times, i always came back, for a short time, to check if Swtor is worth to subscribe again. Well, it never was, to be honest..., but there was still a little hope. But now, i am cured. So thank you again, i guess. This was the last time. This expansion killed all hope, that Swtor could ever recover. So sad.

 

Wow! You have no idea how this resonates with me! I have done exactly the same voyage.

 

Up until 4.0, we had so much fun. The content (of course was imperfect) was great. And we had had what 7 raids in 2 years ish? Like pugging during thise days was fun. And then they slashed us with 4 and 5.0.... most of my guild left. 4 raid teams i was in, pretty much everyone left.

 

Guess i'll have to stay with those pre-2016 memories.

[joshuadyal]

I think a lot of the drama here on the forums overstates things. If people were really done with the game, they'd just quietly stop playing or at least stop paying, and go do something else. They don't go on the forums, make some grand, dramatic announcement about their seniority as a player, and then flounce out. That's just performance art, and I don't trust that most of those people are really going anywhere, or at least that they'll stay gone if they do. The only tell that actually matters is revenue over the coming weeks and months, and it's unlikely that we'll have any idea outside of the company what that is doing.

[iopseal]

I think a lot of the drama here on the forums overstates things. If people were really done with the game, they'd just quietly stop playing or at least stop paying, and go do something else. They don't go on the forums, make some grand, dramatic announcement about their seniority as a player, and then flounce out. That's just performance art, and I don't trust that most of those people are really going anywhere, or at least that they'll stay gone if they do. The only tell that actually matters is revenue over the coming weeks and months, and it's unlikely that we'll have any idea outside of the company what that is doing.

 

Don't worry once my subscription ends you won't be hearing from me anymore!

[Kryptonomic]

If people were really done with the game, they'd just quietly stop playing or at least stop paying, and go do something else. They don't go on the forums, make some grand, dramatic announcement about their seniority as a player, and then flounce out. That's just performance art, and I don't trust that most of those people are really going anywhere, or at least that they'll stay gone if they do.

 

Exactly right as a general rule. In the game development/studio industry, MMO players in general are known as "treadmill gamers." By which is meant you can keep them on the treadmill and, no matter how angry they get, they'll either stay or come back. And they'll keep spending money.

 

This particular MMO is interesting in that it is (1) Star Wars and (2) heavily story-focused. What that means is the "traditional" MMO player can't necessarily be assumed since brand loyalty (or at least investment) can play a large part and the story can trump all for a lot of people, as long as there's enough of it to do. Particularly for new players who will be experiencing all of the story from the start.

[Lassiter]

Ubisoft game isn't mmo, can't you read ?

 

There won't be a new mmo for star wars as there isn't one for lotr either. It's either swtor or 5-10 year wait for someone to actually build something anew.

 

Cant your read? Obvious you can't, UBISOFT is creating a open world multiplayer game like defiance, the new version of mmo, they would not have announced it if they didnt have a bare bones version to show the Mouse, they started officially working on it in 2020 so a 2023 or more likely mid to late 2024 release date. Lucas film Games/Disney has stated in the past they will only have ONE Star Wars MMO/Multiplayer game online at any time. Perhaps you should do a little research and bump up those reading skills.

[OlBuzzard]

I think a lot of the drama here on the forums overstates things. If people were really done with the game, they'd just quietly stop playing or at least stop paying, and go do something else. They don't go on the forums, make some grand, dramatic announcement about their seniority as a player, and then flounce out. That's just performance art, and I don't trust that most of those people are really going anywhere, or at least that they'll stay gone if they do. The only tell that actually matters is revenue over the coming weeks and months, and it's unlikely that we'll have any idea outside of the company what that is doing.

 

I do agree that this may be the case for some... BUT perhaps not everyone. I also agree that if everyone who has stated that they are quitting DOES actually quit .. OH MY !! :eek:

 

I also believe that coming here and telling the team how disgusted that they are is appropriate as long as that report is based on factual information and valid reasoning ( a few examples: hiding gear behind certain areas / the new UI / and of course BUGS .) Please note that this list is not complete by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I also agree that the "long term" impact is what will matter the most. Let's see where things are at say three months from now. If the downward spiral continues, then IMO ... yes, things are in serious trouble. BUT I don't think we are quite there just yet.

[Darev]

I think a lot of the drama here on the forums overstates things. If people were really done with the game, they'd just quietly stop playing or at least stop paying, and go do something else. They don't go on the forums, make some grand, dramatic announcement about their seniority as a player, and then flounce out. That's just performance art, and I don't trust that most of those people are really going anywhere, or at least that they'll stay gone if they do. The only tell that actually matters is revenue over the coming weeks and months, and it's unlikely that we'll have any idea outside of the company what that is doing.

 

Generally speaking, there are people here, who I would agree, are here just to be "seen"

There are some that show up after every major release complaining about the popular complaint of the day, whatever it happens to be. it's usually 1 or 2 specific things.

 

7.0 is the first time, that I can remember, that there have been SO MANY DIFFERENT things that they got wrong all in the same patch.

 

And really only 1 or 2 that I think most people think that they got right.

 

My accounts are good for 3+ months. I'm going to wait and see how it shakes out.

I can tell you that I can already tell that, based ONLY on what I have seen in game since Tuesday, conquest points have been nerfed into the ground for how I have spent the last two years playing. I am not happy about that.

[LunaticFringer]

It could be said they've had the opportunity to turn negative feedback into a boon several times already. And they have tried over the years, even if they didn't stick the landing a lot of times.

 

I think the very real problem though is, OP, is your very first sentence. The team has changed and dwindled down over the years-- but they don't really listen to do not do this feedback. It's only critique this because we're going to add it in some form or another if ya want it or not. End of line.

 

Of course, I don't have a huge problem with the xpac right now. I see a lot of bugs that need fixed. And the UI is terrible. But I came from SWG where we quite literally got sold on an xpac just to have the entire game uprooted upon launch of said xpac. This doesn't feel like the NGE by a long shot. Though I understand it feels like it to the playerbase right now. Was a chunk of this a bad idea? Yeap. Yeap it was. But they probably won't acknowledge that. They'll repackage what we liked, at best, and bring it back as a new feature would be my guess.

 

It feels a lot less dire though if you just assume every mmorpg experience is a beta test anymore for some game they have yet planned to make in the future.

[Walpurulis]

a handfull of people isnt the playerbase lmaooooo

[Darev]

I do agree that this may be the case for some... BUT perhaps not everyone. I also agree that if everyone who has stated that they are quitting DOES actually quit .. OH MY !! :eek:

 

I also believe that coming here and telling the team how disgusted that they are is appropriate as long as that report is based on factual information and valid reasoning ( a few examples: hiding gear behind certain areas / the new UI / and of course BUGS .) Please note that this list is not complete by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I also agree that the "long term" impact is what will matter the most. Let's see where things are at say three months from now. If the downward spiral continues, then IMO ... yes, things are in serious trouble. BUT I don't think we are quite there just yet.

 

We could potentially find out exactly what ratio of subscribers to F2P accounts they need to keep the bosses happy.

 

Like it or not, you HAVE to be a subscriber to post here, and IF the people saying they're going to quit actually do...that's a lot of cancelled accounts (using the "if one person takes the time to complain to you about your product/service/etc....assume that 10 others have the same opinion and just didn't tell you about it" rule of thumb)

[Darev]

It could be said they've had the opportunity to turn negative feedback into a boon several times already. And they have tried over the years, even if they didn't stick the landing a lot of times.

 

I think the very real problem though is, OP, is your very first sentence. The team has changed and dwindled down over the years-- but they don't really listen to do not do this feedback. It's only critique this because we're going to add it in some form or another if ya want it or not. End of line.

 

Of course, I don't have a huge problem with the xpac right now. I see a lot of bugs that need fixed. And the UI is terrible. But I came from SWG where we quite literally got sold on an xpac just to have the entire game uprooted upon launch of said xpac. This doesn't feel like the NGE by a long shot. Though I understand it feels like it to the playerbase right now. Was a chunk of this a bad idea? Yeap. Yeap it was. But they probably won't acknowledge that. They'll repackage what we liked, at best, and bring it back as a new feature would be my guess.

 

It feels a lot less dire though if you just assume every mmorpg experience is a beta test anymore for some game they have yet planned to make in the future.

 

I went through the NGE. I played SWG from day 1 until the servers shut down.

This feels like 5-10% of the NGE

[mentalmackem]

I went through the NGE. I played SWG from day 1 until the servers shut down.

This feels like 5-10% of the NGE

 

I was also there for the NGE, think my point has been misunderstood, im not saying the stuff in game is like the NGE im saying the deafening silence to the community is like the NGE

[Sarova]

Will they even have the balls to apologise to the community who told them for over 6 months that this was the wrong approach and reported ALL the problems that have gone live while on the PTS builds.

 

How does something like this even go live with things that players reported over 6 months ago? Who is responsible for allowing this to happen?

I said this too many times since Tuesday. All I can think is that back when they delayed, the people on the shop floor knew it was a disaster and told us as much BUT someone(s) much higher up decided they needed to release on the 15th Feb no matter what the result and there just aren't enough people to fix all the issues quickly.

 

It must be sole destroying to have to face the players' wrath, read all our negative experiences/views on these forums and elsewhere on social media and try to remain positive/diplomatic in their responses. I do feel bad for Jackie** & co having to do this; I would have walked by now.

 

And for ****s sake, change the damn font back so it doesn’t hurt our eyes and we can see it.

I seriously thought that font was for the PTS only to distinguish it from live. I had no idea it was a permanent change. It hurts my eyes

 

**many of us really appreciate yours and your colleagues responses Jackie! Sorry you're having to deal with nothing but us moaning this week. Hopefully things will improve and we'll all go back to requesting LIs and romances. By we I mean me

[Calidge]

I think the "deafening silence" is a sign that BW is honestly surprised at the reactions and don't know how to react.

 

And THAT is a very bad sign.

 

Prove me wrong, BW.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Calidge
typo

[joshuadyal]

This particular MMO is interesting in that it is (1) Star Wars and (2) heavily story-focused. What that means is the "traditional" MMO player can't necessarily be assumed since brand loyalty (or at least investment) can play a large part and the story can trump all for a lot of people, as long as there's enough of it to do. Particularly for new players who will be experiencing all of the story from the start.

Eh, but the same can be said for Star Wars fans as a rule. They keep coming back no matter how bad of a girlfriend Star Wars has turned out to be, because they remember all of the good times in the past and they keep holding out hope that they'll return somehow. I honestly can't articulate why I'm a Star Wars fan anymore, and I have plenty enough reason to break up with the franchise for good. But I still am a fan nonetheless, and I'm always back for when they do something right, or even not horribly overtly wrong. I almost have a battered spouse relationship with Star Wars. It only hits me because it loves me!

 

So SWTOR gets it on both sides; both from MMO fans (to the extent that they still exist anymore; I think the more derived games that have a more relaxed GTA Online type of structure rather than traditional MMO structure is the new model going forward. Star Wars Online rather than Star Wars the MMO. And, to be fair, SWTOR is kinda that now) and from Star Wars fans. All of them are super forgiving and willing to sweep past indiscretions under the rug.

[mentalmackem]

It must be sole destroying to have to face the players' wrath, read all our negative experiences/views on these forums and elsewhere on social media and try to remain positive/diplomatic in their responses. I do feel bad for Jackie** & co having to do this; I would have walked by now.

 

 

 

**many of us really appreciate yours and your colleagues responses Jackie! Sorry you're having to deal with nothing but us moaning this week. Hopefully things will improve and we'll all go back to requesting LIs and romances. By we I mean me

 

Thats the point, they aren't being diplomatic and positive, they are being silent!

 

Theres a bug with people swapping factions if they pick an advanced class from another faction leaving there characters stuck in limbo and Bioware have said nothing.

[MystyqeofXev]

You know what would've been better than 7.0?

 

Nothing.

 

Let that sink in for a moment.

[Calidge]

You know what would've been better than 7.0?

 

Nothing

 

I was a happy camper on Monday. Good times.

[Darev]

I said this too many times since Tuesday. All I can think is that back when they delayed, the people on the shop floor knew it was a disaster and told us as much BUT someone(s) much higher up decided they needed to release on the 15th Feb no matter what the result and there just aren't enough people to fix all the issues quickly.

 

It must be sole destroying to have to face the players' wrath, read all our negative experiences/views on these forums and elsewhere on social media and try to remain positive/diplomatic in their responses. I do feel bad for Jackie** & co having to do this; I would have walked by now.

 

 

I seriously thought that font was for the PTS only to distinguish it from live. I had no idea it was a permanent change. It hurts my eyes

 

**many of us really appreciate yours and your colleagues responses Jackie! Sorry you're having to deal with nothing but us moaning this week. Hopefully things will improve and we'll all go back to requesting LIs and romances. By we I mean me

 

To me it isn't JUST a matter of "fixing" anything, though there are many bugs that need fixed.

Someone, at some point in the last 6 months, decided on the wrong direction to take the game.

 

The short story that came with 7.0 was to be expected. It's essentially the same setup as 6.0 with the intro to the story taking us to Ossus. I kind of expected that, only this time the daily area wasn't finished in time so we aren't distracted by grinding up new rep (is there even rep for manaan?)

 

Changing how the Gearing system worked. That's a pretty major design change.

Changing how the weeklies for the heroics & daily areas work. that's a pretty major design change.

Changing how the skill trees work. That's a pretty major design change.

 

There isn't anything to really fix with these examples. You either commit to them, and they have, or you change them back to how they were before....which I doubt very much they're willing to do.