Why OPS shouldnt give the best gear.

[ZionHalcyon]

You do realize that if Nim bosses drop Bis gear, BY DESIGN, you can never NEED the loot from Nim OPS bosses to beat Nim bosses right?

 

You are playing with words to win a strawman argument, while those of us who have raided prior to 6.0 know EXACTLY the system they are going back to. It was a system that was in place for most of the history of the game in some form, and its removal in 6.0 is the major reason why most raiders left.

 

Knock it off. You aren't going to win this argument on a verbal technicality.

[ralphieceaser]

You are playing with words to win a strawman argument, while those of us who have raided prior to 6.0 know EXACTLY the system they are going back to. It was a system that was in place for most of the history of the game in some form, and its removal in 6.0 is the major reason why most raiders left.

 

Knock it off. You aren't going to win this argument on a verbal technicality.

You seem to not understand, this is not a verbal technicality, it is common sense.

Nim boss drops best loot

Ergo if they designed the boss to require best loot to be beaten NOBODY WOULD EVER BEAT THE BOSS.

 

Meaning Nim boss is beatable without best loot ergo raiders dont NEED best loot to beat the boss. (Unless they want to be carried by gear or carry bad buddies who cannot perform so need unfair gear advantages to even compete)

 

The main reason raiders have been craving for this system is because it treats raiders as somekind of special group and treats everyone else as a 2nd class citizen, that is the real reason most raiders like such system because it makes them feel special even though they dont deserve special treatment compared to any other player group in the game.

This entitlement has simply been build of over years of such outdated designs dominating and you think if you stop receiving special treatment the game is bad.

 

Again explained everything at OP so i wont repeat myself.

Edited December 12, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[MystyqeofXev]

Don't forget, if BiS gear wasn't safely tucked behind NiM bosses, raiders couldn't sell carries.

[Toraak]

You do realize that if Nim bosses drop Bis gear, BY DESIGN, you can never NEED the loot from Nim OPS bosses to beat Nim bosses right?

 

Not actually correct. Before 3.0 when this was implemented, most groups needed to slowly kill NiM bosses to upgrade gear. When you got enough of the BiS pieces from the earlier bosses for your group, you slowly started to work your way through more and more bosses. Most groups couldn't walk into a NiM Ops and just clear it all in lower gear.

 

So when I ask, how are they being balanced, it actually is an important question that BW needs to answer. If they are going back to this, then yes NiM Ops does require a higher tier level then HM to complete.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Toraak

[divinecynic]

My god, it's unbelievable how many people think they're entitled to the best gear for doing nothing. I hate to break your little bubble, but no.

The best gear should be awarded only to the people that complete the hardest content of this game - operations and PvP(but that's a different story). Eternal Championshis's difficulty is nowhere even remotely near that of most hard mode ops, not to mention nightmare. Even with guides and tutorials, people wipe for prolonged amounts of time. And what do these people get in the end? Oh, the same rewards as people that are doing heroics? Wonderful, what a great incentive.

BWA's catering to the casual community already ended up in a mass exodus of actual MMO players to WoW, ESO, etc. Given the sudden roll backward of a gearing system, it was a huge number of players and likely financial metrics confirm that otherwise, a current RNG-******** system would have remained.

If casuals want to leave... well, good luck finding a mmo that has a different gearing system.

 

I hate to burst your bubble but if enough casuals leave the game dies. Casuals are the majority of players. 6.0, where they catered to casuals, has seen the game be more active than it has ben in a long time. Lack of raids did lead to an exodus, but the game got more active after they made BiS gear available for any content. The raid exodus had been over for years. 6.0 and it's gearing system had people coming back. The gearing system did have a big issue, RNG.

 

This goes back to the root of the issue, raiders and Bioware are so hot that Ops be favored that they are willing to loose players over it. This isn't an issue of the hardest activities in the game giving the best rewards or else PvP would give BiS gear.

 

When you speak of entitlement, it's kind of funny. I want players to have the freedom to play the game they want to play. You and other raiders are arguing that the whole game needs to be tailored to your expectations. I am not trying to change how you play the game. Where is the bigger sense of entitlement? I want Swtor to be as popular as possible to keep it going. You and others are willing to burn it down to try to make it fit a mold it doesn't.

 

Let me be as clear as I can. Bioware is taking away access to something casuals have now. If casuals wanted to progression raid they would be now. This is not going to draw a significant portion of the playerbase to MM Ops. It never does. They are going to be to pissed about it. A shorter gear chase and the other restrictions mean casuals are going to spend less money on the game. Less money earned by the game means EA is more likely to shut it down. What is so hard about this? The last thing anyone should want is people to leave the game.

 

I really hope I am wrong. I love swtor. I actually am not worried about BiS gear. I am worried that this is going to damage the game. The Kotor remake and Eclipse are coming. They are a significant threat to the casual playerbase of the game. This just makes it worse, when Bioware should be working hard on player retention.

[Toraak]

I'm not sure how much the kotor remake or eclipse is going to affect this game. Many will play through the kotor remake for sure, but it only took me about 20-40 hours to beat the original when it first came out. So people will play it, and then possibly come back. As for Eclipse, I know nothing about that, so I don't know if that could draw people away for a lot longer.

[divinecynic]

I'm not sure how much the kotor remake or eclipse is going to affect this game. Many will play through the kotor remake for sure, but it only took me about 20-40 hours to beat the original when it first came out. So people will play it, and then possibly come back. As for Eclipse, I know nothing about that, so I don't know if that could draw people away for a lot longer.

 

Eclipse is supposed to be a large open world single player rpg. Also toss Starfield and DA 4 in there too. Big name single player rpgs are coming. Swtor is not even going to be the only rp game in town for it's era. Eclipse is High Republic but that's close. Casuals are here for story and Bioware is getting competition on all fronts for that demographic.

 

I know folks who left for Jedi Fallen Order and never came back.

 

Swtor has a dated engine and dated graphics. Making an expansion that is unfriendly to a large portion of the playerbase (casuals and alt players) is a bad decision and is going to hurt the game. 7.0 defenders either do not get that or do not care.

[Ramalina]

You are playing with words to win a strawman argument, while those of us who have raided prior to 6.0 know EXACTLY the system they are going back to. It was a system that was in place for most of the history of the game in some form, and its removal in 6.0 is the major reason why most raiders left.

 

TLDR version: It doesn't really matter if people other than Raiders get BiS gear or not in this game, and it's unlikely that a gearing system reminiscent of 1.0 but slightly worse will bring back raiding in a big way when what really killed the raiding scene was a content drought that started after 3.0 and hasn't really let up since.

 

By my recollection the gearing system had almost nothing to do with it. By the time 6.0 rolled around an ill considered and unnecessary change to the gearing system with every expansion was what everyone expected.

 

What hemorrhaged raiders was the years in which first: new expansions were almost barren of endgame content, and second: endgame content that was being recycled and for which you had to regear was also being nerfed heavily to make it more accessible.

 

So faced with regearing in a new and annoyingly RNG grindy gear system, doing content that you'd already been doing for years, and which was dumbed down because not standing in the glowy green crap which kills you is too hard for some people, lots of people quite reasonably decided that raiding endgame in SWTOR was basically dead because Bioware had abandoned it, and left. They weren't really wrong.

 

Quite a lot of high end raiders in my experience did most forms of content in their MMO(s) of choice. Usually in a WoW-like one you can get gear that's usable, if not the best, from multiple content avenues when a new expac drops. Sure, what you got out of PvP, or MM FPs, or HM ops might be vendored in a few weeks when a proper optimized piece drops in your progression Op, but for a short interim period it might be a minor upgrade over the last tier of BiS gear, and raiders are all about the upgrades, even minor ones. It's also nice to have some level of fall back if RNG is being a complete and utter b****. That's where the alternate currencies and assorted "gear source other than content drops," really came from in the first place. Drops tended to suck once you got to a certain level of gearing because the drop was never the piece you needed. Which led to "generic BiS chest" but then there was "trading generic BiS chest to a vendor on fleet feels less epic than looting off the boss (because it makes total sense that say: Karraga, The Terror from Beyond, or Soa wears a tanking, healing, or DPS outfit in exactly your character's waist size), but complaints are complaints so it evolved into currency systems.

 

Then people, including raiders, started asking for more activities to drop the currencies because the Ops reward rates were stingy enough so that you still felt at the mercy of bad RNG to get that offhand that just wouldn't ever drop, and hey you're doing all that other content anyway, and if the only reasonable way to get your Ops offhand is from currencies gained outside of Ops, well it's still an improvement over bad RNG.

 

Leaving aside the social preening which is, like it or not, a big chunk of what drives the desire for BiS gear in raiders, there's a game satisfaction issue going on here.

 

The rate of endgame content release in this game is glacial in speed, and tiny in size. Raiders will be out of new content to play with most of the time. Which leaves gear grind as the only avenue for player retention for them if they're not interested in what the rest of what the game has to offer at endgame (not that much). It's not like people are really keen to grind gear for a particular Op the 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th time, but what else is there to do?

 

It's a lose-lose proposition for Bioware. Either people are unhappy that there's nothing to do or they're unhappy that the only thing to do is a super grindy regearing for the umpteenth time.

 

 

I don't think that trying to go back to 1.0 levels of grind for gear is going to solve player retention problems though. Gear progression is nice, but what you really need is something to keep from being bored out of your skull after you've got the newest raid on farm, and all the older raids on farm again.

 

I'm not sure I really care one way or another about gear availability. It's not like good gear is needed for much of anything in SWTOR, and it doesn't really impair raiders if everyone eventually winds up running around in BiS gear to do Heroic dailies. Raiders will still be the only ones with raid achievements, and given how much cartel market cosmetic gear drives looks in the games it's not like gear is particularly effective as an epeen flex in SWTOR, you need a mount or companion for that really.

 

I think the expected outcomes here are:

• Brief glory of being able to epeen flex again fades for raiders after they realize that there's still only one new bit of content for them and no one is looking at their gear stats anyway.
  
• Casuals get really cranky and storm the forums with gearing complaint posts.
  
• People who left due to content drought, if they come back do so long enough to clear the new raid and then leave again, because they left due to being bored not because they were pining for a sucky gear grind.
  
• Bioware after realizing that an unsubtle attempt to present a gear grind in old content does not fool any players into thinking it's new content walks back the 7.0 gear gating in some way or another, probably managing to annoy a bunch of players in the process.
  

[ralphieceaser]

Not actually correct. Before 3.0 when this was implemented, most groups needed to slowly kill NiM bosses to upgrade gear. When you got enough of the BiS pieces from the earlier bosses for your group, you slowly started to work your way through more and more bosses. Most groups couldn't walk into a NiM Ops and just clear it all in lower gear.

 

So when I ask, how are they being balanced, it actually is an important question that BW needs to answer. If they are going back to this, then yes NiM Ops does require a higher tier level then HM to complete.

You are forgetting, this isnt 3.0, game has changed a lot since then and Swtor raids do not have that many bosses.

 

The design you are referring too mainly appears in games that have a lot of bosses such as WoW with 10-12 boss raids, and even then, world first shows 8-9/10 bosses are killable week one with gear that is very FAAAAR from best, and even when the last boss dies they are yet again very far from having bis gear because it is still week 2-3 by that time.

 

Swtor raids have always been easier than WoW or ff14, so I am having very strong doubts as that it was even the case, because dont confuse bad play with something being mathematically impossible, for something to be mathematically impossible mechanics have to be performed flawlessly and dps need to perform well.

 

Keep in mind in 7.0 dps performance of others is public, so dps meters will very well show if someone is lacking, though sadly more often than not it will be a few people moaning about dps being low when the group wiped at 30% cuz half the raid failed to do mechanics properly, these people should instantly be ignored and never listened to because clearly they dont understand how raiding works.

 

I understand what you are talking about, I just have very strong doubts that bioware would ever go there(though with recent decisions) or more importantly even be able to tune things so perfectly to achieve that.

[ralphieceaser]

Eclipse is supposed to be a large open world single player rpg. Also toss Starfield and DA 4 in there too. Big name single player rpgs are coming. Swtor is not even going to be the only rp game in town for it's era. Eclipse is High Republic but that's close. Casuals are here for story and Bioware is getting competition on all fronts for that demographic.

Now that could possibly explain their recent focus on raid or die model if they are worried the solo casual playerbase is going to leave, sadly though even then I cant imagine swtor ever being able to compete with any serious raiding mmorpg out there for that strategy to be successful.

 

Though I am not certain how much casuals who enjoy mmorpgs overlap with single player RPG games.

 

I personally enjoy single player rpgs like da3 but once I finish them, I go back to mmorpgs because unlike single player games, mmorpgs never end and all the time you spend doing stuff rewards you with a character and rewards you can have for years until the game is shut down, meanwhile once you see most of the story from a single player game, there isnt much left to do, bioware rpgs have some extra replayability since you can try different paths and ending but not the average single player game

 

And tbh I dont feel very hyped for that high republic game, old republic is an era where the story and lore are great, high republic always felt meh and uninteresting, very fitting the movies took part then xD

Though just a note, pretty sure DA4 is nowhere near ready anytime soon, we still have no info or updates or even a serious design direction

 

Swtor has a dated engine and dated graphics. Making an expansion that is unfriendly to a large portion of the playerbase (casuals and alt players) is a bad decision and is going to hurt the game. 7.0 defenders either do not get that or do not care.

They do not care, they just want to once again receive that undeserved special treatment where you either raid high end or your character has inferior gear, stats and everything, it is the "for me to win, you must lose" type of mentality.

Edited December 13, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[divinecynic]

Now that could possibly explain their recent focus on raid or die model if they are worried the solo casual playerbase is going to leave, sadly though even then I cant imagine swtor ever being able to compete with any serious raiding mmorpg out there for that strategy to be successful.

 

Though I am not certain how much casuals who enjoy mmorpgs overlap with single player RPG games.

 

I personally enjoy single player rpgs like da3 but once I finish them, I go back to mmorpgs because unlike single player games, mmorpgs never end and all the time you spend doing stuff rewards you with a character and rewards you can have for years until the game is shut down, meanwhile once you see most of the story from a single player game, there isnt much left to do, bioware rpgs have some extra replayability since you can try different paths and ending but not the average single player game

 

And tbh I dont feel very hyped for that high republic game, old republic is an era where the story and lore are great, high republic always felt meh and uninteresting, very fitting the movies took part then xD

Though just a note, pretty sure DA4 is nowhere near ready anytime soon, we still have no info or updates or even a serious design direction

 

Honestly in my experience most MMO players I know also play single player rpgs. Swtor in this is a special case though. Swtor's big draw is it's IP and it's story. We all know that. That means that single players star wars rpgs present a unique competition for it.

 

In the end though we know how this ends. Piss your players off enough and they leave. They will find something else to play. Bioware is going to loose players over 7.0. It's already started over the delay. I might be wrong about what they go play but it will be something else.

 

What is really sad about this is it didn't need to happen. Removing RNG from 6.0 would have been enough. People are going to play the new OP. It's a new OP. They aren't going to push through to MM but the new gearing system isn't going to change that. The small minority who play MM would still do it if the gearing system didn't change. It's a new OP.

 

On a side not about DA4, check around. It's farther along than it may seem. We actually know a good deal about it. However, they do keep loosing developers and that worries me.

[JakRoanin]

And truthfully? No, its not about making people feel bad for not agreeing with me... What I am tired of, is people having emotional tantrums on the forums over things that they haven't thought out yet.

 

And the purpose of a video game is escapism.

 

If you still want to talk feelings with me, I'll either rebuff you like I just did or start charging you by the hour.

 

1. So you provoke tantrums by being maliciously sarcastic and demeaning.

 

2. Yes it is, and when we can't experience that escapism because there's an issue in the system people will get cranky and you get cranky too.

 

3. I don't need to talk my feelings with you. I'm an INFJ woman talking about my feelings with a total stranger is like drinking gasoline. I do expect manners and common courtesy!

 

You Want Facts... I've given plenty here and on other threads on my situation and why I don't like this gearing. Yet you continue to lump everyone who has concerns into "you're lazy and stupid for not getting it."

 

I'm Finally on the PTS only took 4 dys to DL. I'm on Onderon right now with 318 gear. How is it for ordinary planet stuff. It's okay. Way too much endurance, not enough power, crit, or alacrity. But it's not quite as bad as I feared. However, the big test comes when I run FP's all day tomorrow!

 

All in all I want my crafted mods back.

[ZionHalcyon]

Yall are getting emotional and yet are only proving what I said was right. Your argument is that everyone should be able to get the best gear, even though in the game there isn't a need for you to get the best gear. My argument is Ops should get the best gear because that is how ops are designed, were designed, its what motivates progression raiders, and in the end the "best" only really benefits those of us trying to tackle the hardest content, while your side wants it "just because."

 

We're never going to see eye to eye, and if your whole argument against me is "you're a big meanie!" - then you don't have a logical argument. Period.

 

Besides - I haven't gone out of my way to truly be mean. I think some of you are a little too sensitive. Up front, my opinions are matter-of-fact. They ARE blunt. I don't beat around the bush and I get that can be off-putting for some people.

 

But it does NOT mean my opinion is invalid.

 

We all have our opinions. I respect all of yours, but disagree with them. And when I asked for a logical counter argument, all I got was called names and emotional arguments.

 

Not a winning formula for your side....

[ralphieceaser]

May i simply point out the irony between saying "video games are about escapism" and then demand a strict unfair hierarchical real life job like system where they use the term work and say things like "work for it or you dont deserve it"?

 

Especially when by "work" they only ever considering high end raiding to be "work",

not how many hours one might have spend farming mats or crafting,

not how many hours some might have spend doing flashpoints,

not how many hours they ve spend doing all MM chapters,

not how many months someone has spend doing dailies and weeklies,

oh no, the only relevant "work" is high end raiding. All other forms of "work" dont deserve best loot rewards, only their work is special enough to deserve the best loot.

 

Hence why i keep reminding people this is pure entitlement because some are unironically demanding to be treated special at the expense of every other group that enjoys the game or even "works", that is not simply unfair, its blatantly wrong!

Edited December 13, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[MystyqeofXev]

Does nobody remember the first expansion after Oricon? (2013? Makeb?)

 

I'm not sure they had put TC into the game, which meant if you raided (cough), you had to do DF / DP because, well that was about all there was "end-game". (EC / EV / TFB were not "level-scaled" as they are now).

 

So faced with regearing in a new and annoyingly RNG grindy gear system, doing content that you'd already been doing for years, and which was dumbed down because not standing in the glowy green crap

 

Yo, that's next level stuff. Then you combine that level of skill with using DCD's, interrupting whenever possible, AND focus firing adds?

 

Whoa. * mind blown * at the "skill" involved.

[JakRoanin]

Besides - I haven't gone out of my way to truly be mean. I think some of you are a little too sensitive. Up front, my opinions are matter-of-fact. They ARE blunt. I don't beat around the bush and I get that can be off-putting for some people.

 

But it does NOT mean my opinion is invalid.

 

We all have our opinions. I respect all of yours, but disagree with them. And when I asked for a logical counter argument, all I got was called names and emotional arguments.

 

Not a winning formula for your side....

 

Being rude isn't having a logical discussion.

 

I never said your opinion is invalid, and please feel free to quote me if you find me saying that. I'm a big girl I can take my medicine. I actually agree hardcore Raiders and PvPer's deserve Special Rewards, and I definitely believe you should get them faster than 'lil 'ol me. I just don't think I should be stuck with bottom of the barrel junk. It's literally bad for my health. Is that logical enough? Sorry my blood isn't green.

[Pietrastor]

 

The rate of endgame content release in this game is glacial in speed, and tiny in size. Raiders will be out of new content to play with most of the time. Which leaves gear grind as the only avenue for player retention for them if they're not interested in what the rest of what the game has to offer at endgame (not that much). It's not like people are really keen to grind gear for a particular Op the 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th time, but what else is there to do?

Well the problem is that ever since Ossus, the rate of ANY content release is glacial in speed, and tiny in size. We're even past the days of arguing whether raiders get too much (5 operations released in span of 2 years between 2013 and 2014) or story players get too much (KOTFEET era). NO ONE is satisfied these days and the chances that Bioware will suddenly start releasing more content are slim at best so it is evermoreso important that any kind of grinds, be it for gear or reputations or whatever should be accessible to majority of the (small) playerbase left. Because everyone is bored to death and at a brink of leaving the game with nothing to do, not even grindy grinds. Edited December 13, 2021 by Pietrastor

[ZionHalcyon]

Being rude isn't having a logical discussion.

 

I never said your opinion is invalid, and please feel free to quote me if you find me saying that. I'm a big girl I can take my medicine. I actually agree hardcore Raiders and PvPer's deserve Special Rewards, and I definitely believe you should get them faster than 'lil 'ol me. I just don't think I should be stuck with bottom of the barrel junk. It's literally bad for my health. Is that logical enough? Sorry my blood isn't green.

 

Ok, so walk this back a second. I think at least you are providing a better take on your perspective finally.

 

Why do you think you will be stuck with bottom of the barrel junk?

 

My understanding is that as you level, you will be able to gain rating-appropriate gear along the way. And once you hit end-game, you can level your way up to 318 gear just by doing whatever activities you fancy, and the challenges of the game are balanced around 318 at max level.

 

Comparatively, that would be like me tackling a particular op with gear at-level, which is how it is supposed to be.

 

When I think bottom of the barrel, I am thinking of something like the game calibrated to rating 318, but you have rating 280 armor and have NO way to get 318 rating armor BUT to do Ops.

 

If THAT were the system, I would 10000000% agree with you.

 

But that's not the case - at least that is not how the devs explained it.

 

So enlighten me - being totally sincere here. How is what you are getting "bottom of the barrel"?

[Gilrenna]

May i simply point out the irony between saying "video games are about escapism" and then demand a strict unfair hierarchical real life job like system where they use the term work and say things like "work for it or you dont deserve it"?

 

Especially when by "work" they only ever considering high end raiding to be "work",

not how many hours one might have spend farming mats or crafting,

not how many hours some might have spend doing flashpoints,

not how many hours they ve spend doing all MM chapters,

not how many months someone has spend doing dailies and weeklies,

oh no, the only relevant "work" is high end raiding. All other forms of "work" dont deserve best loot rewards, only their work is special enough to deserve the best loot.

 

Hence why i keep reminding people this is pure entitlement because some are unironically demanding to be treated special at the expense of every other group that enjoys the game or even "works", that is not simply unfair, its blatantly wrong!

 

Yeah, there are so many more activities in the game than NiM ops. That's kind of a small section of the overall game. I consider all of those other activities to be equally worth rewarding. I'm nervous how the static green gear is going to feel playing FPs, MMs, SM ops, etc. I don't want to lose all my current gear customization because what I have now lets me perform the way I want to - above average for most game activities. I don't have to slog through anything. That's my preference. It makes playing my alts more enjoyable because I can go quickly through activities like dailies and FPs. I don't want to lose all that.

[ceryxp]

And when I asked for a logical counter argument, all I got was called names and emotional arguments.

 

And I gave you a logical rebuttal in which I did not once resort to ad hominem, and you -- nothing. Crickets.

 

All throughout your argument has been consistent, but it consists solely of: I need incentive to do this content. And that is fine. That is your opinion. But not one of us has to agree with or accept that it is a valid reason to screw over solo players. And this does screw over solo players because of how radical a departure 7.0's itemization will be from both what we have had for the last five years, as well as any other itemization scheme that we have had throughout the life of this game.

 

Multiple times you have misrepresented itemization for solo players in 7.0, but whenever anyone counters that with a logical response that addresses your misrepresentation you have ignored that response in favour of continuing to misrepresent 7.0's itemization.

 

You say that you want logical responses, but you do not. You respond to and feed the emotional responses because it helps your narrative.

 

My time on these forums is coming to an end because I chose to stop paying to play this game over the decisions BW has made for 7.0. You chose to come back due to those decisions. Both of us made our decision based upon the information we have been fed by BW and not because we have actually played the content. Neither of us is right in our decision except for as it pertains to ourself. This will be the last time I comment on this matter as it is quite clear that any discussion between us on these forums is inconsequential. BW has made their decision and rarely do they ever change their minds. Not, of course, until the damage has already been done. So further discussion is irrelevant. Not one of us here is going to change your mind or convince you that your need for incentive does not have to come with a dramatic reduction in the solo player experience. Neither are we going to accept that your need for incentive is justification to limit our experience.

 

We are at an impasse and BW -- well BW just does not care.

[ZionHalcyon]

And I gave you a logical rebuttal in which I did not once resort to ad hominem, and you -- nothing. Crickets.

 

All throughout your argument has been consistent, but it consists solely of: I need incentive to do this content. And that is fine. That is your opinion. But not one of us has to agree with or accept that it is a valid reason to screw over solo players. And this does screw over solo players because of how radical a departure 7.0's itemization will be from both what we have had for the last five years, as well as any other itemization scheme that we have had throughout the life of this game.

 

Multiple times you have misrepresented itemization for solo players in 7.0, but whenever anyone counters that with a logical response that addresses your misrepresentation you have ignored that response in favour of continuing to misrepresent 7.0's itemization.

 

You say that you want logical responses, but you do not. You respond to and feed the emotional responses because it helps your narrative.

 

My time on these forums is coming to an end because I chose to stop paying to play this game over the decisions BW has made for 7.0. You chose to come back due to those decisions. Both of us made our decision based upon the information we have been fed by BW and not because we have actually played the content. Neither of us is right in our decision except for as it pertains to ourself. This will be the last time I comment on this matter as it is quite clear that any discussion between us on these forums is inconsequential. BW has made their decision and rarely do they ever change their minds. Not, of course, until the damage has already been done. So further discussion is irrelevant. Not one of us here is going to change your mind or convince you that your need for incentive does not have to come with a dramatic reduction in the solo player experience. Neither are we going to accept that your need for incentive is justification to limit our experience.

 

We are at an impasse and BW -- well BW just does not care.

 

 

Just to the point, I can logically back up my point and have. Progression raiders raid for gear progression. When BioWare killed Ops gear progression in 6.0, all the hardcore raiders left. So that's a factual data point for you from my side. Only fair I be held to the same standard I ask for; on that we agree.

[Ghost_Spectre]

So with all that in mind it should become pretty clear that this behavior is pure unjustified entitlement because sadly due to how they ve been treated in other and older mmorpgs, they believe raiders are special and more important than any other pillar of the game, and that is simply wrong and should be fixed by making all content have a path to max gear rating allowing everyone to enjoy power progression via the content they enjoy doing!

 

The solution is simple. Make the highest rated armor available to all players through flash points and Operations regardless of rating where tokens are earned to get the gear. This is highly effective in FFXIV where you get 515 gear and when you go from from regular to hard to extreme, you earn special tokens that allow you to exchange said gear to higher rated level. Players can gear up completely in a couple weeks to second highest rated 525 (until Endwalker launched). Then they were geared for highest dungeons in the game. It is a fair and balanced system that rewards players for participating. Not limited to those who do Extreme (NIM) dungeons or 8 to 24 man Savage raid/trials. The latter dungeons drop 535 gear available to all who are geared for these with 525 & Relic weapons (if they achieved them).

 

Here in SWTOR, no one is going to take an under-geared player into a NIM Op regardless even if they know the mechanics like the back of their hand. This might happen with clan members, but PuGs? Not a chance. All everyone focuses on gear check for the "Gear Rating Level." One could have the highest available gear and still not know how to fight a NIM dungeon, it is players like this who've been carried through or paid for the opportunity to get said gear. It happens in Blade & Soul, and I'm sure it happens in this game. These kind of Ops/Raids/Trials always breed the opportunity for players to earn monies for themselves or guild/clans. It's the nature of the beast.

[Toraak]

You are forgetting, this isnt 3.0, game has changed a lot since then and Swtor raids do not have that many bosses.

 

The design you are referring too mainly appears in games that have a lot of bosses such as WoW with 10-12 boss raids, and even then, world first shows 8-9/10 bosses are killable week one with gear that is very FAAAAR from best, and even when the last boss dies they are yet again very far from having bis gear because it is still week 2-3 by that time.

 

Swtor raids have always been easier than WoW or ff14, so I am having very strong doubts as that it was even the case, because dont confuse bad play with something being mathematically impossible, for something to be mathematically impossible mechanics have to be performed flawlessly and dps need to perform well.

 

Keep in mind in 7.0 dps performance of others is public, so dps meters will very well show if someone is lacking, though sadly more often than not it will be a few people moaning about dps being low when the group wiped at 30% cuz half the raid failed to do mechanics properly, these people should instantly be ignored and never listened to because clearly they dont understand how raiding works.

 

I understand what you are talking about, I just have very strong doubts that bioware would ever go there(though with recent decisions) or more importantly even be able to tune things so perfectly to achieve that.

 

But will those DPS numbers be public? If someone doesn't turn on the combat logging do we know for a fact that will show?

 

All I heard was there group combat logging, but no other details. If it means they still need to have Combat logs turned on you may not see what they are pulling.

[JakRoanin]

Ok, so walk this back a second. I think at least you are providing a better take on your perspective finally.

 

Why do you think you will be stuck with bottom of the barrel junk?

 

My understanding is that as you level, you will be able to gain rating-appropriate gear along the way. And once you hit end-game, you can level your way up to 318 gear just by doing whatever activities you fancy, and the challenges of the game are balanced around 318 at max level.

 

So enlighten me - being totally sincere here. How is what you are getting "bottom of the barrel"?

 

I didn't know matching your sarcasm suddenly made me logical. Yay Me!

 

Okay, maybe this went over your head because your mind is filled with the noise of a screaming toddler, but this is my and other perfectly rational people who happen to suffer from pesky emotions problem...

 

Like I said three or four posts ago the 318 is not good for DPS or healers for that matter. It's too endurance heavy, too little Power, too little Alacrity, too little Accuracy. And we won't be able to adjust any of it until the ceiling level raises to 334 When will this happen? BioWare doesn't want to tell, probably because they don't know!

 

But hey if you tank, Yay you!

 

Now appease my curiosity... why can't I look froward to progressing to, 318 quality and then 318 quality, and then 318 quality with better optimization, because that's not going to happen. What's going to happen is this... 318, 320, 322, 324, 326, 328, 330, 334 with no clarity on time between each ceiling is raised. With no way to change stats.

 

Oh and for the record some of us story player like World Bosses. So more stat optimization is nice.

 

Keep your higher numbers let me change the stats to play how my DPS'ers are supposed to.

Edited December 13, 2021 by JakRoanin

[Toraak]

I didn't know matching your sarcasm suddenly made me logical. Yay Me!

 

Okay, maybe this went over your head because your mind is filled with the noise of a screaming toddler, but this is my and other perfectly rational people who happen to suffer from pesky emotions problem...

 

Like I said three or four posts ago the 318 is not good for DPS or healers for that matter. It's too endurance heavy, too little Power, too little Alacrity, too little Accuracy. And we won't be able to adjust any of it until the ceiling level raises to 334 When will this happen? BioWare doesn't want to tell, probably because they don't know!

 

But hey if you tank, Yay you!

 

Now appease my curiosity... why can't I look froward to progressing to, 318 quality and then 318 quality, and then 318 quality with better optimization, because that's not going to happen. What's going to happen is this... 318, 320, 322, 324, 326, 328, 330, 334 with no clarity on time between each ceiling is raised. With no way to change stats.

 

Oh and for the record some of us story player like World Bosses. So more stat optimization is nice.

 

Keep your higher numbers let me change the stats to play how my DPS'ers are supposed to.

 

Just so you know, The 318 from Vet FP's had the same stats as the 318 on the PTS. So just because someone has 318 doesn't mean it's optimized better.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Toraak