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The Real Division in the Star Wars Fandom


EAFSAMWISE
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Having studied and looked in detail at discussions of Star Wars from multiple angles, I've come to the conclusion that there is one major underpinning that divides the Star Wars fanbase in terms of what it expects: Namely, the issue of love and relationships and how valuable those things are or aren't.

 

1) First, there is the "traditional" view of Star Wars in terms of the metaphysics as partially laid out by George Lucas, that the Jedi code is ultimately correct on an objective level within the universe of Star Wars. Thus Anakin's relationship with Padme was therefore inherently wrong and Luke is seen as surpassing this by not following in his father's footsteps (despite failing in other ways and of course this is the new "canon" imposed by Disney that not all of us accept). George Lucas himself even stated his objection to Luke having a spouse, on the grounds that it would go "against Jedi teachings" and that in the Star Wars world, Jedi teachings are inherently the "good side." This is the "official" and "established" standard of morality that both Lucas and his successors have ultimately accepted. However, many fans were understandably upset with these underpinnings and believed that Luke ultimately got a "raw deal" in the end compared to other characters after all three movies of the Original Trilogy had just come out by the 80s.

2) Thus, many Legends authors (their efforts culminating ultimately in games like Kotor and Swtor) sought to rectify this by in fact asserting an underlying notion woven throughout much of their literature and to an extent their games that Love is in fact not a wrong thing in itself but it's how one goes about Loving others and forming relationships with them. Part of this was an underlying dissatisfaction with the Buddhist undertone taken in the Star Wars universe that love and attachments are inherently wrong or are a distraction from true inner peace which comes from transcending ones need for these things. Obviously most regular people and fans don't agree with or find the monastic Buddhist, emotionless mentality to be an appealing one and so it almost seems like Legends authors were bringing a general critique to the Jedi code and saying it was too extreme. However Lucas and those in charge felt that this created a contradiction in what he sought to create from the beginning, which aside from sheer greed probably also played a role in him screwing over those who'd made the Legends material and their fanbase. This understandably angered a lot of fans.

 

And thus, this is the ultimate source of tension between the members and different factions of the Star Wars fanbase: those who accept Lucas' pseudo-Buddhist, emotionless metaphysics within the Star Wars universe, and those who ultimately seek to shake their fist (perhaps rightly so) at the "powers that be" in this fictional universe because of the way it seemed to work and that the nature of love (both romantically and otherwise) in this universe makes it unnecessary or even dangerous and Anakin's fall is seen as the ultimate testament to it. **This**, I would say, is in turn why many fans seem to like Kreia in Kotor 2 and see her as almost a sort of "good villain." They realize the metaphysics of the Star Wars universe, decide they find that universe interesting, but that its potential can only be realized by villifying or at least critiquing the ideals and sides (the Force and Jedi Code) which Lucas and his successors have sought to assert as "good" and to turn this notion on its head or see it in a more nuanced way.

Edited by EAFSAMWISE
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That is why the original moves were so terrible, the star wars universe is great, the lore, the characters, the powers of sith and jedi can manifest with enough knowledge, even the rule of two which I dislike as a system has a lot of great material and details which would create a great show.

 

But instead all the movies have been barely shown the greatness of star wars lore, obviously with a focus on big audiences they want simpler movies but holy **** you have so many cool sith powers you could show, so many old sith lord tombs you could try show, nope instead we have the usual generic big bad vs big good fight, le typical look mom spaceships are shooting on each other

 

It doesnt help that the originals were made in an era of very simple people were movies were mostly propaganda hence the typical ultra big bad vs le ultra goody 2 shoes character, nuance was rarely ever a thing back then, the prequels and sequels tried to add a bit of nuance and no only did they get a backlash because gamers TM see everything nuanced as "politics" they kept the original star wars mentality of making a movie with barely any star wars lore, they are really making a generic space film for kids to watch.

 

I mean, they made a ton of star wars movies but none explained or even voiced the Sith or Jedi code, that is why I never really care about movies because all the great details and lore are in games and books.

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Can't say I really agree with this as the source of the divide.

 

Most fans (even the fairly hardcode) don't really care about the Buddhist influence. And GL successors don't entirely follow this pattern either. In fact, they make a point (ex. in TCW and Rebels) of showing how the "Buddhist" Jedi lost their way and were destroyed by their own arrogance and hypocrisy. They sacrificed compassion to the alter of expedience. If they actually cared about individual people, the clone wars would likely have ended very differently.

 

In regards to love in particular, this is another point that has hardly divided the fan base and we see many examples of both ideologies even from the same creators

Ex. Kanan and Hera were not portrayed as an unhealthy relationship at all and that was under Dave Filoni, largely considered the "heir" of GL. On the other hand, we see Ahsoka share the same caution about attachments during The Mandalorian. Same guy behind it.

 

Neither of these has sparked controversy. It is a part of individual characters and their stories and makes perfect sense in both cases.

 

 

It doesnt help that the originals were made in an era of very simple people were movies were mostly propaganda hence the typical ultra big bad vs le ultra goody 2 shoes character, nuance was rarely ever a thing back then, the prequels and sequels tried to add a bit of nuance and no only did they get a backlash because gamers TM see everything nuanced as "politics" they kept the original star wars mentality of making a movie with barely any star wars lore, they are really making a generic space film for kids to watch.

.

 

The issues people had with the sequels had nothing to do with nuance, but characters who were not consistent or respectful to what was already established, including the already established lore (see Rey Mary Sue learning the force in a few hours) and considering the current climate (and KK's very strong and public political views), to say that those movies were not motivated by politics is just pure insanity.

 

I also can't grasp the argument for the PT either. Keep in mind, many of the people complaining about the PT also love TCW, the latter of which has far more nuance than the PT or OT. If "too much nuance" as a problem were to logically follow, then TCW would get the same hate. It doesn't.

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The issues people had with the sequels had nothing to do with nuance, but characters who were not consistent or respectful to what was already established, including the already established lore (see Rey Mary Sue learning the force in a few hours) and considering the current climate (and KK's very strong and public political views), to say that those movies were not motivated by politics is just pure insanity.

 

I also can't grasp the argument for the PT either. Keep in mind, many of the people complaining about the PT also love TCW, the latter of which has far more nuance than the PT or OT. If "too much nuance" as a problem were to logically follow, then TCW would get the same hate. It doesn't.

None of the movies ever felt consistent with star wars lore though, we have thousand year old sith spirits, we have seem some extremely powerful abilities, we know of force transfer which was heavily shown in the darth bane trilogy, we know the power that can be access through the force.

 

And what we get in the movies? Force pushes, lightning and lightsaber fights, it is like children level force powers, hell they dont even teach the godamn jedi or sith code in a star wars movie, like that is absolutely absurd! The movies, all of them are nothing like star wars.

 

Also regarding TCW i would say the fact that it was a series rather than a movie makes a huge difference, not only tv series have to have nuance due to the length of their story and unlike the OT, it was made in a period were tv series and movies were more than just brain dead big bad vs goody 2 shoes.

 

I understand that you see Rey as somekind of big bad stronk feminist icon that was only there because she was a woman but for me, she was just a woman force user, her aptitude with the force could be explained by being stupildy overpowered genius(maybe even the will of the force was behind her) aka what we call bad writing, or like you said, not consistent of established lore. The thing is for me Rey learning force powers on the fly is just as bad as seeing jedi masters and Sith lords just use pathetic child level force powers when we know the levels

 

And people can argue that on x specific occasion they couldnt use the power but that doesnt really matter because it was clear the directors did not even think about those grander powers and isntead were making a children's space battle movie with some light sabers, telekinetics and lightning spam.

 

It is all quite disgusting from my perspective when i ve read comics, books and plays star wars games.

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It doesnt help that the originals were made in an era of very simple people were movies were mostly propaganda hence the typical ultra big bad vs le ultra goody 2 shoes character, nuance was rarely ever a thing back then, the prequels and sequels tried to add a bit of nuance and no only did they get a backlash because gamers TM see everything nuanced as "politics" they kept the original star wars mentality of making a movie with barely any star wars lore, they are really making a generic space film for kids to watch.

 

If you really think there was no nuisance or shades of grey in movies in the 70s...well you need to watch more movies. Go watch Taxi Driver, One Flew Over the Cockoo's Nest, The Godfather....I could go on. Star Wars started as a fairytale in space for kids. That's why it is what it is.

 

The Prequels got backlash because the dialogue, plot, CGI, etc were bad. Nuance had nothing to do with it.

 

There was a lot of good stuff in the EU like the Thrawn Trilogy, Old Republic, etc. and it's all better than the Prequels. The Sequels are pretty bad as well. The Mandalorian is really good at least.

 

As to the real divide in the fandom, honestly age is one of them (OT folks vs Prequel-usually folks defending the Prequels grew up with them) and the other big one is how the fan feels about the Disney stuff.

Edited by divinecynic
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None of the movies ever felt consistent with star wars lore though, we have thousand year old sith spirits, we have seem some extremely powerful abilities, we know of force transfer which was heavily shown in the darth bane trilogy, we know the power that can be access through the force.

 

And what we get in the movies? Force pushes, lightning and lightsaber fights, it is like children level force powers, hell they dont even teach the godamn jedi or sith code in a star wars movie, like that is absolutely absurd! The movies, all of them are nothing like star wars.

 

Also regarding TCW i would say the fact that it was a series rather than a movie makes a huge difference, not only tv series have to have nuance due to the length of their story and unlike the OT, it was made in a period were tv series and movies were more than just brain dead big bad vs goody 2 shoes.

 

I understand that you see Rey as somekind of big bad stronk feminist icon that was only there because she was a woman but for me, she was just a woman force user, her aptitude with the force could be explained by being stupildy overpowered genius(maybe even the will of the force was behind her) aka what we call bad writing, or like you said, not consistent of established lore. The thing is for me Rey learning force powers on the fly is just as bad as seeing jedi masters and Sith lords just use pathetic child level force powers when we know the levels

 

And people can argue that on x specific occasion they couldnt use the power but that doesnt really matter because it was clear the directors did not even think about those grander powers and isntead were making a children's space battle movie with some light sabers, telekinetics and lightning spam.

 

It is all quite disgusting from my perspective when i ve read comics, books and plays star wars games.

 

What you are comparing is old EU "author oneupmanship" with what was in the top level canon (remember there were multiple levels of canon back then)

 

As far was GL and company were concerned, the books, comics and games were just fan fics. And let's face it, the crazy overpowered nature of many of those characters is a classic from fan fiction (as fun as it can be sometimes, it's still a bit ludicrous). And when Disney took over, all of this got removed from canon completely.

 

All those crazy OP Sith Lords and Jedi Masters? Never existed. Even before Disney, they were not even in the picture. (notice how when mining the old EU for stories, Filoni and friends pick people like Thrawn, who is not a stupid OP FU, but a character who is both interesting and scary without the flashiness.)

 

I'm glad they've done this personally. Otherwise we'd just end up with more Vitiates/Valkorians who are fun in small doses, but get really stale over time due to real character development being sacrificed to cinematics

 

Or put another way, Star Wars is not and was never intended to be a power fantasy.

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I'm glad they've done this personally. Otherwise we'd just end up with more Vitiates/Valkorians who are fun in small doses, but get really stale over time due to real character development being sacrificed to cinematics

 

Or put another way, Star Wars is not and was never intended to be a power fantasy.

 

Definitely your preference there, everyone is free to like what they like which is why I said i dislike all the movies, star wars for me is swtor, the books like the darth bane trilogy and swtor novels and older comics, that is what made star wars interesting to me, not the movies who are just generic flashy space fights with barely any depth. Even for the PT most of the interesting parts and depth came from reading the darth plagueis novel and knowing what was happening during the movie but was not being shown.

 

What we see in movies doesnt feel very star warsy after you experience actually interesting characters and Jedi vs Sith plots from.

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Some of the Sith powers in the novels wouldn't transfer over well to movies. For an example the transfer Bane does when he takes over his apprentice so he can live forever. While in theory this may be a cool ability to some, it really wouldn't work well on screen. This ability would basically be as bad as how Rey learns how to use Mind Trick without being taught the ability, and without an actual knowledge of the ability.
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I'm glad they've done this personally. Otherwise we'd just end up with more Vitiates/Valkorians who are fun in small doses, but get really stale over time due to real character development being sacrificed to cinematics

 

Or put another way, Star Wars is not and was never intended to be a power fantasy.

 

To be fair, most fans aren't necessarily upset that some of the stories from Legends are being "changed" in themselves. Rogue One did pretty well for example and I've heard nobody complain about how it displaced the earlier version in Legends of what happened to enable the Rebels to get the stolen Death Star plans. Most people who've actually watched the shows also have little to no issue with TCW or Rebels.

 

But the Sequel Trilogy in particular is unpopular because it was badly written. If anything, they seemed to be taking queues from the ridiculously overpowered types of Force-wielding characters in Legends and tried to invent a new one. That's essentially what Rey was, with her Mary Sue act. She and Kylo kept having all these powers **at random** with little to no explanation except "da Force." This didn't mean she was cast as perfect the whole time, to be fair (she struggled and was in fact looking for meaning which she didn't already have). But it seemed like the entire time she was basically just "correct" in what she did and everyone else was ultimately wrong and she either did what she had to in order to make people believe her or she had to kill them because they tried to use or oppose her for dangerous ends. The entire trilogy is just her "discovering herself" and realizing how right her path is and how everyone else including her needs to realize that. That is ultimately why people didn't necessarily like the way in which her character was developed. There was also the lack of a proper arc for Finn and the fact that Lando Calrissian was basically sidelined and just brought in as a prop for Episode 9 (if I had written The Last Jedi, I would've at least had Lando appear at the Canto Bight casino since he IS a gambler and could perhaps be connected with the "code-breaker" that they were trying to get in touch with; I also would've retconned it so that Finn turned out to have been a son Lando had that was taken from him since the First Order's stormtroopers were in fact kidnapped at infancy or very young from families--it would've been perfect, but alas it wasn't meant to be, b/c Rian Johnson had to ********** on the whole thing).

 

That being said, most people who still keep up with and have given Disney's projects a "fair hearing" are actually okay with them except for and unless the Sequel Trilogy comes into play, which is what it really comes down to for most of us.

Edited by EAFSAMWISE
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That being said, most people who still keep up with and have given Disney's projects a "fair hearing" are actually okay with them except for and unless the Sequel Trilogy comes into play, which is what it really comes down to for most of us.

 

Agreed, though Solo does also get some well deserved criticism and the High Republic BS gets openly mocked by most I've heard (which isn't many since most don't even know or care about it)

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Agreed, though Solo does also get some well deserved criticism and the High Republic BS gets openly mocked by most I've heard (which isn't many since most don't even know or care about it)

 

Yeah that's about accurate. I personally had no issue with Solo but I could see it being an acquired taste due to the re-casting of iconic characters and people feeling like having a back-story movie for Solo partly ruins the surprise in A New Hope that shows him to be more than he first appears (i.e. the "rough person with a heart of gold").

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Yeah that's about accurate. I personally had no issue with Solo but I could see it being an acquired taste due to the re-casting of iconic characters and people feeling like having a back-story movie for Solo partly ruins the surprise in A New Hope that shows him to be more than he first appears (i.e. the "rough person with a heart of gold").

 

I had no problem with the concept, just the implementation left a lot to be desired

 

On the silver lining side, it is probably a lot of the reason that SW has largely moved to the series format, which I think is a much better way to tell star wars stories with all the depth they deserve

Edited by MadDutchman
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  • 2 months later...

Star wars is romeo and juliet retold in a galaxy far far away. All assertions otherwise are belied by the fact that white plastic models in the 70s were completely unseen due to the sweeping romantic story underlying the destiny of all who reach for it.

 

I think the spellchecker is revealing, it doesn't care if romeo is capitalized, but does it juliet is not.

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  • 4 months later...
I had no problem with the concept, just the implementation left a lot to be desired

 

On the silver lining side, it is probably a lot of the reason that SW has largely moved to the series format, which I think is a much better way to tell star wars stories with all the depth they deserve

 

I believe you're on to something. In the Expanded Universe there were a few hundred novels, most of which were in a series or trilogy, so someone in Disney caught onto the pattern that was working (thank you Mr. Filoni). I think it's laughable that Lucasfilm Ltd. had a good thing going putting out novel after novel, expanding more and more story, more new characters that every fan loved... the authors knew how to make the story (even with continuity errors I feel they did a fantastic job), and all Disney had to do was resume; but instead they decided to start over. Directors for reported upcoming films are saying expanding the Skywalker Saga would make for a very short story (reminder: hundreds of novels pre-Disney), and I read about this and dread that I may one day soon end up joining my Dad who declared he'd seen his last Star Wars movie after episode vii.

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I believe you're on to something. In the Expanded Universe there were a few hundred novels, most of which were in a series or trilogy, so someone in Disney caught onto the pattern that was working (thank you Mr. Filoni). I think it's laughable that Lucasfilm Ltd. had a good thing going putting out novel after novel, expanding more and more story, more new characters that every fan loved... the authors knew how to make the story (even with continuity errors I feel they did a fantastic job), and all Disney had to do was resume; but instead they decided to start over. Directors for reported upcoming films are saying expanding the Skywalker Saga would make for a very short story (reminder: hundreds of novels pre-Disney), and I read about this and dread that I may one day soon end up joining my Dad who declared he'd seen his last Star Wars movie after episode vii.

 

They didn't even need to resume. They just had to take those books, use the best parts, and fix up the bad, due to hindsight being 20/20!

 

They would've even been able to change some of those characters easily for the whole "We want strong female heroes!" for Corran, for example.

 

That said, with Leia, Mara, Jaina Solo coming to mind, it's not like legends wasn't lacking awesome powerful female characters.

 

Hell, while I thought the story was bad for the sequels, I liked the idea of Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter and then taking the name of Skywalker. Mix that in with the reimagined legends! She could've replaced clone Palpatine easily for example (story would play out differently, but it's something).

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Without reading the rest of the comments, all of the Old Republic EU is good, post episode 6 EU is crap

the new disney crap is as bad as the post episode 6 eu, but for different reasons

 

 

in all cases the true star wars ends at episode 6

Edited by Kaedusz
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  • 2 weeks later...
They didn't even need to resume. They just had to take those books, use the best parts, and fix up the bad, due to hindsight being 20/20!

 

They would've even been able to change some of those characters easily for the whole "We want strong female heroes!" for Corran, for example.

 

That said, with Leia, Mara, Jaina Solo coming to mind, it's not like legends wasn't lacking awesome powerful female characters.

 

Hell, while I thought the story was bad for the sequels, I liked the idea of Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter and then taking the name of Skywalker. Mix that in with the reimagined legends! She could've replaced clone Palpatine easily for example (story would play out differently, but it's something).

 

I like your list. Might as well keep the list going: Nomi Sunrider (captured in SWTOR with the noetikons), Darth Zannah; dozens of secondary female characters were anything but weak, like Winter Celchu; Aurra Sing made it into Clone Wars, even "newer" characters like Vestara Kai. There's a reason these EU characters (especially female ones) have shown up in Celebrations & conventions, and its not because those characters sucked!! :rolleyes:

 

I have more than half a mind to say these movie makers care more about making movies than joining the "family" of Star Wars! Being hired doesn't make you a fan, and if you're not a real fan (not just excited because you get to have a SW movie with your name on it), please go make different movies; I'd rather go without than know another just-because-you-can-make-it episode comes out! Tell the dang story! Like I have said before, someone started it for you; I really don't think they'll mind you continuing to fill gaps (they already loved it, and you can still draw more fans), developing already-loved characters (you bought the rights for Pete's sake), even mildly redefining them like the poster before me suggested (we might still gripe about it, but if we can see the character we came to love in the character you present, we'll get over it... the characters in the sequels we got felt more like severe redefining). A columnist recently had the gall to suggest to fans-since-childhood like me that maybe its time to let it all go with all the "change" happening... I would think you'd want to add to the fanbase, not rotate people through; how's that ever going to be successful? :confused:

 

I apologize for the extra rant (believe me, I have more). If you bothered to read all of this, you're probably amazing! :jawa_cool:

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I think what the Jedi were originally going for was wrong in terms of attachment.

Attachment is necessary in humans in infancy in order to be healthy psychologically.

Studies have been done in orphanages back in the day that demonstate this quite clearly.

 

However - what Anakin and Padme had was possessive, not really a good loving relationship.

Witness paranoia on the part of Anakin who was overly jealous when Obi-Wan showed up - he didn't trust Padme enough to know that she would not cheat on him.

Although most of this wasn't his fault - he did not have role models to show him what couples should be growing up - he was a slave, and a child of a single parent with no spouse, and his Jedi Teachers at the academy did not teach their students on how to form Healthy attachments or relationships.

 

What was done with Rey in terms of her possessing knowledge on how to do certain things without being taught - is not so much of a mystery to those who are fans of the Old Republic and the Old time Sith in novels and comics - as we are familiar with Dark Side users who did much the same thing (i.e. Tenebrae as a child of 12 etc, etc). However, the movies do NOT explain this to the audience. What I personally don't like is the fact that they replaced good material available from what they deemed "legends" and replacing that with a character they did not go into depth enough with. Mara Jade would have been a Very strong female character and a perfect partner for Luke. Destroying Luke's character by having him attempt to kill ben after a nightmare - after going so far to redeem his father, this was against his character. Having him close himself off from the world - that is why I did NOT like "the Last Jedi", and for me, Legends are Canon. Not the Mouse-house version.

Edited by Shayddow
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  • 1 month later...

I'm on LinkedIn, and I posted a couple of rants related to this topic, one about the sequel trilogy here, and later for an article published about Mr. Waititi's upcoming work with "new material" I wrote this.

It's all on LinkedIn; it's not a cyberwhatever trap or ploy to ask for money, just my rants.

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Without reading the rest of the comments, all of the Old Republic EU is good, post episode 6 EU is crap

the new disney crap is as bad as the post episode 6 eu, but for different reasons

 

 

in all cases the true star wars ends at episode 6

 

I agree with you. I am waiting for them to redact the crap that they plastered the Star Wars name on. Rey was a caricature of a fairy princess without the wings if you really think about it. She had magic not the force, she just waved her hands around and poof things happened. She knew how to use complex machines without any type of introduction. Example, the Millennium Flacon, would be exactly as though one of us lay people were able to jump into an f-18 and just knowing magically how to fly it. :rolleyes:. This is just one of the MAJOR idiotic issues not to mention every other problem with the movies and that is just the start through to the "I am a Skywalker" ok does that mean I can say " I am Wonder Woman" Saying it doesn't make it true, the only thing it does say is some moron realized too late that they had killed off all the Skywalkers and left a stupid Palapatine fairy princess twit alive. Thus negating the first 6 wonderful movies and leaving their 3 very mediocre to down right boring movies in their wake. :eek:

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Hey now, isn't the whole point of the sequel trilogy, to destroy the previous six movies and have fans go "You had a road map to make awesome movies and shows with the books and you threw them all away!"

 

All those books, they had the ability to hind sight it into something even better.

 

Though, honestly, I think some of the fans would've whined anyways. Really. Be honest, how many Star Wars fans here would've whined and whined about how they recast Luke, Leia and Han, if they did take it from just after RotJ?

 

Soooooo many. I thought they should've recast the parts, and people whined on that idea. :p Actors get old and die, doesn't mean the character they played has to grow old and die too.

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Though, honestly, I think some of the fans would've whined anyways. Really. Be honest, how many Star Wars fans here would've whined and whined about how they recast Luke, Leia and Han, if they did take it from just after RotJ?

 

Soooooo many. I thought they should've recast the parts, and people whined on that idea. :p Actors get old and die, doesn't mean the character they played has to grow old and die too.

 

That's true; they totally minimized all Leia could have been (nothing against Carey Fisher).

 

I do think as well there would have been whining (me included), but I would have swallowed the pill at some point as long as they made a good story (screw the special effects)

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The division is whether you believe in the Founder of Lucasfilm, George Lucas and follow his work to the letter

 

Lucas Loyalists

George Lucas Loyalists

and everybody else

 

LL

GLL

 

george's words:

 

George Lucas' Advice

413,425 views

Apr 5, 2011

 

 

My thread on Lucas' work, there's an interview with George at the end of the video in the follow thread:

www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=1008785

Edited by Falensawino
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