What Is The Design Philosophy Behind Removing "Sleep Dart" from Operatives?

[arunav]

I'm assuming the other stealth class, Shadow/Assassin, will also likely lose "Mind Maze".

 

It's been a staple of the stealth classes since launch to be able to sleep an enemy mob temporarily. This is especially useful in solo content like heroics or on leveling planets, and occasionally in group content like FPs to sneak by an enemy group. In PVP, it's been used against those defending objectives in 8v8 maps or while defending objectives to delay a cap, also since 1.0. I don't play ranked any longer, and can't comment on arenas well now, but presume it can be part of attempting to choose which player to focus first.

 

I'd say the sleep-style abilities are an "iconic" part of what makes up the 2 stealth classes. It allows stealth classes to pick and choose what their targets are once coming out of stealth, in a sense. This is in exchange for what other classes might be able to do better, like lots of quick AOE damage, or having better damage reduction.

 

While the general direction of class combat changes is becoming more clear, the removal of sleep dart is somewhat confusing. It's simply a very basic part of stealth class gameplay since 1.0.

 

Can some clarification be made on why it is being removed? Shouldn't Sleep Dart at least be a choice?

Edited August 25, 2021 by arunav

[timovdt]

I can only assume they target it because of pvp and dungeon runs there goal in there head being if we remove Important skill A and B, people will think its a intresting decision to pick between important skill A and B

 

+ Allot of the newer players in pvp get realy frustrated at sleep dart/mindhaze, considering they also forced you to pick between mad dash and reflect it seems they are going after all the skills the average potato idiot complains about

 

So you can bet other skills like that (vanguard aoe stun sorc bubble merc net) are prolly going to get targeted with 0 regard for balance in the game

 

Atleast be happy that operatives have so mutch utility that even with half of it removed you still have 3 times the ammount of it compared to sorc and vanguard who both will probebly get absolutly decimated bye this system change

[Elssha]

It can also be an attempt to nerf the innate utility of stealthers to allow for flashpoint skipping, and being able to do things more efficiently.

 

Hilariously, this will probably reignite the narrative that one of your classes needs to be a stealth now to farm flashpoints that some people feared would become the case back when they assumed we'd get all 4/8 open on all toons instead of having to pick 2. Taking away a stealther's ability to let others pass will just heighten those fears, and just further dumb down the game.

[arunav]

It can also be an attempt to nerf the innate utility of stealthers to allow for flashpoint skipping, and being able to do things more efficiently.

 

Hilariously, this will probably reignite the narrative that one of your classes needs to be a stealth now to farm flashpoints that some people feared would become the case back when they assumed we'd get all 4/8 open on all toons instead of having to pick 2. Taking away a stealther's ability to let others pass will just heighten those fears, and just further dumb down the game.

 

I'm not trying to make judgements on the changes - they are coming no matter what we think about the combat redesign effort and who these changes are intended for.

 

As someone who's played since launch (I'm assuming a lot of the people testing and giving feedback are like that, or have played for a long time), I'm trying to understand what BW is going for with the changes, and giving feedback that might retain what I think are core abilities in the various classes/specs so the changes don't affect what I enjoy about SWTOR's combat, and presumably many other veteran or newer players alike do as well.

 

I think there's room to do what BW is trying without making the changes so extreme to veterans that many do finally stop logging in, even if, anecdotally, most of us feel class design is mostly fine and only needs fine-tuning here and there.

 

Regarding stealth classes being prioritized as Combat Styles in 7.0 for FP runs: I've found this thinking to be odd and, frankly, silly. BW could easily just add stealth detection to lots of mobs in FPs, and, if they really had a problem with skipping a few mobs here and there in the past 9.5 years, would have done so. Same thing with getting on mounts in FPs and skipping over plenty of areas.

 

This is why it's confusing to me now that Sleep Dart is being removed. It doesn't seem to line up with the other changes they are making. For example, I was assuming at least 1 AOE ability for Operative would be gone, if trying to reduce abilities generally is a priority. Noxious Knives, the cone-attack AOE, isn't really that useful, nor is it iconic to the class. Why is that still there, but Sleep Dart isn't even an A-B-C option?

 

If trying to maintain the basic feel of stealth classes in making these changes, Sleep Dart and Mind Maze are essential abilities, and have been since launch/1.0. This is the type of change that will alienate not only veteran players, but some newer ones as well, since it differentiates stealth classes from others quite definitively in multiple game modes, solo and group, PVE and PVP.

 

I hope our feedback here counts for something, and BW is actually considering it.

Edited August 25, 2021 by arunav

[Galbsadi]

I hope our feedback here counts for something, and BW is actually considering it.

 

You and me both, friend.

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe they are.

 

This is the same BW who told me "maybe it'll magically work later" when their PTS was broken for me yesterday. (note: still broken, at least via Steam, as of this morning)

 

edit: also broken via direct download client. So the issue isn't Steam.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Galbsadi

[Elssha]

Regarding stealth classes being prioritized as Combat Styles in 7.0 for FP runs: I've found this thinking to be odd and, frankly, silly. BW could easily just add stealth detection to lots of mobs in FPs, and, if they really had a problem with skipping a few mobs here and there in the past 9.5 years, would have done so. Same thing with getting on mounts in FPs and skipping over plenty of areas.

 

I agree, and I've called the fears silly all over Reddit. I was just saying that this might make those that assumed/feared us getting all classes would result in pugs "forcing players to respec stealth" for run efficiency double down.

 

This is why it's confusing to me now that Sleep Dart is being removed. It doesn't seem to line up with the other changes they are making. For example, I was assuming at least 1 AOE ability for Operative would be gone, if trying to reduce abilities generally is a priority. Noxious Knives, the cone-attack AOE, isn't really that useful, nor is it iconic to the class. Why is that still there, but Sleep Dart isn't even an A-B-C option?

 

Someone else guessed it's a "people complained about this being annoying in PvP", and it feels like a possible cause to me as well. LOTS of players complain that PvP is bad because the time to kill is too long, and players that really know how to make the most of their toolkit are head and shoulders above those that don't. It's a very BW response to see that and go "okay, we'll just take their toys away" instead of "here, we've added a fun way to teach players in-game how to better use their kits!"

 

If trying to maintain the basic feel of stealth classes in making these changes, Sleep Dart and Mind Maze are essential abilities, and have been since launch/1.0. This is the type of change that will alienate not only veteran players, but some newer ones as well, since it differentiates stealth classes from others quite definitively in multiple game modes, solo and group, PVE and PVP.

 

I hope our feedback here counts for something, and BW is actually considering it.

 

I hope so too, but in the great scheme of things our feedback can make ripples, not change the course of the river. We might get sleep dart/mind trap (if one's gone, I assume the other will be, too) back, but movesare going away, etc.

 

[Omega]

My guess is its a PVP centric change. Point camping in Warzones can get frustrating for classes with no real stealth detection, and (having been on both sides of it) I don't consider dart camping to really be engaging game play.

 

Cool, I can chain mez two attackers and stall until my team arrives to take them out. But until they get there, I'm just chain sapping the poor opponents and they really can't do anything except pop their break and try to guess where I am. Is that good gameplay? Again, being on both sides of it, it feels bad to me either way. It also relegates Ops/Sins etc to baby sitting duty instead of going on the attack.

 

Do I agree with them straight up removing the functionality? No, I think they could have just nerfed it or added the functionality to something else. Maybe make it so the sap is tied to a Backstab option in one of the trees. So you can keep your sleepy-time, but at the cost of having to get into melee and using one of your best offensive CDs to use it. That way there's counterplay to it in PVP, but you still have it for taking NPCs out of the fight in PVE.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

My guess is its a PVP centric change. Point camping in Warzones can get frustrating for classes with no real stealth detection, and (having been on both sides of it) I don't consider dart camping to really be engaging game play.

 

Cool, I can chain mez two attackers and stall until my team arrives to take them out. But until they get there, I'm just chain sapping the poor opponents and they really can't do anything except pop their break and try to guess where I am. Is that good gameplay? Again, being on both sides of it, it feels bad to me either way. It also relegates Ops/Sins etc to baby sitting duty instead of going on the attack.

 

Do I agree with them straight up removing the functionality? No, I think they could have just nerfed it or added the functionality to something else. Maybe make it so the sap is tied to a Backstab option in one of the trees. So you can keep your sleepy-time, but at the cost of having to get into melee and using one of your best offensive CDs to use it. That way there's counterplay to it in PVP, but you still have it for taking NPCs out of the fight in PVE.

 

There's a simple solution to this. Keep the ability, but add a tag that says "Player Targets are Unaffected By This Ability". You keep the ability and it's immense PvE utility, but you remove the utility in PvP. Done.

[Medullah]

It seems to me they're really trying to cut back on CC abilities in general. Reducing stuns, slows and mezzes. I don't really like it all that much, but I guess I understand. If all things are equal, TTK should be lower in PvP.

 

It will be interesting to see if the existing Ops and Flashpoints that are reliant on stuns (Thinking of Dread Palace) now that they aren't a given for everyone.

[Kantor_omicron]

So, this is unsubscribe&delete for me. That was fine 10 years, but now game is ruined. BW you doing wrong thing. Bye.

[demotivator]

If this is not an oversight, it clearly shows they have no understanding of how their classes work.

 

Just an example, try to do the GenoHaradan Leader fight in Chapter II: Run for the Shadows, in vet or master. The only way I survived this was CCing one of the 2 hunter adds (the Leader is immune).

 

My point is that sleep is part of survivability of the class. Remove this and your class is now gimped.

[Gwena]

As someone who plays almost exclusively solo PvE, being able to sleep one mob (in order to reduce the incoming damage/etc) in a tough group while I deal with the others is very important to my Operative's survivability and ability to tackle difficult missions. I, too, would really like to know what Bioware's reasoning is for removing this ability.

 

I do realize that sleep dart may be problematic in PvP, but IMHO that is no excuse for entirely removing such an important ability altogether. I agree with a previous poster that suggested simply having sleep dart not work on player characters (or even just giving it a different effect), if it is that much of an issue.

 

Or if this is just about us having fewer abilities, might I suggest getting rid of, oh, say Noxious Knives instead?

[Athrulas]

It seems pretty clear they're targetting this change at flashpoint skips and PvP.

[arunav]

It seems pretty clear they're targetting this change at flashpoint skips and PvP.

 

Seems they forgot to put it in with the other PTS Operative skills.

 

Good! And some of the Guardian changes have been edited too. Maybe we can voice our concerns, constructively, and have a better outcome on any class specs where certain skills are a must for the basic feel of the spec. BW won't necessarily listen for every single spec, but we might influence their final decisions on some.

 

It's the best players can do with this situation. Skills are getting removed. Especially for the classes/specs you know well, politely explain to BW why those certain skills are essential ones for the spec, how they counter or play against PVE bosses or other players in WZs, why they add to the feel of playing that particular Star Wars archetype in combat, etc.

 

I still don't understand why BW is going this route with classes, instead of adjusting some skills and mostly removing 6.0 tacticals and set bonuses especially, to achieve better class balance, but when the work has come this far along they aren't going to change the basic systems that were made. As players, we can only make polite, thorough arguments for why certain abilities need to be saved as baseline to the spec or in choices that don't go against other essential abilities.

 

In the case of "Sleep Dart", thankfully they just forgot to add it in.

Edited August 27, 2021 by arunav