Combat Styles Discussion

[Tsillah]

Generic will not net a positive result... I hope that's not the goal here, but it likely is at the core of the changes to allow for even less resources to be devoted to the game w/ EA/Bioware assuming people will continue to play for Star Wars "Barbie" which is how they collect money off the CM... content and fun combat doesn't directly result in money...outfits and decorations do.

Well a generic template is not so bad by itself, cause it is a template after all. And the loadouts are a template that you fill out and save. But I think that the less involved a template has to be, the better it will be for performance. That's why they want to align the classes on when they get the next skills and how many skills they can have total. And with utilities merged into skills, they can take that out as well.

 

And their assumption that we will play regardless may be a true one. Though each time I come back, there seems to be a bigger gap between them. And I cannot think that that's to their benefit if that happens to more players.

[Tsillah]

Yeah sorry, I don't know why the site isn't working currently. Dulfy was abandoned for a while but came back a few months ago I wanna say but now it's not working. I just copied and pasted the text from the article on the site.

Yeah, it's just that the GW comment just comes out of nowhere, without any reason. So I can't really place it. However, EA has a lot of things wrong...remember them saying how "nobody wants to play single-player games anymore"? And then there was a Jedi Fallen Order that did better than they expected and now there's the remastered Mass Effect Trilogy that also exceeded their expectations.

 

So EA may not have seen GW2 as successful but it is only behind in revenue and because it would be cheaper to create GW2, the profit margins are probably higher. My question was sort of rhetorical because clearly the revenue is there but they keep putting their money/resources in the wrong things. People asked for more daily areas. So they came with Iokath dailies. People didn't ask for different dailies though. If they'd just kept to the same things but in a different area people who do dailies would've been happy.

 

Somehow they keep wanting to be innovative in areas where they don't need to and not innovative in areas where they need to be. GSF was the last time they were being really innovative but it wasn't as successful as they hoped and they instantly stopped investing in it.

 

In the end MMOs need USPs and for SWTOR that is the original class stories. And they dropped that. They copied everything else from other MMOs, which is fine, but you need to do a good job at copying. SWTOR has many things it copied badly (like the GF, housing, log-in rewards, etc.). You need to make it on par with other MMOs or better.

 

There is this saying in my country that roughly translates to "it's better to copy it well than to invent it poorly". SWTOR forgot the "well" in there.

[Soljin]

Yeah, it's just that the GW comment just comes out of nowhere, without any reason. So I can't really place it. However, EA has a lot of things wrong...remember them saying how "nobody wants to play single-player games anymore"? And then there was a Jedi Fallen Order that did better than they expected and now there's the remastered Mass Effect Trilogy that also exceeded their expectations.

 

So EA may not have seen GW2 as successful but it is only behind in revenue and because it would be cheaper to create GW2, the profit margins are probably higher. My question was sort of rhetorical because clearly the revenue is there but they keep putting their money/resources in the wrong things. People asked for more daily areas. So they came with Iokath dailies. People didn't ask for different dailies though. If they'd just kept to the same things but in a different area people who do dailies would've been happy.

 

Somehow they keep wanting to be innovative in areas where they don't need to and not innovative in areas where they need to be. GSF was the last time they were being really innovative but it wasn't as successful as they hoped and they instantly stopped investing in it.

 

In the end MMOs need USPs and for SWTOR that is the original class stories. And they dropped that. They copied everything else from other MMOs, which is fine, but you need to do a good job at copying. SWTOR has many things it copied badly (like the GF, housing, log-in rewards, etc.). You need to make it on par with other MMOs or better.

 

There is this saying in my country that roughly translates to "it's better to copy it well than to invent it poorly". SWTOR forgot the "well" in there.

 

I don't think they fail to make fun game changes because they lack the ability to make those decisions...I think they make all decisions through a profit lens which turns pretty much every idea they have into a lesser or hollow version of the original idea.

 

Even when you copy a good idea if you choose to be stingy with rewards or your model rips out portions of the original idea to put it on the market or just not add certain portions because they will draw people away from purchases from your in game store then it becomes a bad implementation of a good idea...

[Andyfant]

Im acctually quite surpriced as i've not seen a single worry about loosing any class fantasy in the expansion. I would love for the classes to choose which weapon to use and get some abilites tied to the weapon, but what i fear is totally loosing the feel of being a bounty hunter (as it stands now) if i choose to use another weapon, other then what is currently avalible. I feel its alot less noticible for the force classes then it is for the tech classes in a manner.

 

example: Lets stay with the bounty hunter origin story, but lets say i use the combat style for sniper. Will the abilites i then use be that of the sniper as it stands currently (with pruning ofc), or will it still be themed arround that of the bounty hunter.

 

To me the loss of class fantasy in an RPG/MMO is key, and to loose that for the sake of using another weapon, just isnt worth it.

[Nihaelis]

Man, I am all for freeing up class from story. I want BW to go all the way and let me be a Force using Agent or a former Jedi turned Bounty Hunter. I am aware that all Imperial Force users are sent to become Sith, but skirting that rule sounds like it would make for some hella fun roleplay.

[Darth-Obvious]

Man, I am all for freeing up class from story. I want BW to go all the way and let me be a Force using Agent or a former Jedi turned Bounty Hunter. I am aware that all Imperial Force users are sent to become Sith, but skirting that rule sounds like it would make for some hella fun roleplay.

 

They're freeing up combat from the story or rather specific combat styles being locked to specific stories. The only exception being that Tech Classes can't use Force based Combat Styles and Vice Versa.

[Nihaelis]

They're freeing up combat from the story or rather specific combat styles being locked to specific stories. The only exception being that Tech Classes can't use Force based Combat Styles and Vice Versa.

 

I am aware. They need to go all the way though. Bounty Hunter's with double sabers and troopers with force lighting!

[Darth-Obvious]

I am aware. They need to go all the way though. Bounty Hunter's with double sabers and troopers with force lighting!

 

What would it matter once you get past Chapter 3? You can already dress up your Jedi/Sith in Bounty Hunter armor so once you get past the class stories there would be nothing to separate any of the Classes/Origins and if you're talking about being able to mix and match abilities from Force users and Tech users that's never going to happen.

[SithKoriandr]

What would it matter once you get past Chapter 3? You can already dress up your Jedi/Sith in Bounty Hunter armor so once you get past the class stories there would be nothing to separate any of the Classes/Origins and if you're talking about being able to mix and match abilities from Force users and Tech users that's never going to happen.

 

Which just has me feeling, they should've gone down to 4 stories, instead of 1, if they wanted to cut back.

 

Rep Tech

Emp Tech

Rep Force

Emp Force

 

But I guess, even that was to much for them to do. :/

[TrixxieTriss]

Which just has me feeling, they should've gone down to 4 stories, instead of 1, if they wanted to cut back.

 

Rep Tech

Emp Tech

Rep Force

Emp Force

 

But I guess, even that was to much for them to do. :/

 

It’s always a possibility they are planning on going to two stories. Force and Tech.

It would be better than the one story fits all where you have Tech basically doing Force stories like Kotet and Kotfe were supposed to be.

Of course that just a possibility. It doesn’t mean they will offer 2 stories in the future.

[Darth-Obvious]

Which just has me feeling, they should've gone down to 4 stories, instead of 1, if they wanted to cut back.

 

Rep Tech

Emp Tech

Rep Force

Emp Force

 

But I guess, even that was to much for them to do. :/

 

They went to one story because it was becoming difficult to even continue doing the two separate faction stories so there was no way they were ever going to be able to do four.

 

Think of it like this. Let's say Bioware was able to produce 8 hours of new story content for whatever new content but as a single narrative like KOTFE/KOTET not separate stories. Someone might say they could break that 8 hours up into 8 separate 1 hour class stories right? No, not even close.

 

It's possible (in that situation) to have an 8 hour single narrative vs 8 one hour stories because the single narrative is using all the same locations, characters, etc, but the more unique you make the separate narratives, ie unique locations, characters, dialogue, etc, the more the playable content of those experiences shrinks.

 

So it wouldn't be a situation of an 8 hour single narrative vs 8 single hour stories but more like an 8 hour single narrative vs 8 different 20 minute stories due to the unique features separate narratives need to have.

 

However, what you're suggesting I think could work but they'd all have to be fairly similar to one another to a certain degree. You'd be keeping the same locations/environments and instead would swap out the NPCs, mission givers, dialogue/story context, etc.

 

What's really been lacking from a lot of story content post-launch is flavor. There have been a few rare times here & there where your character is addressed by a class-specific title, ie Darth Nox, but they're so rare and far between but it doesn't feel like that needs to be the case. As long as they keep the environments and stuff like that the same it should be easy to swap dialogue or NPCs around as long they ultimately funnel you to the same place. For example, here's this cave where there's a boss fight, but the boss character is different depending on whether or not your Imp Force or Rep Tech or whatever.

 

It’s always a possibility they are planning on going to two stories. Force and Tech.

It would be better than the one story fits all where you have Tech basically doing Force stories like Kotet and Kotfe were supposed to be.

Of course that just a possibility. It doesn’t mean they will offer 2 stories in the future.

 

I remember Shadow of Revan kind of felt like it was trying to do a more tech-based "piratey" story with Rishi and a more Force based story with Yavin 4. Basically splitting the difference, something for everyone, etc, but then the problem there is that Rishi feels off or out of place for Force users while Yavin 4 feels off for Tech users.

 

I think 3.0, 4.0, and 5.0 all tried to do the "there's something here for everyone" type of story or stories without really appealing to anyone in the end because it would always result in you playing through large chunks of content that felt inappropriate for your class.

[RJWidowMaker]

What would it matter once you get past Chapter 3? You can already dress up your Jedi/Sith in Bounty Hunter armor so once you get past the class stories there would be nothing to separate any of the Classes/Origins and if you're talking about being able to mix and match abilities from Force users and Tech users that's never going to happen.

 

This is the point I've been trying to make for a long time. It's also why I heavily disagree with the way they are advertising Combat Styles. We really aren't getting the customization they say we are. For Combat Styles to be the big expansion feature selling point (outside of the norm, story, FP, op, etc) is beyond ridiculous. I feel like it's a pretty good indicator that they have a proportionally small budget compared to other MMO's.

[SithKoriandr]

I remember Shadow of Revan kind of felt like it was trying to do a more tech-based "piratey" story with Rishi and a more Force based story with Yavin 4. Basically splitting the difference, something for everyone, etc, but then the problem there is that Rishi feels off or out of place for Force users while Yavin 4 feels off for Tech users.

 

I think 3.0, 4.0, and 5.0 all tried to do the "there's something here for everyone" type of story or stories without really appealing to anyone in the end because it would always result in you playing through large chunks of content that felt inappropriate for your class.

 

The thing with Force Users, imo, is they can feel okay in a tech based story, because the force users can be tech. The same, I don't feel, can be said about a tech user in a force based story.

[Nihaelis]

What would it matter once you get past Chapter 3? You can already dress up your Jedi/Sith in Bounty Hunter armor so once you get past the class stories there would be nothing to separate any of the Classes/Origins and if you're talking about being able to mix and match abilities from Force users and Tech users that's never going to happen.

 

That'a a fair point. Personally I just feel like playing through the game as a Force using Bounty Hunter would be a different experience than playing through it as a Sith in Bounty Hunter armor, even after Chapter 3. I suppose it's more just about mental perception of the character your playing, which, imo, is very important in a rpg.

[Darth-Obvious]

Personally I just feel like playing through the game as a Force using Bounty Hunter would be a different experience than playing through it as a Sith in Bounty Hunter armor, even after Chapter 3.

 

What you're talking about only works or applies if you can mix and match skills/abilities but that's not at all what Combat Styles are. What you're basically asking for is a Bounty Hunter that can use Force Push while still using a blaster essentially but the Combat Styles don't work like that.

 

If you could use a Sith Warrior Combat Style while playing as a Bounty Hunter all it's gonna do is feel like playing a Sith Warrior. None of the Class Quests, Companion dialogues, etc, would change in the slightist. From a story perspective it would never feel like you were playing a Force using Bounty Hunter but rather an Bounty Hunter that can use a Sith Warrior Combat Style while fighting mobs.

 

I suppose it's more just about mental perception of the character your playing, which, imo, is very important in a rpg.

 

Except that perception would constantly break with the way Combat Styles work. You would be taken out of that perception during story moments or cutscenes because there would be no acknowledgment of you being able to use the force nor would they redo any of the cutscenes to show your character using a lightsaber or anything like that either.

 

In terms of gameplay that perception would be broken when all you're able to use would be Sith Warrior abilities. Once you switched Combat Styles to that of a Force Combat Style there would basically no longer be any unique combat defining characteristics of the Bounty Hunter.

[Darth-Obvious]

It's also why I heavily disagree with the way they are advertising Combat Styles. We really aren't getting the customization they say we are.

 

I don't feel like they've advertised Combat Styles as being customizable. I feel like it's always been "Hey do want to play as a Trooper who can wield two blasters? Well now you can." without going into specifics of how that would work and people in their heads imagined the best possible outcome of that scenario, ie mix and match abilities, all-new animations, etc.

 

I personally never saw it as anything more than swapping move sets between classes because I couldn't see a situation/scenario where they'd allow for not only the swapping of movesets but then also adding or editing animations on top of that.

 

It's always "X thing is announced" and then you've gotta figure or assume what's the easiest/simplest/cheapest way to get to that feature or solution.

 

The thing with Force Users, imo, is they can feel okay in a tech based story, because the force users can be tech. The same, I don't feel, can be said about a tech user in a force based story.

 

Yeah, that's true.

[Soljin]

What you're talking about only works or applies if you can mix and match skills/abilities but that's not at all what Combat Styles are. What you're basically asking for is a Bounty Hunter that can use Force Push while still using a blaster essentially but the Combat Styles don't work like that.

 

If you could use a Sith Warrior Combat Style while playing as a Bounty Hunter all it's gonna do is feel like playing a Sith Warrior. None of the Class Quests, Companion dialogues, etc, would change in the slightist. From a story perspective it would never feel like you were playing a Force using Bounty Hunter but rather an Bounty Hunter that can use a Sith Warrior Combat Style while fighting mobs.

 

 

 

Except that perception would constantly break with the way Combat Styles work. You would be taken out of that perception during story moments or cutscenes because there would be no acknowledgment of you being able to use the force nor would they redo any of the cutscenes to show your character using a lightsaber or anything like that either.

 

In terms of gameplay that perception would be broken when all you're able to use would be Sith Warrior abilities. Once you switched Combat Styles to that of a Force Combat Style there would basically no longer be any unique combat defining characteristics of the Bounty Hunter.

 

My Luke Skywalker action figure is carrying a lightsaber and has a blaster on his hip...which combat style is that?

[Tsillah]

My Luke Skywalker action figure is carrying a lightsaber and has a blaster on his hip...which combat style is that?

Now, wait a minute here. That's to facilitate loadouts. And of course you have to buy the second blaster separately.

[Darth-Obvious]

My Luke Skywalker action figure is carrying a lightsaber and has a blaster on his hip...which combat style is that?

 

1) One that people want but that the game doesn't offer.

 

2) HUmar from Phantasy Star Online

[Viyk]

All I know is this seems like a waste of resources and time that could be dedicated to actual game and engine improvements. If I wanted a Sith Juggernaut playstyle, I'll roll a Sith warrior and have him or her be a Juggernaut. If I want an IA playstyle, I'll roll the IA class.

 

I just...don't really get this, I guess. It seems like a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

[SithKoriandr]

All I know is this seems like a waste of resources and time that could be dedicated to actual game and engine improvements. If I wanted a Sith Juggernaut playstyle, I'll roll a Sith warrior and have him or her be a Juggernaut. If I want an IA playstyle, I'll roll the IA class.

 

I just...don't really get this, I guess. It seems like a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

 

It was a problem that existed. It just wasn't the fix people had in mind

 

Making it so my Consular could use a single blade lightsaber and still be melee, is what I wanted. Of course, I wanted Infiltration Spec with a single blade

 

However, as Consular is my personal favorite storyline, I'll settle with a Guardian/Juggernaut spec. Not to mention, using pistols with my Agent and Trooper is a plus!

[RJWidowMaker]

It was a problem that existed. It just wasn't the fix people had in mind

 

Making it so my Consular could use a single blade lightsaber and still be melee, is what I wanted. Of course, I wanted Infiltration Spec with a single blade

 

However, as Consular is my personal favorite storyline, I'll settle with a Guardian/Juggernaut spec. Not to mention, using pistols with my Agent and Trooper is a plus!

 

The story you pick hasn't had anything to do with character identity for several expansions now. When was the last time an NPC called your Consular, Agent or Trooper anything other than Commander past level 50 content?

 

There isn't enough story content that defines your character's class or origin to justify the "My class but with a different weapon" line being pushed. I would agree if you didn't become the Commander for eternity after the first 50 levels. I do get that there are people that see RP value but this feature does almost nothing different that you don't already achieve with an out of class style outfit.

 

I think it is awesome as a feature that allows us to not have to repeat stories we aren't into just because we want to make another alt. The feature does have value. But the way BW puts such heavy emphasis on the weapon aspect doesn't sit right with me.

[Ardrossan]

The story you pick hasn't had anything to do with character identity for several expansions now. When was the last time an NPC called your Consular, Agent or Trooper anything other than Commander past level 50 content?

 

A major part of Onslaught is that they call you by your old title afterwards, if you so choose. So um, pretty recently.

 

Strange that you did not know that given how authoritatively you are talking about the expansions.

[Soljin]

Folks have been asking to open up weapon choices for classes and per typical SWToR fashion they found the easiest way to achieve a version which is not what people wanted but a lesser version of it and then raised their banners of triumph...when in fact they missed the mark.

 

We need to face that Bioware does not value their player base enough to invest the resources needed to achieve what we ask for fully and completely...we will always get a crummy version. We don't get the new shiny Luke Skywalker action figure we get the hand carved version that looks similar to a humanoid at best...

 

Before anyone starts saying "they can't because" I don't want to hear it from you I want to hear it from Bioware why they can't actually make simple changes... I know the answer already anyway (cost).

Edited August 14, 2021 by Soljin

[Ardrossan]

Before anyone starts saying "they can't because" I don't want to hear it from you I want to hear it from Bioware why they can't actually make simple changes... I know the answer already anyway (cost).

 

lol it's true. This forum repeats this assumption like it's a fact despite that no one from BW has ever confirmed it. Given what Jeff Nyman had previously said, I think there's a high chance BW screwed it up by themselves rather than it being evil EA holding back the purse strings.