My First and Last Warzone at level 75 as a New Sub

[Aricin]

quick disclaimer, played on and off since launch. currently rank 90 valour. Not that this give my opinion more or less weight, just for context. All valour earned solo queuing non ranked. I took a break after 6.1 (or 6.0) and am disgusted with the "only wins" count for any daily / weekly quest progress.

 

Who thought this was a good idea? And "if the pvp" was its own reward then why does the pvp community constantly beg on fleet for people to queue.

 

Match making is already broken and now feels like solo queueing is constantly punished and feels like going against pre made or by luck competent players no stop is disheartening.. 8 matches in a row - 0 wins. 10-15 medals each game

 

Result. got my conquest through other means. Done with PVP for the week. I dont think that was the desired outcome

[Aeneas_Falco]

Unless you are doing Arena your damage is not important as you think.

 

Stalling interrupting and looking at stuff and doing the right things are. For example I have won a few HBs doing next to zero DPS and HPS just by focusing on the right things.

 

BW does enough in each WZ u have what you need to do.

 

Damage definitely matters a lot, even in Huttball. If you can't control the spawn point or kill enemy ball carriers you're probably going to lose.

 

You're right though that damage doesn't matter nearly as much as the e-peen measuring damage farming regstars think. You got to be focusing the right targets, first. Sticking with Huttball, if someone is doing a rotation on another DPS and ignoring an enemy ball carrier or an enemy healer keeping them up their DPS is meaningless. Some DPS also need to leave mid (or worse, the pit) and support their own ball carriers. If no one is doing that and their own ball carrier gets blown up because of it, their DPS is also meaningless.

 

Then you have Voidstar or other node matches where people chase so far away from nodes that they can't break caps and someone caps behind them, or they're just so locked into tunnel vision on another DPS that they don't even notice it. Also meaningless.

 

Then you have the DPS that quite literally don't know how to do anything but damage. If it is amazing how many of these damage farming big brains finish a match with little or no protection points despite playing a spec with taunts and guard. Guard is much more situational now but even when it wasn't you'd still have DPS with taunt and guard putting up big DPS numbers but having a goose egg in protection. Also useless.

 

Most DPS also don't seem to know what a mez looks like or when to use their own CC. The amount of times your own team has cap attempts fail because of premature mez breaks or lack of support with CC is amazing, yet some of these same clowns will have the gall to blame their team for a loss when the leaderboard pops with a big D.

 

Of course it's not just the cause of defeats. People tend not to notice those things when they win, but the reality is the great majority of wins are also because of bad play on the other team.

 

I used to be against suggestions that Bioware remove the leaderboard because its always good to see how you performed, and it does feel good when it pops and you crushed it with damage, protection, healing, objectives, ect. Removing it though might lead to some of these people mindlessly focusing on damage and nothing else to play a fuller game, and lead to better matches.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Aeneas_Falco

[TrixxieTriss]

Damage definitely matters a lot, even in Huttball. If you can't control the spawn point or kill enemy ball carriers you're probably going to lose.

 

You're right though that damage doesn't matter nearly as much as the e-peen measuring damage farming regstars think. You got to be focusing the right targets, first. Sticking with Huttball, if someone is doing a rotation on another DPS and ignoring an enemy ball carrier or an enemy healer keeping them up their DPS is meaningless. Some DPS also need to leave mid (or worse, the pit) and support their own ball carriers. If no one is doing that and their own ball carrier gets blown up because of it, their DPS is also meaningless.

 

Then you have Voidstar or other node matches where people chase so far away from nodes that they can't break caps and someone caps behind them, or they're just so locked into tunnel vision on another DPS that they don't even notice it. Also meaningless.

 

Then you have the DPS that quite literally don't know how to do anything but damage. If it is amazing how many of these damage farming big brains finish a match with little or no protection points despite playing a spec with taunts and guard. Guard is much more situational now but even when it wasn't you'd still have DPS with taunt and guard putting up big DPS numbers but having a goose egg in protection. Also useless.

 

Most DPS also don't seem to know what a mez looks like or when to use their own CC. The amount of times your own team has cap attempts fail because of premature mez breaks or lack of support with CC is amazing, yet some of these same clowns will have the gall to blame their team for a loss when the leaderboard pops with a big D.

 

Of course it's not just the cause of defeats. People tend not to notice those things when they win, but the reality is the great majority of wins are also because of bad play on the other team.

 

I used to be against suggestions that Bioware remove the leaderboard because its always good to see how you performed, and it does feel good when it pops and you crushed it with damage, protection, healing, objectives, ect. Removing it though might lead to some of these people mindlessly focusing on damage and nothing else to play a fuller game, and lead to better matches.

 

Very well written. Great analysis of the situation.

 

On a side note. Bioware could instead make our end game scoreboard stats private in objective pvp. This would mean you could still analyse your own stats, but at the same time remove the podium for the epeeners to show off.

If that’s still not enough to prevent them focusing on the wrong things, then consider removing it totally (which I’m not in favour of).

 

Personally I think they need a multi pronged approach to improve things -

 

1. Make the stats private on the end game scoreboard for objective pvp. It should stay for Arena matches.

 

2. Rework the medal system and objective points system for each type of map and get rid of or reduce a lot of the generic points that cross over map types and don’t encourage objective team play.

 

3. Additionally reward players based on the reworked medal / objective point system as well as winning. So even if you lose, you may still get a better reward than someone on the winning team who didn’t try to win at all.

 

4. Change missions back to a points system to advance them, but a higher ratio than the old 2:1. It could be a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio of points to complete the daily/weekly missions

 

5. Possibly add extra mission reward points based on the amount of medals. Ie, you lose the match, but you get 15 medals, which gives you extra point(s) for the match to go towards advancing your missions.

 

6. Make lowbies and Mids matter again as a place to learn. Many of us have posted lots of ideas over the last 4 years on how to do that. So I won’t repeat them all, except to say, adding tech frags as a reward would be a good start.

 

This set up would reward players trying to win by playing better.

It would incentives players to get better to advance their missions or get better rewards. It would disincentivise epeen scoreboard players.

 

People would not give up as fast or as easy if their team is losing or at a disadvantage (bad match making or leavers) because they would still work towards their personal medals and the opportunity to advance their missions or get better rewards that way.

 

It would hopefully bring people back to Pvp who feel like current system doesn’t reward them for playing well or trying win. And not feel penalised because of bad match making or people not trying.

 

It would also hopefully get better players trying to help and educate new or less skilled players get better and learn strategy, tactics and their own classes better.

 

I think it would revitalise objective pvp and pvp in general. Which would improve the quality and participation in the reg population and even help rebuild the ranked population too.

Edited January 2, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[DavidAtkinson]

Very well written. Great analysis of the situation.

 

On a side note. Bioware could instead make our end game scoreboard stats private in objective pvp. This would mean you could still analyse your own stats, but at the same time remove the podium for the epeeners to show off.

If that’s still not enough to prevent them focusing on the wrong things, then consider removing it totally (which I’m not in favour of).

 

Personally I think they need a multi pronged approach to improve things -

 

1. Make the stats private on the end game scoreboard for objective pvp. It should stay for Arena matches.

 

2. Rework the medal system and objective points system for each type of map and get rid of or reduce a lot of the generic points that cross over map types and don’t encourage objective team play.

 

3. Additionally reward players based on the reworked medal / objective point system as well as winning. So even if you lose, you may still get a better reward than someone on the winning team who didn’t try to win at all.

 

4. Change missions back to a points system to advance them, but a higher ratio than the old 2:1. It could be a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio of points to complete the daily/weekly missions

 

5. Possibly add extra mission reward points based on the amount of medals. Ie, you lose the match, but you get 15 medals, which gives you extra point(s) for the match to go towards advancing your missions.

 

6. Make lowbies and Mids matter again as a place to learn. Many of us have posted lots of ideas over the last 4 years on how to do that. So I won’t repeat them all, except to say, adding tech frags as a reward would be a good start.

 

This set up would reward players trying to win by playing better.

It would incentives players to get better to advance their missions or get better rewards. It would disincentivise epeen scoreboard players.

 

People would not give up as fast or as easy if their team is losing or at a disadvantage (bad match making or leavers) because they would still work towards their personal medals and the opportunity to advance their missions or get better rewards that way.

 

It would hopefully bring people back to Pvp who feel like current system doesn’t reward them for playing well or trying win. And not feel penalised because of bad match making or people not trying.

 

It would also hopefully get better players trying to help and educate new or less skilled players get better and learn strategy, tactics and their own classes better.

 

I think it would revitalise objective pvp and pvp in general. Which would improve the quality and participation in the reg population and even help rebuild the ranked population too.

 

You really have no idea why people PVP do you and why exists in the first place ?

 

It is because want to kill each other.. Simple as that.

 

As to why unranked is in the state is ?

 

I start with a question : What's the point of winning in uranked ? What do I get for it ? Answer : NOTHING .

 

Now do I have a good reason to not give a damn and farm kills and dps ? Absolutely ! Why would anyone care about something that gives them nothing for winning. Yes , I repeat, in SWTOR'S unranked PVP wins mean nothing, give nothing... Who's fault it is ? The developers aren't creative enough to actually make unranked matter . WHy doesn't unranked have it's own currency that you can buy some cosmetics.. or anything ? Why doesn't unranked have some better rewards ? There are many ways to improve unranked... I don't find anything about it in your list.

 

Makingt scoreboard private ? Really ??? You think people wouldn't farm dps ? They absolutely would and they would check that private score table to see if they hit that 11k dps in Voidstar. It would change nothing.

 

I repeat. If you want proper pvp and unranked in this game, they have to make it matter. Wins matter , there are rewards gated behind wins etc. You don't have to turn it into an actual ranked., but in it's current state, it's just there as a filler.

 

In ranked for example I want the rewards. A lot of them are nice and to get them , I need to win .. because I wins give more tokens .

 

Regarding learning in lows and mids . Yes and no.. What exactly do you expect players to learn in low levels of PVP ? The main reason so many players suck at PVP is because PVE content in this game doesn't require them to play their classes' defenses to the max , where as in PVP , you need to do that to the fullest , especially in competitive PVP.

 

Most players in unranked are capable of playing their classes offensively but when it comes to defenses, they are totally clueless . This is not because they are inepts or stupid, it is because they can go for a walk while their companion does everything . PVE content is that easy . No challenge at all. So they end up in PVP being very good at mashing the keyboard but when they get attacked , they are basically numb and die in 5 seconds. You can see this especially in arenas.

 

 

Overall yes, there are a lot of things to be said.. but from my point of view the major reason why unranked is dps farm kills farm , people not giving a damn is because there is no reward for winning. Fix this.. and everyone will try harder. Adding lockouts is not the way . And was never the way. Lockouts should be ranked only .

[AlrikFassbauer]

I then check the mission progress still at 0... Then correctly read the mission requirements of needing to WIN and logged out disappointed.

 

Vocal people wanted it to be so. Thank them.

 

It is because want to kill each other.. Simple as that.

 

As to why unranked is in the state is ?

 

I start with a question : What's the point of winning in uranked ? What do I get for it ? Answer : NOTHING .

 

Badmouthing unranked, making it a feeder fest for ranked players to warm up. I get it.

 

You are in fact doing nothing but throwing people like the original poster out of the PvP window because you very firmly believe that you are something better than they are.

 

And this is pure elitism.

 

It is because want to kill each other.. Simple as that.

 

Hence the strong opposition against objective PvP ?

Edited January 2, 2021 by AlrikFassbauer

[DavidAtkinson]

Vocal people wanted it to be so. Thank them.

 

 

 

Badmouthing unranked, making it a feeder fest for ranked players to warm up. I get it.

 

You are in fact doing nothing but throwing people like the original poster out of the PvP window because you very firmly believe that you are something better than they are.

 

And this is pure elitism.

 

 

 

Hence the strong opposition against objective PvP ?

 

I am not really sure what the OP expected when entering PVP for the first time ? To be god mode or something ?

 

People complain all the time, but are they doing anything to improve ? They claim that system needs to be changed cause it's unfair, but they can't see that maybe them being not so good has to change first ? I am willing to bet that JediMasterAlex wasn't so good at PVp when he first tried it out, but he practiced and improved over time.

 

You see these threads all the time.. Guy gets stomped by an operative and he comes to the forum and creates a ' nerf operatives thread ' cause he doesn't think about the fact that maybe the guy playing operative played a class that has a lot of tools for PVp and maybe he was also much more experienced than him.

 

The thread starter threw himself out of the window by not accepting the fact PVP is any online game is a harsh environment . You can play against people who are PVP-ing on daily basis for years and you need to do some catching up.

Edited January 2, 2021 by DavidAtkinson

[Sevarious]

This particular change was an absolute disappointment when I came back this last time. I'm honestly not sure how long I'll even stick with the game this time around. This change, in my opinion, ruins a portion of the game I enjoyed. I get the notion that you should pvp for pvp. I'll openly admit I'm only an average pvper. I typically fair better on my healers, and I just run with pick up groups. Some days I'd merely do the 2 matches if we kept loosing for the daily / weekly progress. Some days I'd run a lot more than the 2 matches. Ultimately this is an MMORPG. Aside from the social aspect, most everything you do in game is about some form of progression, whether it's for exp, tech fragments, credits, etc. I have gone 4 matches without a win under the new system and logged out in disgust. In the old system, if things were that frustrating, I could just complete the 2 and call it a night. Now you either carry on trying to get that win, adding to frustration over time, or simply not participate. I've unfortunately decided not to participate under the new system. This eliminates a portion of the game I enjoyed previously and makes a departure from the game all the more likely. My take on it for what it's worth.

[numblocked]

Played my first match today and what a joke. Wont bother queuing again unless i have max gear and FOTM class.

[Aeneas_Falco]

You really have no idea why people PVP do you and why exists in the first place ?

 

It is because want to kill each other.. Simple as that.

 

.

 

That isn't the only thing. If that was the only thing why play SWTOR? Plenty of games out there that provide mindless pvp where you don't have to use any tactics besides mashing offensive or defensive abilities at the correct time and place.

 

No doubt that is how people who deathmatch in Regs view things and it is why regs matches that accumulate a critical mass of them turn into a mess.

 

The thing is...for most matches you don't even have to sacrifice DPS to also play to win. Theexceptions are Huttball matches if you're the only one running the ball or Odessen if you run mods and your nodes just don't get attacked. For the rest though the fighting is generally going to be at contested nodes. If a person fighting at that node can't multitask, can't target swap at the right time, or use CC at the right moment without a DPS loss...they're not good DPS.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Aeneas_Falco

[limenutpen]

I actually have gotten used to the current PvP system. My only problem is when I am the only player trying to win the game, and I have to stick with seven other useless players.

Huttball and Odessen are the biggest problems in this, even though I tell people what they need to do.

Solution found; find random player and do a 1 vs 1 as much as it lasts, or sit in a corner and stay crafting (easy with stealth classes).

Solution is for BW to incentive wins and also do give more for playing objectices in a PvP based WZ.

If you are playing Arenas where kills are important the scope should be the opposite.

[kekrot]

The fact that the old sub-max level missions like [WEEKLY] The War Front accessible from lv 10 also requires the SAME requirements as max-level endgame weekly (10 wins) really shows how out of touch with the playerbase the Pvp devs are. Do they even play the game, and try to finish the slogfests these missions have become??? Those low level weeklies should really, REALLY be easier than the endgame one, that's for sure.

 

I mean, a few years back the endgame weekly was 14 matches, wins count 2, and they even gave you commendations for exclusive gear. Then it got upped to 20, never understood even that change, it's just for player retention I guess, arbitrarily and artificially stretching out the time needed to complete it. Now it's purely up to luck who you're matched with, you can go like 5 losses in a row and see this, heartbreaking weekly stay at 0/10. It feels more like being treated as a win-trader/thrower/cheater/whatever. That was the point of the change combined with the quit lockouts, right? To encourage quitters to stay and take their loss? Well, this hurts the legit players more than those, throwers will throw, and those days when I'm unlucky, I really feel like Bioware treats me like a quitter, cause I get the same progress as them except I don't quit.

 

For the topic creator, to get gear you could probably run 2-3 TC group finder runs to get the same amount of gear that a warzone weekly gives, except it takes 15 minutes instead of 2 hours at a minimum with all wins. Unbalanced AF.

Edited January 4, 2021 by kekrot

[JediMasterAlex]

I actually have gotten used to the current PvP system. My only problem is when I am the only player trying to win the game, and I have to stick with seven other useless players.

 

It's this mindset, which I am totally sympathetic to, that often drives people to become number farmers. And it's why I mostly stopped playing regs a long time ago and almost exclusively play solo ranked instead. Because in solo ranked, the vast majority of the time your teammates all share the same goal, you can set a kill order in chat and people generally follow it. Plus, you're 1/4 of the team as opposed to 1/8, so you can have a bigger impact on the outcome.

 

So my solution for you: play more solo ranked

[limenutpen]

It's this mindset, which I am totally sympathetic to, that often drives people to become number farmers. And it's why I mostly stopped playing regs a long time ago and almost exclusively play solo ranked instead. Because in solo ranked, the vast majority of the time your teammates all share the same goal, you can set a kill order in chat and people generally follow it. Plus, you're 1/4 of the team as opposed to 1/8, so you can have a bigger impact on the outcome.

 

So my solution for you: play more solo ranked

 

I do play SR since S1 more or less minus the times I was not subbed.

Although the first 10/11 seasons have all been healing.

 

While I agree SR is in better shape it is far from perfect, though it is better then it has been in the past.

Also IMO a nice game in regz is always better then SR.

 

Arenas (mostly SR) have ultimately screwed PvP balancing not little, and tacticals have not helped much.

 

To be honest I would take away SR from the game make solo Arenas a separate que and just leave TR and start to balance around that.

Look at how bad balancing is in current Meta only TR viable combination is 2 PTs, 1 skank Jugg and 1 Merc healer.

Possible a choice of a very capable Sorc healer. But I would doubt that as well.

Is this balance?

Edited January 4, 2021 by limenutpen

[JediMasterAlex]

I do play SR since S1 more or less minus the times I was not subbed.

Although the first 10/11 seasons have all been healing.

 

While I agree SR is in better shape it is far from perfect, though it is better then it has been in the past.

Also IMO a nice game in regz is always better then SR.

 

Arenas (mostly SR) have ultimately screwed PvP balancing not little, and tacticals have not helped much.

 

To be honest I would take away SR from the game make solo Arenas a separate que and just leave TR and start to balance around that.

Look at how bad balancing is in current Meta only TR viable combination is 2 PTs, 1 skank Jugg and 1 Merc healer.

Possible a choice of a very capable Sorc healer. But I would doubt that as well.

Is this balance?

 

The problem is team ranked is dead except when people make appointments to play it with each other. That's not my idea of good competition or fun, so solo ranked is the only viable option. A regs arena only queue would still be cool though on top of solo ranked.

[DavidAtkinson]

The problem is team ranked is dead except when people make appointments to play it with each other. That's not my idea of good competition or fun, so solo ranked is the only viable option. A regs arena only queue would still be cool though on top of solo ranked.

 

what you do when you lose rating in SR or get bad teams multiple times ?

[DavidAtkinson]

I do play SR since S1 more or less minus the times I was not subbed.

Although the first 10/11 seasons have all been healing.

 

While I agree SR is in better shape it is far from perfect, though it is better then it has been in the past.

Also IMO a nice game in regz is always better then SR.

 

Arenas (mostly SR) have ultimately screwed PvP balancing not little, and tacticals have not helped much.

 

To be honest I would take away SR from the game make solo Arenas a separate que and just leave TR and start to balance around that.

Look at how bad balancing is in current Meta only TR viable combination is 2 PTs, 1 skank Jugg and 1 Merc healer.

Possible a choice of a very capable Sorc healer. But I would doubt that as well.

Is this balance?

 

Tacticals have made balance worse and team ranked shouldn't exist in this game because it's a total joke.... Unless you have proper teams , there is zero reason to bother and the current win system and the adding mats have made a small proportion of the players extremely rich , with them selling those mats for almost 1 billion every week .

 

Imagine Bioware being so out of touch with what is happening in game to allow this to happen. And then you wonder why those ludicrous prices for new augments on gtn.. 500 mil or more for one piece.

 

Solo ranked is the only viable form of competition, even if.. it has a lot of flaws as well.

Edited January 4, 2021 by DavidAtkinson

[JediMasterAlex]

what you do when you lose rating in SR or get bad teams multiple times ?

 

Usually I just keep queueing. Sometimes I might swap to a different character. If there are actual throwers and stuff, then I usually stop queueing for a while. The experience will vary, which is part of what frustrates people, but I always try to emphasize it.

 

Sometimes you can play 3 or 4 terrible matches in a row, with teammates getting globaled, or trash talking, or 3v4s or backfilled healers, etc. But then other times you can play 3 hours straight of good, competitive matches. Solo ranked is all these things, but the bad stuff is much rarer than the good stuff from my experience.

Edited January 4, 2021 by JediMasterAlex

[DavidAtkinson]

Usually I just keep queueing. Sometimes I might swap to a different character. If there are actual throwers and stuff, then I usually stop queueing for a while. The experience will vary, which is part of what frustrates people, but I always try to emphasize it.

 

Sometimes you can play 3 or 4 terrible matches in a row, with teammates getting globaled, or trash talking, or 3v4s or backfilled healers, etc. But then other times you can play 3 hours straight of good, competitive matches. Solo ranked is all these things, but the bad stuff is much rarer than the good stuff from my experience.

 

Or you get in team with the ranked gods who say you are garbage and aren't worth their time.. cause you are not top tier player.. I am stuck around 1200 's on my mains after almost 100 games and that's probably my level of playing and I am ok with that , but this attitude totally kills my motivation to que all the time. I always question myself about the reason why I take part in game modes where such players exist . But I have no choice. Unranked just bores me.. and ranked is the only viable PVp option I can take part in. You know I was the one that always said to others " keep queing through the elitism and trash talk cause you ain't gonna get better otherwise " and I just realized how hard it actually is to apply it on myself.

 

People stucking in spawn in round 2 and not even trying is worse than vote kick ...

[JediMasterAlex]

Or you get in team with the ranked gods who say you are garbage and aren't worth their time.. cause you are not top tier player.. I am stuck around 1200 's on my mains after almost 100 games and that's probably my level of playing and I am ok with that , but this attitude totally kills my motivation to que all the time. I always question myself about the reason why I take part in game modes where such players exist . But I have no choice. Unranked just bores me.. and ranked is the only viable PVp option I can take part in. You know I was the one that always said to others " keep queing through the elitism and trash talk cause you ain't gonna get better otherwise " and I just realized how hard it actually is to apply it on myself.

 

People stucking in spawn in round 2 and not even trying is worse than vote kick ...

 

If they're stucking in spawn before the round even starts, report them.