Amplifiers in PvP

[RobTWC]

On the theorycrafter it reckons that Armour Pen is around 1% more DPS the Weapon Expertise for Infiltration/Deception however is this true in PvP does anyone know?

 

There are old posts from around a year ago that reckoned Armour Pen was useless in PvP, is this still the case?

 

Thanks

[Beyrahl]

Don't think there's a full understanding of how armor penetration works in PvP, at least with confirmation by devs.

 

There's a lot of ways to look at it, do you actually get extra damage if you penetrate all of their armor?

Does it only penetrate a % of their current armor?

Does sunder actually decrease the effectiveness of armor pen?

Only tanks have pretty high armor rating outside of power yield on DPS is this taken into account and vary its effectiveness?

 

I could give an educated guess but none of it has been made clear. PvE content has high armor so it has high value there, but in PvP, most players have lower armor rating unless you're TT'ing or hitting into power yield.

 

There's been one thing I want to try soon is the armor pen that arsenal can stack and how it does versus weapon expertise as I think it'd have the most impact on that class, outside of carnage at least.

[JediMasterAlex]

Don't think there's a full understanding of how armor penetration works in PvP, at least with confirmation by devs.

 

Yeah it's unfortunate. I still see a lot of mercs using it. I use it on my merc, but my damage isn't stellar on that class. The primary benefit of armor pen, I think, is that it applies to all of your abilities as merc, sin, mara, jugg, whereas weapon expertise only applies to about half of your abilities. So weapon expertise would have to be a pretty big benefit on the white damage attacks for it to be better overall. But maybe I'm thinking about it wrong.

[TrixxieTriss]

Yeah it's unfortunate. I still see a lot of mercs using it. I use it on my merc, but my damage isn't stellar on that class. The primary benefit of armor pen, I think, is that it applies to all of your abilities as merc, sin, mara, jugg, whereas weapon expertise only applies to about half of your abilities. So weapon expertise would have to be a pretty big benefit on the white damage attacks for it to be better overall. But maybe I'm thinking about it wrong.

 

I’m not sure how much it does, but it does do something. I’ve tested it in lowbies against the same teams.

My setup was lvl 10 gear with all gold penetration amps v lvl 10 no amps at all (older armoring). Used bolster to stat.

I definitely did way more damage with the amp than without.

I’ve tested this on rage Jugg, fury Mara, Arsenal Merc, Mm sniper.

[KittyKat_Karrot]

Actually there is a full understanding of how arpen works in pvp. The math has all been figured out. Arpen is the best amp for several specs. After the nerf to death knell, arpen may be slightly more pve dps than weapon dmg for deception, but I still use weapon dmg because maximizing burst is priority.

[JediMasterAlex]

Actually there is a full understanding of how arpen works in pvp. The math has all been figured out. Arpen is the best amp for several specs. After the nerf to death knell, arpen may be slightly more pve dps than weapon dmg for deception, but I still use weapon dmg because maximizing burst is priority.

 

Ok, you say there is a full understanding, but what you said after contradicts someone else who recently said the exact same thing to me. Based on player armor (except jugg/pt tanks), armor pen is inferior to weapon expertise/force sensitivity, according to the values figured out by this person on the theorycrafting discord. It was the first time I had seen it calculated specifically for player armor before.

Edited October 7, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[TrixxieTriss]

It would be good to compare the two theories side by side.

Can someone post the math

[lord-angelus]

It's figured out and confirmed, in theory crafting discord. You can check there. As someone else stated armor pen is best for some classes

[Sertar]

It's figured out and confirmed, in theory crafting discord. You can check there. As someone else stated armor pen is best for some classes

 

While I agree that the theorycrafting discord is a great source for reliable information and can highly recommend to join it, it's open for anyone in the end so you shouldn't take everything for granted that anybody says. That applies even more to these forums though.

 

Specifically on topic of Armor Pen, of which effectiveness is dependent on your target's armor (raid boss, dummy, enemy player, ..), there is no easy answer. I remember an excel sheet that tried to get as close as possible to one, where you could modify the target's armor value to see the simulation results for any DPS spec. So PvPers could try to put in Light/Medium/Heavy Armor values and see what they get. However, these results were still based on PvE dummy rotations with 100% uptime (I think).

 

People generally believe in what works for them, and rarely do the actual math. That's fine, I do that too. But atleast don't pretend that you have the one final confirmed answer.

[JediMasterAlex]

It's figured out and confirmed, in theory crafting discord. You can check there. As someone else stated armor pen is best for some classes

 

Have you read the pvp channel in the theorycraffter discord over the last few days? If anything is "figured out and confirmed" for pvp, it's that armor pen is never best. Now again, It's still a bit muddy as far as I'm concerned, but the math I was shown made sense.

 

Specifically on topic of Armor Pen, of which effectiveness is dependent on your target's armor (raid boss, dummy, enemy player, ..), there is no easy answer. I remember an excel sheet that tried to get as close as possible to one, where you could modify the target's armor value to see the simulation results for any DPS spec. So PvPers could try to put in Light/Medium/Heavy Armor values and see what they get. However, these results were still based on PvE dummy rotations with 100% uptime (I think).

 

Yes, this is what the person was showing me.

 

People generally believe in what works for them, and rarely do the actual math. That's fine, I do that too. But atleast don't pretend that you have the one final confirmed answer.

 

Exactly. I'll give another example. I've seen people claim with absolute certainty that you should never go above 3200 crit. I had a lot of discussions with a really good theorycrafter from the discord, and I went all the way up to 3750 crit on my lightning sorc. And it worked great. I got to season high ratings on my sorc and sage with it. Obviously it probably made very little difference, but the point is that it still worked at least as well as 3k crit. But if you asked some people, I was almost throwing by having that much lol.

Edited October 7, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[Sertar]

But if you asked some people, I was almost throwing by having that much lol.

Some people also get globalled just because they forgot to put in 1 Armoring

[KittyKat_Karrot]

Remember that "I did well with X build" is irrelevant to the academic conversation of what the best build is, when the difference between the "right build" and "wrong build" is at the most a couple % difference dps, and more likely <1% difference. Skill is an overwhelmingly bigger factor, obviously. I happen to go over 4k crit on some classes because the negligible loss in average dps is irrelevant, and I'd rather my damage profile be slightly spikier. Mastery/power/crit are honestly far more balanced vs each other than almost anyone realizes.

 

Having the proper amps matters a bit more than having the right crit rating, but it's still not a big deal, especially for the specs that receive almost the same benefit from a few different amps, like veng. And yeah anyone who says arpen is never best for pvp is definitely wrong.

Edited October 7, 2020 by KittyKat_Karrot

[JediMasterAlex]

Remember that "I did well with X build" is irrelevant to the academic conversation of what the best build is, when the difference between the "right build" and "wrong build" is at the most a couple % difference dps, and more likely <1% difference. Skill is an overwhelmingly bigger factor, obviously. I happen to go over 4k crit on some classes because the negligible loss in average dps is irrelevant, and I'd rather my damage profile be slightly spikier. Mastery/power/crit are honestly far more balanced vs each other than almost anyone realizes.

 

That's true. But my build is based on theorycrafting as well. It's theorycrafting informed by the big differences between pve and pvp, which of course is relevant.

 

Having the proper amps matters a bit more than having the right crit rating, but it's still not a big deal, especially for the specs that receive almost the same benefit from a few different amps, like veng. And yeah anyone who says arpen is never best for pvp is definitely wrong.

 

Are they? From what I've seen, it's only best for tank tunneling jugg/pt tanks. Probably best not to gear for that. I'd be happy to see your evidence if you think it has applicability beyond that.

[KittyKat_Karrot]

If you want the formula, it's 100x/(x+26975) for % DR from armor. Full arpen amps (23.5% arpen) means X gets a 0.765 multiplier, negating a decent chunk of their DR from armor.

 

For most specs, the flat damage boost from weapon/force/tech/dot amps will overtake the benefit of that DR chunk, but for specs with mixed white/yellow damage profiles, with little to no internal/elemental damage, the benefit from any of those listed amps will be not be high enough to overtake the DR chunk benefit. Arsenal rage and fury are the best examples, with a couple other specs doing just fine with arpen. Definitely no using arpen on sorcs, ops, snipers, or even PTs (though arpen isn't that much worse than tech dmg for AP).

Edited October 8, 2020 by KittyKat_Karrot

[TrixxieTriss]

If you want the formula, it's 100x/(x+26975) for % DR from armor. Full arpen amps (23.5% arpen) means X gets a 0.765 multiplier, negating a decent chunk of their DR from armor.

 

For most specs, the flat damage boost from weapon/force/tech/dot amps will overtake the benefit of that DR chunk, but for specs with mixed white/yellow damage profiles, with little to no internal/elemental damage, the benefit from any of those listed amps will be not be high enough to overtake the DR chunk benefit. Arsenal rage and fury are the best examples, with a couple other specs doing just fine with arpen. Definitely no using arpen on sorcs, ops, snipers, or even PTs (though arpen isn't that much worse than tech dmg for AP).

 

Been testing weapon vs armpen in lowbies on my rage Jugg and fury mara. There is a distinct difference in performance in favour of armpen vs weapon.

I tested it with no amps as well to get a base line and weapon amp by itself only adds a small amount of extra damage vs no amps.

My best performance is with 7 armpen + 2 weapon amps. I’m not entirely sure why the 7 + 2 is better than just 9 armpen.

 

Disclaimer. I test in lowbies because it’s easier to get the amps I needed through crafting or buying them on the GTN. I don’t know if lvl 75 Armor rating changes things.

You can also test this easily in Mids at lvl 70 by buying the Ossus gear and refunding till you get the amps you need.

Edited October 8, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[merovejec]

After seeing this thread i have started to check the amplifiers of people in ranked. So far only 1 person had them really configured. I have also setup mine, spending around 300 mil for it, to setup 3 toons, but its probably worth it. Its much better to have more dmg than cheaper travel around the universe

[JediMasterAlex]

If you want the formula, it's 100x/(x+26975) for % DR from armor. Full arpen amps (23.5% arpen) means X gets a 0.765 multiplier, negating a decent chunk of their DR from armor.

 

For most specs, the flat damage boost from weapon/force/tech/dot amps will overtake the benefit of that DR chunk, but for specs with mixed white/yellow damage profiles, with little to no internal/elemental damage, the benefit from any of those listed amps will be not be high enough to overtake the DR chunk benefit. Arsenal rage and fury are the best examples, with a couple other specs doing just fine with arpen. Definitely no using arpen on sorcs, ops, snipers, or even PTs (though arpen isn't that much worse than tech dmg for AP).

 

You're not taking into account that players have less armor than pve bosses, so armor pen has less impact, even for arsenal and fury. Again, if you can actually dispute that, I'd love to see the evidence.

[KittyKat_Karrot]

You're not taking into account that players have less armor than pve bosses, so armor pen has less impact, even for arsenal and fury. Again, if you can actually dispute that, I'd love to see the evidence.

 

Definitely have, but yeah I guess I didn't explicitly mention that in my post. Though why else would I bring up the armor formula if I wasn't putting player armor values into it lol

[JediMasterAlex]

Definitely have, but yeah I guess I didn't explicitly mention that in my post. Though why else would I bring up the armor formula if I wasn't putting player armor values into it lol

 

There are different armor values depending on class/spec, yet you provided only one formula, so how is that possible?

[KittyKat_Karrot]

That's what the X is for.....

[JediMasterAlex]

That's what the X is for.....

 

Okay, well when I saw the math actually worked out on armor pen based on player armor, it was inferior to weapon expertise/force sensitivity against every class except jugg/pt tank. So either your formula is different, or the person in the theorycrafting discord was using an incorrect formula of some sort.

[KittyKat_Karrot]

Okay, well when I saw the math actually worked out on armor pen based on player armor, it was inferior to weapon expertise/force sensitivity against every class except jugg/pt tank. So either your formula is different, or the person in the theorycrafting discord was using an incorrect formula of some sort.

 

On what class/spec....

[JediMasterAlex]

On what class/spec....

 

I believe vengeance, arsenal, deception, fury.

 

But you could be right for all I know. I haven't done any of this math myself.

Edited October 10, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[KittyKat_Karrot]

Here is my graph comparing the overage dmg output of weapon amps (red) vs arpen amps (black) for fury, with X obviously being the target's armor value. The intersection of the lines, around 7500 armor, is where it shows arpen amps surpassing weapon amps for armor values higher than that. This is just below the medium armor class value. If I knew I was always only going to hit light armor classes- or even just light and medium- I guess I'd use weapon amps for fury too.

 

Something that may result in arriving at an intersection value a bit higher than the one shown here would be using solely a pve dummy parse as the damage profile you use to assign the percentages of white, kinetic yellow (doesn't go through armor), and internal yellow (goes through armor) dmg that fury does. Raging burst, crush, scream, smash, and choke collectively comprise a higher % of fury's damage done in pvp than they collectively do in pve, and weapon dmg amps don't boost their dmg. Main reasons for this shift in white/yellow dmg between dummy parses and pvp are the 10m range on those abilities (except smash), and the prevalence of anti-white dmg cooldowns. Smaller factors include not using choke or smash on a dummy parse at all (fury smash is meh, but still used sometimes), crush cc immunity, etc.

 

Another small relevant factor that's not included in the graph is the little-known fact that when DR from spec passives and DCDs are added to the calculation, arpen becomes relatively more valuable. This may not be intuitive, but it's how the math works out. To illustrate the principle using an extreme example: if someone had 20% DR from armor, and popped a +75% DR dcd, they would be at 95% DR. If you had enough arpen to reduce their DR from armor down to 15%, their total DR would then be 90%, causing you to do 2x as much damage to them (10% vs 5% dmg going through). When you're hitting something like a deception sin, which basically has constant uptime on both 15% and 9% DR passives, the effect of the principle is definitely noticeable. K i'll stop now.

 

 

And again, the actual performance differences at play here are small, so this is basically just academic.

Edited October 10, 2020 by KittyKat_Karrot

[Zabrak]

Here is my graph comparing the overage dmg output of weapon amps (red) vs arpen amps (black) for fury, with X obviously being the target's armor value. The intersection of the lines, around 7500 armor, is where it shows arpen amps surpassing weapon amps for armor values higher than that. This is just below the medium armor class value. If I knew I was always only going to hit light armor classes- or even just light and medium- I guess I'd use weapon amps for fury too.

 

Something that may result in arriving at an intersection value a bit higher than the one shown here would be using solely a pve dummy parse as the damage profile you use to assign the percentages of white, kinetic yellow (doesn't go through armor), and internal yellow (goes through armor) dmg that fury does. Raging burst, crush, scream, smash, and choke collectively comprise a higher % of fury's damage done in pvp than they collectively do in pve, and weapon dmg amps don't boost their dmg. Main reasons for this shift in white/yellow dmg between dummy parses and pvp are the 10m range on those abilities (except smash), and the prevalence of anti-white dmg cooldowns. Smaller factors include not using choke or smash on a dummy parse at all (fury smash is meh, but still used sometimes), crush cc immunity, etc.

 

Another small relevant factor that's not included in the graph is the little-known fact that when DR from spec passives and DCDs are added to the calculation, arpen becomes relatively more valuable. This may not be intuitive, but it's how the math works out. To illustrate the principle using an extreme example: if someone had 20% DR from armor, and popped a +75% DR dcd, they would be at 95% DR. If you had enough arpen to reduce their DR from armor down to 15%, their total DR would then be 90%, causing you to do 2x as much damage to them (10% vs 5% dmg going through). When you're hitting something like a deception sin, which basically has constant uptime on both 15% and 9% DR passives, the effect of the principle is definitely noticeable. K i'll stop now.

 

 

And again, the actual performance differences at play here are small, so this is basically just academic.

 

Thank you 🙏. I had been looking for a more numerical breakdown of these “situational” benefits of one vs the other, instead of the blanket “this one is better” so I could decide for myself before shelling out another few 100 mil on this toon Your posts nailed it, and yes differences are probably tiny but it’s on principle (+OCD) lol.