xordevoreaux Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 This gives me absolutely zero confidence that anything --- anything-- done to the early class story worlds will be anything less than completely buggy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsillah Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 well, we already know that they can't release a patch without breaking something...so what's new this time around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xordevoreaux Posted July 28, 2020 Author Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) well, we already know that they can't release a patch without breaking something...so what's new this time around? I somehow had lured myself into a sense of false hope. My mistake. Edited July 28, 2020 by xordevoreaux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RikuvonDrake Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 I somehow had lured myself into a sense of false hope. My mistake. dunno how well you know coding and stuff, but editing anything that is like 5+-year-old code sounds like a nightmare, there is a reason we usually update several times yearly, in particular, if there are personal changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xordevoreaux Posted July 28, 2020 Author Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) dunno how well you know coding and stuff, but editing anything that is like 5+-year-old code sounds like a nightmare, there is a reason we usually update several times yearly, in particular, if there are personal changes I spent 27 years programming MS Access/VBA. I know a little bit, but the difference is I was a one-man shop for various companies, so the left hand always knew what the right hand was doing, and I was self-disciplined enough to test my own code, because I was the one and only solution provider: designer, builder, tester, deployer, debugger. It's easy to conclude, properly or otherwise, that there's at least a few people on the EA coding team who either don't know what the hell they're doing and are just stabbing at things, or too undisciplined to bother to take the time to test what they build. Harsh, but it's an easy conclusion based on what we see, old code or otherwise. Edited July 28, 2020 by xordevoreaux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xordevoreaux Posted July 28, 2020 Author Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) What's also disheartening, when it comes to the emperor slot machine, that they've had a full round now to observe that a lot of people clicking on an object overwhelms that object. As someone mentioned in another thread, for the number of people clicking on the damn thing, it makes sense to wall it off in its own instance, or spread a few more around. They should KNOW that by now. It smacks of either a culture of quick fixes because the programmers are under a deadline to complete too much too fast, and subsequently take short cuts hoping the shortcuts work --or-- and this is actually a scarier scenario -- they lack the critical thought skills to piece together what will happen based on player interaction (gee, a lot of people will be clicking on this, maybe we need to do something to accommodate the volume). Edited July 28, 2020 by xordevoreaux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrixxieTriss Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 What's also disheartening, when it comes to the emperor slot machine, that they've had a full round now to observe that a lot of people clicking on an object overwhelms that object. As someone mentioned in another thread, for the number of people clicking on the damn thing, it makes sense to wall it off in its own instance, or spread a few more around. They should KNOW that by now. It smacks of either a culture of quick fixes because the programmers are under a deadline to complete too much too fast, and subsequently take short cuts hoping the shortcuts wqork --or-- and this is actually a scarier scenario -- they lack the critical thought skills to piece together what will happen based on player interaction (gee, a lot of people will be clicking on this, maybe we need to do something to accommodate the volume). That last part requires logic. And unless you know how to get them to understand logic and cause and affect at BioWare, we will continue to have problems as per usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RikuvonDrake Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 I spent 27 years programming MS Access/VBA. I know a little bit, but the difference is I was a one-man shop for various companies, so the left hand always knew what the right hand was doing, and I was self-disciplined enough to test my own code, because I was the one and only solution provider: designer, builder, tester, deployer, debugger. It's easy to conclude, properly or otherwise, that there's at least a few people on the EA coding team who either don't know what the hell they're doing and are just stabbing at things, or too undisciplined to bother to take the time to test what they build. Harsh, but it's an easy conclusion based on what we see, old code or otherwise. no relevant experiance then, based on what devs have commented before and how it looks in the rest of the industry, editing several-year-old code and similar is rarely a good idea and often a project that requires a lot of resources and time. you can, of course, conclude what u want, but if you had some relevant experiance or knowledge I doubt u would be saying the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anishor Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 (edited) I spent 27 years programming MS Access/VBA. I know a little bit, but the difference is I was a one-man shop for various companies, so the left hand always knew what the right hand was doing, and I was self-disciplined enough to test my own code, because I was the one and only solution provider: designer, builder, tester, deployer, debugger. It's easy to conclude, properly or otherwise, that there's at least a few people on the EA coding team who either don't know what the hell they're doing and are just stabbing at things, or too undisciplined to bother to take the time to test what they build. Harsh, but it's an easy conclusion based on what we see, old code or otherwise. Just going to throw this out there but....working on a VBA/MS Access compared to working on a live service MMO is like doing single digit addition is to a multi-variable calculus and thermodynamics problem. Edited July 29, 2020 by Anishor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xordevoreaux Posted July 29, 2020 Author Share Posted July 29, 2020 Just going to throw this out there but....working on a VBA/MS Access compared to working on a live service MMO is like doing single digit addition is to a multi-variable calculus and thermodynamics problem. The primary concern of design, development, testing, deploying, and debugging are the same. At one point, I had 27 databases live in one company, and one of them had 17 million records entered into it every year keeping track of 85,000 contractors, with 10 to 20 simultaneous users. It was more than a couple lines of VBA script, I assure you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Malganus Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 well, we already know that they can't release a patch without breaking something...so what's new this time around? Or release a patch that actually fixes anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 (edited) The primary concern of design, development, testing, deploying, and debugging are the same. At one point, I had 27 databases live in one company, and one of them had 17 million records entered into it every year keeping track of 85,000 contractors, with 10 to 20 simultaneous users. It was more than a couple lines of VBA script, I assure you. That's not a bad size, for a 1 man operation Try not to extend your experience beyond that though, working for yourself and working on a team are very different. You need to coordinate project management, system design, engineers, UI/UX designers, and QA, all with the bean counters breathing down your neck. Wearing all those hats yourself removes the interpersonal and communication complexity, but is severely limited in scale Also based on Steam numbers alone, there are around 20-30k simultaneous users at prime time who require low latency access to the servers to maintain a synchronized environment. 10-20 simultaneous users in a data archive scenario is peanuts in comparison. As for the topic of the hinted redesign, I think people are letting their imaginations run wild on them. This is hardly going to be a change of game play, that would be silly from a ROI POV. About all I think we can expect to see is applying the graphical improvements that were first introduced in KOTFE to earlier content. Better lighting, better use of the camera and the like. That is all. Edited July 29, 2020 by MadDutchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xordevoreaux Posted July 29, 2020 Author Share Posted July 29, 2020 That's not a bad size, for a 1 man operation Try not to extend your experience beyond that though, working for yourself and working on a team are very different.. I understand your point, but I never said that's all I did. I've put in more than 27 years in my career, and sometimes had more than one plate flying through the air while I juggled different opportunities, which includes having worked as a direct-hire employee in corporate environments, some which understood the ins and outs of a properly planned SDLC, and some which didn't. I've worked as part of a team in corporate environments for a tradeshow web portal, a text-to-speech developer, a large-scale medical software company, among others, all of them strictly software houses. What I learned at those companies directly translates into my observation about the software development life cycle CF we're seeing here with EA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeisjedi Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 It's just going to be updated graphics from the KOTFE/KOTET type most likely. I'll welcome that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xordevoreaux Posted July 29, 2020 Author Share Posted July 29, 2020 It's just going to be updated graphics from the KOTFE/KOTET type most likely. I'll welcome that. That alone would be welcome, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Malganus Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 Anything done will be simple cut and paste "improvements". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlameYOL Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 It's just going to be updated graphics from the KOTFE/KOTET type most likely. I'll welcome that. Great so now not only can I have massive amounts of lag on Onderon and Mek-Sha but on vanilla planets too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elimatorxv Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 Great so now not only can I have massive amounts of lag on Onderon and Mek-Sha but on vanilla planets too! well you are quotting your own signature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tofu_Shark Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 no relevant experiance then, based on what devs have commented before and how it looks in the rest of the industry, editing several-year-old code and similar is rarely a good idea and often a project that requires a lot of resources and time. you can, of course, conclude what u want, but if you had some relevant experiance or knowledge I doubt u would be saying the same It is only unwise if the coding is poorly documented, which seems to be the case with the game. You would think they would know better. This isn't something that is set in stone. MMOs change and adapt all the time. It's just going to be updated graphics from the KOTFE/KOTET type most likely. I'll welcome that. Then why didn't they just say that? The way the phrased it makes it sound like the removal of more content is a highly likely possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilathrone Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 I remember I've read something years ago one guy from Austin said that it's a hacked together spaghetti code and even modifying one little thing can cause havoc in other areas. Also many veterans left the company who had knowledge about the engine, furthermore Austin got SW:ToR like here you go fellas, from now on You support this. Not really any documentation or training, have fun guyz. I tried to find the source, but did not have any luck. Maybe it was just a dream. If BioWare is anything like my company, then the aces go to a profitable new project while you put the juniors and less skillful seniors to support previous projects. Hope this is not the case at BW. Also hope none of swtor devs read this and get confidence issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xordevoreaux Posted July 30, 2020 Author Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) I remember I've read something years ago one guy from Austin said that it's a hacked together spaghetti code and even modifying one little thing can cause havoc in other areas. Also many veterans left the company who had knowledge about the engine, furthermore Austin got SW:ToR like here you go fellas, from now on You support this. Not really any documentation or training, have fun guyz. I tried to find the source, but did not have any luck. Maybe it was just a dream. If BioWare is anything like my company, then the aces go to a profitable new project while you put the juniors and less skillful seniors to support previous projects. Hope this is not the case at BW. Also hope none of swtor devs read this and get confidence issues I'm totally with you on them breaking old code for not understanding how to thread their way through so much spaghetti left behind by devs long gone. They practically admitted as much when they released the updated character preview window (they jettisoned the code for the old one). I don't know any more than anyone else does about what the world design update would include because EA has not been forthcoming with details, but I'm settling on the idea, as others have, that the intent is just some texture updates and maybe some geometry updates (retrofitting the temple or the taxi landing area or whatever, but that's me speculating). I update textures to 3D poly meshes in games all the time: https://sims4studio.com/thread/19655/xors-studio https://modthesims.info/d/644768/buyable-executron-bookshelf-high-resolution-recolor.html https://modthesims.info/d/644767/princess-cordelia-raised-wood-set.html Texture change-outs and minor geometry updates don't require a code change. The only time a geometry update would require a code change is if the change interfered with NPC pathing (the route they walk back and forth) or if they move or add instances (like adding heroic instances on Tython) which would require scripting, NPC placement, programming rewards, the whole nine yards. Edited July 30, 2020 by xordevoreaux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xordevoreaux Posted July 30, 2020 Author Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) What would really be nice (indulging some fantasies) for the world lighting to change, i.,e., a day/night cycle. That would break practically every baked-on reflective surface, spot lighting, and fake lighting (light that's just "painted on" and not light all, like the backwash of light against a wall in an outside area). The result would be weird, having lighting effects positioned and set up for a day-time area, and still illuminating (or illuminated) at night. Edited July 30, 2020 by xordevoreaux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardrossan Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 I remember I've read something years ago one guy from Austin said that it's a hacked together spaghetti code and even modifying one little thing can cause havoc in other areas. Also many veterans left the company who had knowledge about the engine, furthermore Austin got SW:ToR like here you go fellas, from now on You support this. Not really any documentation or training, have fun guyz. I tried to find the source, but did not have any luck. Maybe it was just a dream. If BioWare is anything like my company, then the aces go to a profitable new project while you put the juniors and less skillful seniors to support previous projects. Hope this is not the case at BW. Also hope none of swtor devs read this and get confidence issues Maybe Jeff Nyman. Does anyone remember the link to Nyman's blog or his forum username? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicTerror Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 What would really be nice (indulging some fantasies) for the world lighting to change, i.,e., a day/night cycle. That would break practically every baked-on reflective surface, spot lighting, and fake lighting (light that's just "painted on" and not light all, like the backwash of light against a wall in an outside area). The result would be weird, having lighting effects positioned and set up for a day-time area, and still illuminating (or illuminated) at night. Oh wow, can you imagine the car wreck that would look like if the devs tried something that bold in one of their patches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) Maybe Jeff Nyman. Does anyone remember the link to Nyman's blog or his forum username? Kryptonomic = Jeff Nyman This may get taken down by the SWTOR team or perhaps it belongs more in "Off Topic." Not sure. I was originally going to post this here as a thread, but instead I posted this article: A SWTOR Context Obviously there is a lot of sentiment around the game, it's current development, and it's possible future. I've found in a few of these conversations that people do appreciate a bit of context. Historical context is often the best of all. So that's what the above is. It's not White Knight content; it's not so called "Hater" content. It simply is what it is: providing some context, at least from one person's point of view. If curious, I also have some posts on SWTOR regarding testing. None of this reveals any internal details of the current team nor any details of internal operations, both now and in the past. The definitive story on SWTOR will likely be published at some later date. And it certainly won't be by me. Thread with lots of his posts etc. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=968223 Edited July 30, 2020 by Lhancelot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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