Why bother making a PTS Response Thread?

[jedimasterjac]

I'm genuinely trying to understand why we bother with a PTS at all, or why you guys would make an official feedback thread, if you're just going to ignore it.

 

Genuinely speaking, I'm not very critical of this game. I love it; I don't make flamer threads. The change to the social window is really terrible though. It's the next in a long line of UI changes that cannot be as easily edited as the old UI; that do not match the theme of the old UI; and that are annoyingly obtuse for no good reason.

 

I can understand if you had a prerogative that couldn't be stopped -- "You guys need to find a way to advertise more CM stuff in-game." But why change the whole social bar to do that? I really don't get it. It sucks.

 

Like, at least don't bother pretending to ask for feedback, when you're going to ignore any thread of overwhelmingly negative feedback?

 

sigh.

[Estelindis]

It's hard for me to understand too. I don't like this change and said as much in the PTS forum. Many others did the same. Was it really so important to them to make this change in spite of everything we said?

[jedimasterjac]

It's hard for me to understand too. I don't like this change and said as much in the PTS forum. Many others did the same. Was it really so important to them to make this change in spite of everything we said?

 

Right? Why change the whole social bar? Just make a stupid pop-up window on login.

[alphamalebsr]

Speak with your wallet!.. Seems to be a my new recurring theme with all these MMO's now..

 

They do something the majority don't like and refuse to budge on it, do something they don't like an refuse to pay to play or buy anything and just move on...Time to take your power back from these companies and people.

 

I know I for one will be avoiding the cartel market like the plague now and just wait for my subscriber coins. My little payback for making me have to PVE to PVP and this silly little bar on my screen that is difficult to move and seemed to be a big failure on the PTS...

[Qouivandes]

While there are several things i would like from the CM...there is nothing on there that i would want. I am OK with outfitting my toons with what i can get in game or already have.

[MagSul]

My initial reaction was confusion and mild irritation and that reflects I think in my thoughts in the other threads. However! Now that I've had a bit more time to think about it... Once I moved it to where I wanted it, I was able to get used to it while doing a flashpoint.

 

I figured that I am in no way required to ever expand it, so I need never actually view the advertisements. In that sense, I feel almost like we've been done a favour. It feels like the team had to do something and this was their best option - as jedimasterjac alluded to in the original post.

 

However, I must have enabled moveable secondary windows to move the bar. If I then disable that, the bar in question snaps back to its default position, meaning I have to keep moveable secondary windows enabled. This will be frustrating for a lot of people until it's fixed.

 

As many people have already stated, it can't be modified by the interface editor. No opacity or size options outside of global scaling. That and the chat window cannot seem to be adjusted either? Then there's the scrolling chat issue after clicking on the new bar and finally, the bar doesn't seem to completely match the colour scheme of the rest of the UI either. It seems to stand out more.

 

It felt like an unnecessary and undesired change pretty much across the board, but it's particularly perplexing that it was implemented after what many perceived was overwhelming negative feedback. In that sense, I suppose a lot of of the players feel like they were slapped.

 

While I'd rather it was just put back the way it was, I don't think that's going to happen. If they can address the interface editing problems and other issues, I have no doubt that most people will forget all of this pretty quickly, because they'll never actually expand the bar, as I mentioned above.

 

tl;dnr: Poor reveal, but fixable.

Edited June 24, 2020 by MagSul

[jedimasterjac]

While I'd rather it was just put back the way it was, I don't think that's going to happen. If they can address the interface editing problems and other issues, I have no doubt that most people will forget all of this pretty quickly, because they'll never actually expand the bar, as I mentioned above.

.

 

My problem with it is that it looks completely different from the rest of the UI. It is round. The rest of the UI is not. And it is not the same shade of blue as the rest of the elements.

 

It looks like my really basic indie projects where I just slap on whatever UI I can while testing things.

 

It also does not communicate information as effectively as the old UI. I know what each symbol represents; does a new player know what the magnifying glass means, versus the three people icon (which is identical to the group finder icon), versus the flag? Compare that to simply saying, "Planet Name", "Guild," and "Friends."

Edited June 24, 2020 by jedimasterjac

[MagSul]

I agree with you wholeheartedly!

[Xhelis]

It's EA/BW's way of making you think they're listening. It's an illusion.

 

At the end of the day or patch cycle, EA/BW is going to do what's in their best interest consequences be damned.

 

It's as if EA/BW has forgotten we're paying customers.

[jedimasterjac]

It's EA/BW's way of making you think they're listening. It's an illusion.

 

At the end of the day or patch cycle, EA/BW is going to do what's in their best interest consequences be damned.

 

It's as if EA/BW has forgotten we're paying customers.

 

I love when people get so close to understanding that capitalism doesn't care about consumers, and then, right at the very edge of getting it, they revert to, "We're paying so they should care."

[Darittha]

already said it on some other thread but ill say it again: been subbed since vanilla but until this is fixed or better: reverted back to previous UI social bar ill just let my current subscription run out. not subbing until its gone. Edited June 24, 2020 by Darittha

[Xhelis]

Even McDonald's appreciates it's customers. They aren't going to do anything for you, but being a customer is appreciated.

 

Yes, yes, we all know how Capitalism works. I'm never shocked that companies couldn't care less about it's customers. This is EA we're talking about here. They're beholden to people who truly don't care about anything but profits. The upside of Capitalism is that you don't have to give your money to anyone for any reason. We are free to spend our money else where.

 

I don't give a monkeys about EA/BW or what they think of me. They do care about my sub money though, They do care about the additional coins I purchase.

 

They can feel how ever they want. I can spend my money how ever I want. If I have determined that a product is no longer proving anything to me for my money, for whatever reason I deem appropriate, I'll take my money somewhere else. Whoever is making the decisions can explain it to someone who only cares about money where my money went and why it went.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Xhelis

[Tsillah]

It's hard for me to understand too. I don't like this change and said as much in the PTS forum. Many others did the same. Was it really so important to them to make this change in spite of everything we said?

They don't tell you what the PTS is actually for. You're doing testing for them for the things they want and need. You're not a customer being taken seriously, you're an unpaid employee who is made to believe that your opinion matters, while all you're doing is making sure their purposes are met.

[Ylliarus]

I believe this picture sums it up, alright.

 

Seriously, it is a huge disappointment that the development team was not listening to the feedback people were giving about the new social UI. They should have listened to what players actually were saying.

 

Also, it is just a huge disappointment they chose to devote development to this, especially since this was something no player was asking for. And the things that players are actually requesting? Like the hood toggle, new appearance customization options for the Twi'lek, or soloable Seeker Droid and Macrobinocular missions and so on and so forth? All those things are seemingly being ignored...

 

Revert to the old Social UI! The new UI is horrendous and is not going to work.

[SteveTheCynic]

I figured that I am in no way required to ever expand it, so I need never actually view the advertisements. In that sense, I feel almost like we've been done a favour. It feels like the team had to do something and this was their best option - as jedimasterjac alluded to in the original post.

I wouldn't count on that. It already pops up advertising stuff that's visible in the on-screen mission log on every one of my characters that I haven't logged in on yet. (And it pops *behind* the chat window, but that's another story...)

 

I'm excpecting that there will be a new round of complaints after daily reset at noon GMT tomorrow, when it pops up the next time you log in, and perhaps, if you're logged in at that exact moment, it pops up in-game then. If not, I think we can count on it opening up at the first possible opportunity after the weekly reset at noon GMT on Tuesday, or maybe at 6pm GMT on Tuesday, when Conquest cycles.

 

That's a *prediction*, not a guarantee, but I really don't think I'm wrong. It could be worse, though. At one stage on PTS it was permanently empty for me, and reopened every time I changed maps...

[Yojadi]

Yeah I don't get the need for PTS on this MMO, they clearly don't read it. But I mean....are you really surprised? every single CM item typically goes through PTS, problems are found and reported and yet every single CM item is released broken and never fixed.

I understand some stuff can't be fixed, but rocket boost shooting side ways from jet packs? the top part of some weapons missing in cutscenes? ect

[Tsillah]

Yeah I don't get the need for PTS on this MMO, they clearly don't read it. But I mean....are you really surprised? every single CM item typically goes through PTS, problems are found and reported and yet every single CM item is released broken and never fixed.

I understand some stuff can't be fixed, but rocket boost shooting side ways from jet packs? the top part of some weapons missing in cutscenes? ect

So what you're telling me is that you got screwed sideways?

 

Sorry, couldn't resist but it is true.

[Nevaeh-Heaven]

I'm genuinely trying to understand why we bother with a PTS at all, or why you guys would make an official feedback thread, if you're just going to ignore it.

 

Genuinely speaking, I'm not very critical of this game. I love it; I don't make flamer threads. The change to the social window is really terrible though. It's the next in a long line of UI changes that cannot be as easily edited as the old UI; that do not match the theme of the old UI; and that are annoyingly obtuse for no good reason.

 

I can understand if you had a prerogative that couldn't be stopped -- "You guys need to find a way to advertise more CM stuff in-game." But why change the whole social bar to do that? I really don't get it. It sucks.

 

Like, at least don't bother pretending to ask for feedback, when you're going to ignore any thread of overwhelmingly negative feedback?

 

sigh.

 

Do i think the new bar on screen was a good thing to do? No, not really. Then again it is not such a big issue for a bar which is small moveable to warrant half a dozen or so threads about it? I agree with you that on so many things player feedback is largely ignored, however, it's not always going to be the most considered freedback and there are very good reasons for that.

[DarkTergon]

Do i think the new bar on screen was a good thing to do? No, not really. Then again it is not such a big issue for a bar which is small moveable to warrant half a dozen or so threads about it? I agree with you that on so many things player feedback is largely ignored, however, it's not always going to be the most considered freedback and there are very good reasons for that.

 

The problem is they are using time, which could be devoted to fixing excisting problems, instead of giving us more problems, and reasons to be pissed of with the UI. Firstly when you load it, it's placed in a crap place, you can move it, but when you go to another location, it resets. Not for all, but it has for a few. Secondly, it's opened, with a big picture of CM stuff, which has nothing to do with gameplay, it's just an ad bar that they have shoved in our faces. You click it to go away, you move, and bang, it's there again. If I want to know what's on offer I go to the CM icon, which we already have. Now these are two problems, the team is going to have to waste time fixing, becaue they brought in a change that wasn't needed, and only wanted BY THEM to shove CM tems under our noses.

Now you can say, it's a simple click, but when you have 80+ toons, and it pops back everytime you move.....it's annoying

Edited June 24, 2020 by DarkTergon

[Ylliarus]

The problem is they are using time, which could be devoted to fixing excisting problems, instead of giving us more problems, and reasons to be pissed of with the UI.

 

This, this is the main issue with the redesign of the UI bar. It was literally not necessary and needed absolutely no development time spent on it. It was perfectly fine the way it was and instead, they could have devoted that precious development time that is now wasted on something no one likes, on bugfixes, QA testing of their patch or on things that players have actually been asking for, for years.

 

They just needed to take a look at the Suggestion Box to find things that players actually want to see in the game. No one in there was asking for a social UI bar redesign that shoves the Cartel Market even more in our faces.

 

The new UI bar is poorly designed, yes. But it's exactly as you say, DarkTergon, they could have spent all the time and resources they put into that redesign, into actually doing something useful within the game.

[JediBoadicea]

I'm genuinely trying to understand why we bother with a PTS at all, or why you guys would make an official feedback thread, if you're just going to ignore it.

 

Genuinely speaking, I'm not very critical of this game. I love it; I don't make flamer threads. The change to the social window is really terrible though. It's the next in a long line of UI changes that cannot be as easily edited as the old UI; that do not match the theme of the old UI; and that are annoyingly obtuse for no good reason.

 

I can understand if you had a prerogative that couldn't be stopped -- "You guys need to find a way to advertise more CM stuff in-game." But why change the whole social bar to do that? I really don't get it. It sucks.

 

Like, at least don't bother pretending to ask for feedback, when you're going to ignore any thread of overwhelmingly negative feedback?

 

sigh.

 

In the almost nine years that I have been playing this game, I have been most of the time very positive and supportive of the devs. I think it's important to show basic human decency and respect because, duh, people are human beings, and I still love a lot about this game. But I can't deny that over the last three years I have grown increasingly disillusioned, frustrated, and critical, because it seems like things are just sliding consistently downhill.

 

By "things" in this case I mean the apparent lack of attention the dev team is giving to quality control, to listening to feedback, to putting simple care and pride into the quality of their work. As the player the overwhelming feeling I'm left with is that SWTOR is being worked on primarily by people who are just intending to pass through and are not interested in making a quality product. I'm not saying that's true, but whatever is impacting the team's ability to do their work with care is creating that resulting impression.

 

And I wanted to quote the OP's first post because I think the way the PTS is being handled is a prime example of everything that feels so wrong right now. It feels increasingly pointless for us to provide feedback on the PTS, because there seems to be no responsiveness to it at all. It's as if by the time something goes up on the PTS, the end result has already been firmly decided, nothing we can say is actually going to change any decision that's been made, the only purpose we serve on PTS is as bug-catchers.

 

The last time I remember the PTS experience feeling at all responsive was with the Rishi SH. Even then a lot of very important stuff we called out got ignored, but even so it was very clear that we were indeed being listened to and taken seriously, and a lot of positive changes were also made. But since then, every PTS experience to follow has felt less authentic, and more pointless and insulting.

 

What finally put me over the edge was 6.0 crafting. The amount of feedback we gave on the absolute cluster@*%$ that was 6.0 crafting was overwhelming. Spreadsheets, hard data, countless hours of exhaustive testing. The absolute unanimous consensus was that it was a disaster that needed not just to be tweaked, but to be completely overhauled. And not one word of it mattered. The eventual "tweak" they did was so minimal it made it very obvious that in fact they didn't care what we'd said, they fully intended to go with their original plan no matter what, and were just going to dash a few blots of new paint on it so they could say they'd "listened" and made a change.

 

Normally I would never be this harsh in my criticism. I believe very strongly that constructive criticism is more important. But things have gotten pretty egregious, and I'm just so frustrated. I'm frustrated because this game has been a huge part of my life for so long, and I want it to continue to have a long life, but I am finding it harder and harder to justify staying engaged with it. Whoever on the dev team can track my expenditure of money on the CM over the course of the game's history will see that disillusionment reflected very starkly in my spending.

 

I actually don't mind being a bug-catcher on the PTS. One of the things I said in the feedback about 6.0 crafting was that if the dev team didn't have the resources to actually run the math or test their systems such that they needed us to do that for them on the PTS, then that's fine, whatever, I'll happily be free labor - as long as they actually listen to what we say and be open to making the changes!!!! If they've already made all their decisions then don't insult us and take advantage of our time and our passion, because taken advantage of is exactly how a lot of your PTS testers and loyal players are feeling.

 

To me, one of the signs of the lack of care and basic thoughtfulness that is being given to the quality of a lot of the game's recent work can be exemplified in the decorations they keep releasing that have a duplicate name to a previously released decoration, thus overwriting previous decorations and blocking people from access to assets they paid real money for. They've done it repeatedly, and some of those overwrites have gone unaddressed for two years now. Someone doing a check of a deco's new name against the database to make sure it isn't a duplicate is absolutely basic, bare minimum quality control that takes seconds. If they can't be bothered to do even that, when we've called out this bug for years, how can we believe they're giving care to other things that get rolled out?

 

I hate feeling this way. I want the devs to know that I still support them, I want them to keep working on this game, I want to keep playing this game. But there's a lot of goodwill that is being lost here, and that's bad. I think it's important for them to know that and to take some serious steps toward being more responsive to PTS feedback and more attentive to their quality control.

[Lhancelot]

They don't tell you what the PTS is actually for. You're doing testing for them for the things they want and need. You're not a customer being taken seriously, you're an unpaid employee who is made to believe that your opinion matters, while all you're doing is making sure their purposes are met.

 

Well, and I thought I was cynical nowadays. lol

[Lhancelot]

So who is supposed to be communicating to the devs our feedback and do they? Hmm. Who knows?

[DzastinBiberi]

You know what's sad?

There are few very constructive and real post in this thread that will never going to be seen by anyone in BioWare.

 

They just don't care my friends. They proved it over the years.

SWTOR is a child that nobody wants, yet they gotta feed their child in order to keep it alive.

 

History taught us that SWTOR is also a "jumping point" for BW employers. Ben Irving, worked in support, got upgraded to this game's leader, failed with 5.0, moved to Anthem, failed that one too, got fired.

 

Keith worked in support, got upgraded, etc, and that's just the recent history of this game.

 

The reason why devs for this game are so out of touch with this game is probably 'cause when there's something to work on in SWTOR, they grab ppl who are available atm to do the work that needs to be done.

 

As soon as you realise this, the more relaxed you're gonna be.

I've found myself being stressed about the amount of zero fu'cks given by devs for this game, then I went the same route, stop caring and just play it when you wanna play it.

 

I've been on PTS several times, I gave lots of feedback, reported lots of bugs, gave out suggestions on how to improve "stuff" and guess what? Nobody bothered to read it, they just went with their original plan.

 

With 5.0 on PTS, we told them about their CXP system that it's a disaster, that they're gonna lose players again, it should be improved if nothing else etc and like before, our feedback was for nothing, we were just and still are, free labor for them for testing.

 

And I fail to see the point of those tests and PTS in global, when you're not even gonna bother with the feedback you're getting.

They don't care about their own game and neither should we.

If this wasn't Star Wars, I would have left this game years ago without looking back.

[Damask_Rose]

By "things" in this case I mean the apparent lack of attention the dev team is giving to quality control, to listening to feedback, to putting simple care and pride into the quality of their work. As the player the overwhelming feeling I'm left with is that SWTOR is being worked on primarily by people who are just intending to pass through and are not interested in making a quality product. I'm not saying that's true, but whatever is impacting the team's ability to do their work with care is creating that resulting impression.

 

It feels to me like they have some interns that are doing busy work. How else can we explain all of the completely unnecessary, unwanted and poorly implemented changes? I just want to shake someone! If you can't figure out how to make changes to the UI editor, don't mess with the UI!