What’s considered OP for Damage Per Sec

[TrixxieTriss]

It’s been about 6 weeks since I had and proper 8v8 maps at lvl 75 until yesterday when I got a void star.

 

There was a Sorc on the other team who did exceptional damage while they were heavily focused and it doesn’t seem real

 

At the end the scoreboard said they’d done 8,604,835 or 11771 DPS.

 

It wasn’t a long match either. I just don’t see how that amount of sustained damage is possible unless you are free casting on all 8 players clustered together, which we weren’t.

 

I remember dueling the Sorc at one point on my sniper and he wasn’t hitting that hard and I killed him twice (I didn’t die all match)

 

What am I missing here?

Edited June 9, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[-Ashton-]

6.0. I’d say 15k dps in 8v8 is good, 18k is very good and 20k+ is god.

 

All attainable by the following :-

 

Player is DOT spec

Opposition is majority melee

Opposition tunnels a single target who is kept up for a long duration

Player has uninterrupted dot spread and cleave

Opposition healers don’t cleanse dots

Player doesn’t die

Opposition doesn’t die

 

I’ve done 19k as lethality, whilst only killing 3 players. It just fluff damage

 

 

 

What are you missing? Well you seem to spend the majority of your time on these forums posting absolute nonsense, so that’s probably where you’re going wrong

[TrixxieTriss]

 

 

What are you missing? Well you seem to spend the majority of your time on these forums posting absolute nonsense, so that’s probably where you’re going wrong

 

Rude.

[merovejec]

Rude.

 

You do post quite a lot Trixxie and its not always something that can be discussed as it seems that only specifically you experience the weirdest things in the game.

 

Anyway, he played either dot or lightning, both have great AOE when the enemies are grouped and in voidstar, well, people tend to group at the door so he could have been freecasting from afar.

[TrixxieTriss]

You do post quite a lot Trixxie and its not always something that can be discussed as it seems that only specifically you experience the weirdest things in the game.

 

Anyway, he played either dot or lightning, both have great AOE when the enemies are grouped and in voidstar, well, people tend to group at the door so he could have been freecasting from afar.

 

Honestly, you’re accusing me of posting too much? LoL, pot, meet kettle

 

And if you read my post, I stated they weren’t free casting as I was personally on them the whole time and so was a Jugg.

Yes, it was AOE damage that helped them because they were using the elemental tactical, but I found it amazing because they spent a lot of time kitting and LoSing, which obviously impacts the ability to do sustained damage.

 

I did take a shot of the screen at the end. If you need me to upload to Imgur I will need to edit out all the names. Which is why I haven’t done so already.

 

I do get that high dps can be achieved in arena because it’s constant combat. But in 8 man you have lulls in the constant fighting due to you or the enemy dying and waiting for the respawn.

In the case of this Sorc, I personally killed them twice and put them in the respawn for a bit and they also spent a bunch of time running away to heal up.

 

All of which reduced the ability to sustain such dps. This is why I made the thread because I wanted to know if something has changed.

[avenger_online]

You do post quite a lot Trixxie and its not always something that can be discussed as it seems that only specifically you experience the weirdest things in the game.

 

Anyway, he played either dot or lightning, both have great AOE when the enemies are grouped and in voidstar, well, people tend to group at the door so he could have been freecasting from afar.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.

Mero you never fail to make me laughter, out of everyone here you spend the most hours typing your big long essays here on the forum and your accusing someone else of posting too much, this is why you are the eternal meme of this game.

[Lodinn]

I don't PvP any much and given how some 6m is not too far-fetched to hit on a sorc for pre-75 regs... Don't see that huge of an issue here.

 

On the contrary, it's hard to get actually close to that dps in arenas (at least for me) cause the "constant fighting" there is just a cc/kiting galore, no time to land these sweet force storms on 6 people.

 

As for "they weren't freecasting" - you've been there and seen it firsthand, we weren't, hard to draw conclusions. If anything, elemental tactical makes it possible to aoe rather hard while running around - a luxury you don't have pre-75. VS is one of the craziest maps for hitting dps numbers cause of all the concentrated fighting on 2 spots only, with people commonly less spread out than even in hypergates. Objective-wise it hardly matters though but I'm not fully convinced people care about those enough anyway.

[merovejec]

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.

Mero you never fail to make me laughter, out of everyone here you spend the most hours typing your big long essays here on the forum and your accusing someone else of posting too much, this is why you are the eternal meme of this game.

 

I am bored at work, what should I say

 

When I get home I am too much to do with family, then again I have time in the evening when they are off to bed. A post doesnt really take a lot of time and as you can see by my posts, I dont even think, I just write

[merovejec]

Honestly, you’re accusing me of posting too much? LoL, pot, meet kettle

 

I didnt mean it to be offensive, -Ashton- said that you post a lot and I just agreed with him, I didnt want to make it sound bad, was just like when someone says something and a guy back in the crows shouts Yeah! to confirm. But what I said about you experiencing stuff noone else does sometimes is strange

 

And if you read my post, I stated they weren’t free casting as I was personally on them the whole time and so was a Jugg.

Yes, it was AOE damage that helped them because they were using the elemental tactical, but I found it amazing because they spent a lot of time kitting and LoSing, which obviously impacts the ability to do sustained damage.

 

There are still many things to this, your ping isnt exactly the best and if that toon was kitting lag could cause him to be someplace else as you see him. Not sure, you never posted your gameplay for us to check, but you do play on US servers in the middle of US from Australia.

 

I do get that high dps can be achieved in arena because it’s constant combat. But in 8 man you have lulls in the constant fighting due to you or the enemy dying and waiting for the respawn.

In the case of this Sorc, I personally killed them twice and put them in the respawn for a bit and they also spent a bunch of time running away to heal up.

 

The more gear we get the more the damage meters in the game move up. Imagine that the HP we had at launch of the game was 13k-15k, look at the HP now, we are running around with 200k-300k. So overall even if you have bothered the player he is stil able to do a lot of dmg. So i think its normal.

[Sharkii_boy]

11.7k dps for a sorc under heavy focus implies that they were multidotting and using elemental convection on stacked enemies. It should be a fairly standard number for a sorc who has put some effort into learning how to dps and then goes up against regs players, who tend stack up more than they should and also don't use CC's very strategically.

[AndriusAjax]

"What's considered OP for DPS" is kind of a weirdly phrased question. You could take it a few ways...

 

I mean, are you asking what amount of DPS indicates that a spec/class is OP? Or are you asking what amount of DPS indicates that a player is OP/good?

 

I'll assume the former, but either way, 11K by a dot spreader is not... OP/great/over-tuned/whatever. Its good. It's fine.

 

I mean, doesn't it come down to the game itself? VS is particularly great for high DPS games. And the fact that the match was short doesn't mean much. It's actually helpful for a match to be shorter when you simply want high damage per second. [emphasis on the word 'simply'.] In some short 8v8s or 4v4s, you can see some godly per-second stats - that's the nature of small sample sizes, crits, and up-time (or rather lack of potential downtime).

 

I'd say 14k is pretty solid evidence that a dot spreading sorc knows exactly what they're doing in a typical 8v8. That said, some teams' entire strategy in 8s is to stack in one area, hope the opponent stacks, and simply mash their rotation. And if they queue with a healer/premade, it increases their up-time as they're not rolling, kiting, aka wasting GCDs on surviving. For these teams, certainly winning, and sometimes even killing, isn't the goal. Just the per-second stats. So just looking at the final scoreboard's per-second stats can be a simplistic view on what's actually OP.

 

Here's an image of 11k DPS on a scrapper scoundrel, also not OP/great, but decent because it was 3-cap CW where we had to keep moving from node to node. So 11k on a dot spreader is certainly not OP.

 

In any event, imo, all dots are a bit overtuned right now because of how much better periodic amps are compared to ST amps. But while dot spreading is definitely standing out in scoreboards, I'm not 100% sure it necessarily equates to more wins or even kills...

Edited June 9, 2020 by AndriusAjax

[septru]

I can't speak for 8v8s but in 4v4s...

 

For cleave specs like (Lightning, pyro, anni, leth): 10k is average, 11-12k is good, 13-14 is great, 15-16 is godly.

Typically leth and pyro will be on the higher side, ling in the middle, and anni on the end. This is all dependent on how the cleave btw.

 

For single target (conc, decep, mm sniper, arsenal): 7-8k is average, 9-10k is good. 11-12 is great.

This is dependent on how hard you are being controlled or focused.

 

For AP PT: 10k is average. 11-12k is good. 13-14k is great.

 

But this is for 4v4s not 8v8s.

[StrikePrice]

Any amount of damage that can kill another player is OP in SWtoR PvP. Other players should not die. They should have self-heals, guards, dcd's and they should take no damage that they don't want to take. Taking damage in PvP should be consensual. I should get a popup asking if it's okay for another player to damage me in a Warzone.

[TrixxieTriss]

I can't speak for 8v8s but in 4v4s...

 

For cleave specs like (Lightning, pyro, anni, leth): 10k is average, 11-12k is good, 13-14 is great, 15-16 is godly.

Typically leth and pyro will be on the higher side, ling in the middle, and anni on the end. This is all dependent on how the cleave btw.

 

For single target (conc, decep, mm sniper, arsenal): 7-8k is average, 9-10k is good. 11-12 is great.

This is dependent on how hard you are being controlled or focused.

 

For AP PT: 10k is average. 11-12k is good. 13-14k is great.

 

But this is for 4v4s not 8v8s.

 

Yeah, this makes perfect sense in 4’s but not 8’s (from my perspective)

[AndriusAjax]

Yeah, this makes perfect sense in 4’s but not 8’s (from my perspective)

 

I don't think average DPS in 8s is necessarily higher or lower than the average DPS witnessed in 4s. 4s can just represent a cleaner picture of one's DPS. 8s muddy those waters with things like objectives (DPS reduction), downtime from dying (DPS reduction), and having double the body count to cleave (DPS increase). So the potential for DPS is theoretically higher in 8s, but the length of the match, and the other factors I mentioned above can nullify that benefit.

 

I mean, to be clear, for me, my average DPS is much higher in 4s. There's no objectives, so I'm left to punching things. But for other, more DPS-focused people, I can see them having higher DPS in 8s bc of their cleave and propensity to hang around areas where opponents are stacking. I'd guess it all balances out - maybe leaning towards slightly lower overall DPS in 8s - but really, you should just look at the context of the 8v8 to determine why DPS is higher or lower than usual.

Edited June 9, 2020 by AndriusAjax

[septru]

I don't think average DPS in 8s is necessarily higher or lower than the average DPS witnessed in 4s. 4s can just represent a cleaner picture of one's DPS. 8s muddy those waters with things like objectives (DPS reduction), downtime from dying (DPS reduction), and having double the body count to cleave (DPS increase). So the potential for DPS is theoretically higher in 8s, but the length of the match, and the other factors I mentioned above can nullify that benefit.

 

I mean, to be clear, for me, my average DPS is much higher in 4s. There's no objectives, so I'm left to punching things. But for other, more DPS-focused people, I can see them having higher DPS in 8s bc of their cleave and propensity to hang around areas where opponents are stacking. I'd guess it all balances out - maybe leaning towards slightly lower overall DPS in 8s - but really, you should just look at the context of the 8v8 to determine why DPS is higher or lower than usual.

 

I completely disagree. 8s should always be a direct damage increase because you have double the players to cleave on than in 4s. Think about it this way... if one AOE ability does 10k damage to 4 players for a total of 40k damage, the same AOE ability would do 10k damage to 8 players for a total of 80k damage.

 

The only significant difference between regs and arenas is objs. But if everyone is stuck on the first door of voidstar, like in the OP, objs aren't really a factor.

[TrixxieTriss]

I completely disagree. 8s should always be a direct damage increase because you have double the players to cleave on than in 4s. Think about it this way... if one AOE ability does 10k damage to 4 players for a total of 40k damage, the same AOE ability would do 10k damage to 8 players for a total of 80k damage.

 

The only significant difference between regs and arenas is objs. But if everyone is stuck on the first door of voidstar, like in the OP, objs aren't really a factor.

 

Yeah, but you also have down time if you are dead or the enemy is dead. At least in 4s it’s literally Damage per sec.... where are 8s it’s damage and then wait per second

Edited June 10, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[AndriusAjax]

...and having double the body count to cleave (DPS increase). So the potential for DPS is theoretically higher in 8s

 

Think about it this way... if one AOE ability does 10k damage to 4 players for a total of 40k damage, the same AOE ability would do 10k damage to 8 players for a total of 80k damage.

I did.

 

In matches where you're playing with a premade, and you're willingly choosing to cleave stacked people instead of helping defend, running the ball, etc... 100%. You should do more dps in 8v8s.

 

But in a lot of 8v8s, people play to win - so in aggregate, I'd reckon that the average DPS is probably slightly lower in 8s. It's a pretty trivial debate either way. I said above, theoretically, 8s yields the highest potential DPS. That's what you're saying, and I get that. But in reality, I'm not sure it plays out that way.

 

 

Either way, wrapping this into Trix's inquiry, if you see some ridiculous number like 19K DPS - yes, it's probably an ideal-setting 8v8. ...then again, it could be a short 4v4 where a PT unloaded DPS, killed 2 people, and then the other 2 ragequit; aka small sample size. It's all about context.

Edited June 9, 2020 by AndriusAjax

[Xertasian]

check out this scenario..to truly consider a class OP..let's say i did 5 million on a toon my dps was 4k for example on a sin..say my kill count was 20 in a 8 vs 8 warzone..now they had a mara with 10 million and his dps was 8k..his kill count was 20 same as my sin..

 

reading this you will think the mara is hitting harder than my sin and is a better player..in fact i'm stronger than his mara..when you look at the kill count we have the same number..assuming we had the same amount of uptime..i was killing faster than his mara..

 

meaning it took me 350k damage to kill a toon..but the mara had to dish out 500k damage to kill a toon..as you see by the numbers he is better..but overall his toon is weak..cause i killed the same amount of people with lesser damage..

 

Trixxie to answer your question..you can't go by damage per second..go by what class kills in the shortest amount of time a target..then you can figure out what class is OP..cause damage per second will always be a numbers game...

Edited June 9, 2020 by Xertasian

[septru]

snip

 

uh no. by that logic my healer with 50 kills and 0 dps is the most op because he does the most kills with with the least damage.

Edited June 10, 2020 by septru

[Opiklo]

uh no. by that logic my healer with 50 killing blows and 0 dps is the most op because he does the most kills with with the least damage.

 

if you have 50 KILLING BLOWS with 0 dmg... then you are cheating xD and somehow rigged the scoreboard

[cflems]

It’s been about 6 weeks since I had and proper 8v8 maps at lvl 75 until yesterday when I got a void star.

 

There was a Sorc on the other team who did exceptional damage while they were heavily focused and it doesn’t seem real

 

At the end the scoreboard said they’d done 8,604,835 or 11771 DPS.

 

It wasn’t a long match either. I just don’t see how that amount of sustained damage is possible unless you are free casting on all 8 players clustered together, which we weren’t.

 

I remember dueling the Sorc at one point on my sniper and he wasn’t hitting that hard and I killed him twice (I didn’t die all match)

 

What am I missing here?

 

I mean if you dueled him on sniper and killed him fairly easily then doesn't seem that OP does it? You also confirmed he was running convection so the damage is mostly cleave/aoe fluff. You seem to be playing into this circulating myth about sorcs that as soon as one person hits them with basic attack their damage should drop to zero and this just isn't the case nor should it be, or sorcs would be worthless. On sorc you can los a decent amount before you lose any of your dps (just be behind the pole during the gcd), and run a decent amount only losing out on crushing darkness, which is not a terrible loss if you're running convection. I highly doubt you and this jugg were coordinating stuns and damage debuffs into this guy, and knowing regs players probably not doing an oppressive amount of damage to him either. Sounds like chain lightning -> los -> chain lightning -> los -> get worn down and die -> respawn -> repeat. His damage would only be tanking if he was trying super hard not to die, which it doesn't sound like he was, so basically freecasting (bar 8 of every 60 seconds when you two stunned him) on a voidstar with convection = almost 12k. Sounds about right, maybe he's just decent at dps farming.

[Nickodemous]

Either you are good, or you are not....do we really need to debate this?

[TrixxieTriss]

I mean if you dueled him on sniper and killed him fairly easily then doesn't seem that OP does it? You also confirmed he was running convection so the damage is mostly cleave/aoe fluff. You seem to be playing into this circulating myth about sorcs that as soon as one person hits them with basic attack their damage should drop to zero and this just isn't the case nor should it be, or sorcs would be worthless. On sorc you can los a decent amount before you lose any of your dps (just be behind the pole during the gcd), and run a decent amount only losing out on crushing darkness, which is not a terrible loss if you're running convection. I highly doubt you and this jugg were coordinating stuns and damage debuffs into this guy, and knowing regs players probably not doing an oppressive amount of damage to him either. Sounds like chain lightning -> los -> chain lightning -> los -> get worn down and die -> respawn -> repeat. His damage would only be tanking if he was trying super hard not to die, which it doesn't sound like he was, so basically freecasting (bar 8 of every 60 seconds when you two stunned him) on a voidstar with convection = almost 12k. Sounds about right, maybe he's just decent at dps farming.

 

It just seemed way too much compared to everyone else and honestly, I’ve never seen that in 8s before

Edited June 10, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[merovejec]

if you have 50 KILLING BLOWS with 0 dmg... then you are cheating xD and somehow rigged the scoreboard

 

Well, we know how this works, but anyway, there are only certain things which can be influenced by cheating. We have things like wallhack and speed hacks, thats more or less it. I cannot imagine any hack which would increase the damage done.

 

Once I experienced one more hack, which was also understandable, it was a hack that when you attacked the hacking player the used abilities would go on a cooldown of 1 minute, so you couldnt use any abilities, but that was quickly fixed.