The complete destruction of the Commando/Mercenary DPS specs.

[SoonerJBD]

So you take an entire statement and discount it on the basis of a single word? From your last 3 posts I'm starting to get a picture of how you "debate," and it all has to do with evading the actual topic of the discussion by attacking the style of the person making the point. Almost like you're scared of actual substantive discourse. If that sounds overly harsh, it's meant to - we're here to discuss the game and air our concerns about it, not pass an exam in debate class where we're graded on prose style more than subject matter.

 

DPS performance is an objective measure and not a matter of opinion, and we already have preliminary parses from the PTS. In that sense, "clearly" is directed at people who've actually bothered to parse or look at the numbers and inform themselves beforehand. The current Merc top parse is 23.8k (Arsenal) and 23.7k (IO). Average parses are 500-1k lower, as top parses are just pure crit luck. The very top parse is just over 24k and the lowest per class are around 23k for reference. That puts them very much in the middle of the pack. Check Parsely for verification. Very good Merc DDs have been parsing on the PTS (I've watched one of them in a parse group who regularly parses for 22.5-23k without crit luck), and average DPS numbers have decreased by 1.5-3k(!), putting both Merc specs at least 1.5k below a pack of specs/classes currently parsing fairly close to one another.

 

So, sorry I offended your sensibilities with a word or by having a different style of argument than you, but this is a near-existential crisis for Merc DDs considering how long it takes between patches. Based on past balance patch frequency, they're unlikely to get any love for 6+ months if this nerf - which isn't even directed at them - goes through. There's a difference between parsing a few percent lower than the rest and being completely unable to pass certain DPS checks, thus unusable in NiM raids, which is what I fear if even their top parse dips below 22k at lv75, leaving actual DPS closer to 21k if not below. I hope the preliminary parses turn out to be mistaken, and perhaps with Apex Predator Arsenal will go back up a bit, but that still leaves IO with no set to turn to.

 

The point of threads like this is to inform them how their Healer nerf has unintended consequences and that they should make changes to correct those before it goes live. This is very non-controversial; you were just trying to discount the OP's (and now my) entire argument based on stylistic differences and it's really beneath you. Or maybe it isn't, what do I know. Anyway, that was far more in-depth than I wanted to go in a discussion the OP already has firmly under control. My original point is, people should answer substantively or not at all; a poster's style is not indicative of the strength or weakness of their argument.

 

My argument is not stylistic, although your style is abhorrent and has now not surprisingly progressed to ad hominem. It is not merely stylistic to point out that you are making assertions of fact without providing evidence proving them. You’ve done that again above. Your assertion is that mercs/commandos are going to parse worse than every other class, which you correctly point out is objective. But you provided no objective evidence in your original comment and now provide anecdotal evidence, expect us to treat it as gospel truth and tacitly insult anyone who is skeptical. That is my criticism of your argument, and it is substantive.

 

I don’t need your permission to answer a post. I was amused by all the phrases which I posted out are stock when anyone is concerned about potential nerfs to a class. Everyone always thinks the sky is falling (an existential crisis? Seriously?), when that is rarely the case. I don’t have an opinion about the specific proposed nerf because I don’t raid with the class. It may be too much. I don’t profess to know. Oppose it if you like. I remain skeptical about prognostications that the class will be unplayable.

Edited May 20, 2020 by SoonerJBD

[Aulus_Claudius]

OK... after reading this … I have just one point to clarify:

*** is this something that HAS ALREADY happened … or has yet to take place. I like the commando just the way it is. If there are problems that affect PvP … then (as someone else has suggested) … fix the other areas. Please stop nerfing everything else.

 

Please: step away from the nerf hammer.

This is what's on the PTS currently. They're nerfing the Concentrated Fire set in an effort to bring the Commando/Merc healer in line with the other two, and in so doing are indirectly nerfing both DD specs, which were middle of the pack at best. The hope is that they see the unintentional effects of their nerf and give DDs something to balance this out.

 

If they have to swing the nerf hammer, they should at least hit the right target and not everything else nearby.

snip

Ad hominem assumes I'm deflecting by focusing on you rather than answering an argument, and that would require you to actually have made a substantive argument. There is nothing to be gained from arguing with someone who's willfully ignorant of what they're doing to the class (or just doesn't care) and insists on dwelling upon style and technicalities as though it were a graded classroom debate, not to mention now resorting to insults. I'm through speaking with you as this is leading nowhere and will only derail the topic further. I only replied to you to begin with because of how disrespectful you were to the OP.

 

If you actually care about seeing the numbers, go to the PTS and parse and you'll see exactly what's happening. If not, don't. I no longer care.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Aulus_Claudius

[Catharde]

Please do not allow the two people slapfighting over semantics derail the point of this thread: please reconsider the changes made to the Concentrated Fire set.

 

I wont pretend to know what you are trying to correct with this change. But as a player of MMOs for over 15 years, I know there are always multiple changes you can make to achieve a goal. Removing the 4 piece set bonus, which is the major reason this set is good, seems to be overkill. Please consider just lowering the crit chance granted by the 4 piece. Or adjust...pretty much anything else. But don't just remove the set bonus that was the reason most of us put the time in to get this set.

 

The set bonuses on the PTR are now extremely lackluster for both dps and healing. I highly doubt this was your goal. Players who spent time and resources to get this set will probably need to completely regear their commandos. Many may just move on to a different class. Or a different game.

 

As a returning player that is REALLY enjoying my commando right now, please reconsider these changes.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Catharde

[SoonerJBD]

This is what's on the PTS currently. They're nerfing the Concentrated Fire set in an effort to bring the Commando/Merc healer in line with the other two, and in so doing are indirectly nerfing both DD specs, which were middle of the pack at best. The hope is that they see the unintentional effects of their nerf and give DDs something to balance this out.

 

If they have to swing the nerf hammer, they should at least hit the right target and not everything else nearby.

 

Ad hominem assumes I'm deflecting by focusing on you rather than answering an argument, and that would require you to actually have made a substantive argument. There is nothing to be gained from arguing with someone who's willfully ignorant of what they're doing to the class (or just doesn't care) and insists on dwelling upon style and technicalities as though it were a graded classroom debate, not to mention now resorting to insults. I'm through speaking with you as this is leading nowhere and will only derail the topic further. I only replied to you to begin with because of how disrespectful you were to the OP.

 

If you actually care about seeing the numbers, go to the PTS and parse and you'll see exactly what's happening. If not, don't. I no longer care.

 

Translation: You have no evidence to support your assertions of fact and think stating them strongly substitutes for proving what you say. Because you can’t support your statements, you are going to take your ball and go home because you can’t bear to admit you might be wrong. But you also can’t admit that, so you’ll throw out another ad hom attack for good measure. Glad we cleared that up.

Edited May 20, 2020 by SoonerJBD

[theJudeAbides]

I'm sorry if my use of the word "clearly" has upset your delicate sensitivities so, but I, like most commandos/mercs right now am mad. Mad as hell.

 

As Aulus has said, if you look at where the parses are at right now (go look at Parsely, don't take my word for it), Commando/Merc DPS are very average. Honestly, if they were going to stay the same, I wouldn't be here "whining." There are classes that parse higher than me: I don't care. There are classes that parse lower than me: Maybe give them a buff? I'm not gonna start a thread about it, though. And if this was a relatively small/minor nerf, I wouldn't be here either. As long as I'm able to meet DPS checks in HM/NIM content, I'm fine.

 

What bothers me is that if this nerf goes through unchanged, my class will no longer be viable in that content. I will likely have to switch to another class (or maybe just rage quit). This is not something I want to do. Bioware claims we can "play our way." My way is to play Commando, but they're making it unplayable.

 

The reason I'm demanding a response from the devs (and believe me, I know how cliche that is on these forums, and that honestly, it probably won't even happen, but maybe I can stir up enough of a fuss for them to quietly take notice and do something about it) is because the devs in this game have a LONG history of making changes with unintended consequences and then taking months, if not years, to undo them. I'm worried that they're so laser-focused on nerfing the Heal spec that they don't even realize what they're doing to the DPS.

 

So go ahead, call me the poster-child for forum fanboy whining. But if you actually stop and look at this situation, do some research, you'll see that this nerf is going to destroy Commando DPS. Hyperbole? Maybe, but perhaps not as much as you think.

Edited May 20, 2020 by theJudeAbides

[AwesomeTacoCat]

First off, it’s objective fact that nerfing the CF set will destroy merc dps such that both specs are well below every other dps class. Moreoever, they will be sufficiently lower than other classes such that they will become essentially unviable in NiM content when every other class is currently viable. That’s not reasonable.

 

There are many ways to nerf merc healers without nerfing CF. Just nerf merc abilities. Or RFV. Or only allow dps abilities to trigger CF bonuses. Or some combination of these.

Edited May 22, 2020 by AwesomeTacoCat

[Aulus_Claudius]

Please do not allow the two people slapfighting over semantics derail the point of this thread: please reconsider the changes made to the Concentrated Fire set.

Yes, I've let this thread get far too derailed and finally had to block that guy. Sorry about that, won't happen anymore.

 

What's important is that they absolutely need to reconsider what these changes, ultimately directed at healers, are doing to a very average-parsing DPS class. I'm not opposed to them nerfing the set and by default making Apex Predator viable for Arsenal, but then the DPS specs need compensatory buffs to keep them from being the lowest-parsing DDs by a solid margin. The healer tactical nerf is pretty strong (and necessary) already even without touching the set, so hopefully they can find one way or another to make sure this nerf only hits the one spec it needs to.

[ElZaguero]

Your assertion is that mercs/commandos are going to parse worse than every other class, which you correctly point out is objective. But you provided no objective evidence

 

Do you not understand that Parsley has a meaning other than a green leafy herb? He clearly said that the evidence is available on Parsley. This is providing objective evidence.

[SoonerJBD]

First off, it’s objective fact that beefing the CF set will destroy merc dps such that both specs are well below every other dps class. Moreoever, they will be sufficiently lower than other classes such that they will become essentially unviable in NiM content when every other class is currently viable. That’s not reasonable.

 

There are many ways to nerf merc healers without nerfing CF. Just nerf merc abilities. Or RFV. Or only allow dps abilities to trigger CF bonuses. Or some combination of these.

 

It’s not objective fact merely because you assert it to be. That’s the point. Objective facts are provable. Unless you provide the evidence showing it will unquestionably perform worse than every other spec and will not be viable in Nightmare content, your claim of objective fact is just bluster. Everyone makes these claims when their preferred class is about to get nerfed. As such, I’m understandably skeptical unless someone can show me the parse data to prove it.

[OlBuzzard]

This is what's on the PTS currently. They're nerfing the Concentrated Fire set in an effort to bring the Commando/Merc healer in line with the other two, and in so doing are indirectly nerfing both DD specs, which were middle of the pack at best. The hope is that they see the unintentional effects of their nerf and give DDs something to balance this out.

 

If they have to swing the nerf hammer, they should at least hit the right target and not everything else nearby.

 

 

 

[/snip - snip]

 

OK … that's what I thought !!

 

UGH !!

 

The one single bone I have to pick with the team is that with all of the testing (on PTS) they rarely (if ever) listen to ANY feed back. That's why I've about thrown in the towel for that aspect of the game.

 

Kind of sad really. They are doing a good job … for the most part (6.1.1 release to prove that).

 

I couldn't begin to quote numbers (as you would see on a spread sheet). Although before the crafting fiasco some did. Guess what happened …. NADA ! And … yip as predicted by MANY players … down the proverbial toilet went crafting !!!

 

Let me just sum it all up for the commando like this:

IMO: THE COMMANDO IS JUST FINE …. just like it is !!

[SoonerJBD]

Do you not understand that Parsley has a meaning other than a green leafy herb? He clearly said that the evidence is available on Parsley. This is providing objective evidence.

 

Yeah, that isn’t true. The data show mercs currently in the average range. That is what Parsley shows. He said he “saw a guy” who usually parses well doing way less. That’s anecdote. It’s not good evidence, particularly when actual objective evidence can be produced easily if it exists via parse data. Good evidence would be linking to the actual parses proving your point.

[Lhancelot]

[/snip - snip]

 

OK … that's what I thought !!

 

UGH !!

 

The one single bone I have to pick with the team is that with all of the testing (on PTS) they rarely (if ever) listen to ANY feed back. That's why I've about thrown in the towel for that aspect of the game.

 

Kind of sad really. They are doing a good job … for the most part (6.1.1 release to prove that).

 

I agree with this sentiment. Obviously a lot of people are pointing out how these changes are bad changes. Yet, not one acknowledgement from BW management, nope, not one. No yellow text to at least let people know their concerns are noticed.

 

That's my biggest bone to pick. Yeah yeah, virus and stuffs, there's no excuse to not respond to threads like this when a big change to a class is being added to the game, changes that could possibly be extremely bad for the game. If they can bother adding threads/posts to inform us they are nerfing classes then they ought to consider responding back to the players when the players have legitimate concerns about said nerf/changes.

 

 

What's even more annoying about it all is that's the only decent gear set for both Arsenal and Bodyguard specs... If anything, this issue ought to shine light on the fact the DPS gear set is best for the heal spec. Fix that! Seriously! The heal spec gear set for Mercs isn't even worthy of the title "afterthought." It's utter garbage in a dumpster fire, that's how bad the Merc heal gear set is no one uses that POS gear set!

Edited May 21, 2020 by Lhancelot

[OlBuzzard]

I agree with this sentiment. Obviously a lot of people are pointing out how these changes are bad changes. Yet, not one acknowledgement from BW management, nope, not one. No yellow text to at least let people know their concerns are noticed.

 

That's my biggest bone to pick. Yeah yeah, virus and stuffs, there's no excuse to not respond to threads like this when a big change to a class is being added to the game, changes that could possibly be extremely bad for the game. If they can bother adding threads/posts to inform us they are nerfing classes then they ought to consider responding back to the players when the players have legitimate concerns about said nerf/changes.

 

 

What's even more annoying about it all is that's the only decent gear set for both Arsenal and Bodyguard specs... If anything, this issue ought to shine light on the fact the DPS gear set is best for the heal spec. Fix that! Seriously! The heal spec gear set for Mercs isn't even worthy of the title "afterthought." It's utter garbage in a dumpster fire, that's how bad the Merc heal gear set is no one uses that POS gear set!

 

Agreed...

 

Please note one clarification to this. IF there is some sort of "rework" in progress that still makes changes (though not as extreme) … that "MIGHT" work. It's not my game. I'm not on the team. That said if there are major changes in something and the team is asking for genuine feed back … then (IMO) … that feed back should be reviewed with a degree of genuineness … not just to see if the game is going to crash or not.

 

While it may be needed to make some adjustments in the balance of things (particularly in PvP ) then do so... BUT not at the usual expense of swinging the HEAVY nerf bat (again) !

 

Fix the other issues that need attention to achieve balance !

 

IMO... the team has demonstrated repeatedly that if they put their mind to it … a LOT of good stuff can be accomplished!

[AllisonLightning]

They nerfed operative healers via set bonus because of one of the DPS branch- they are even going to give merc healers major compensation for their hurt so it might turn out they are still overtuned on final build. You'll be a lot happier, OP if you just realize they will continue to hurt the wrong spec in order to class balance which they struggle with.

It took them years to balance sorc healers who feel weak because mercs are busted broken- none of us were meant to outheal mechanics or create cockroach PvP. We can do incredible things with skill that break what our classes should be capable of at the high end- I know madness sorc mains who were in a lot more pain for longer who could pull numbers.

 

I mean my sub drops in a few days but it's because I need a break from the game because I've gotten a bit over it. Class balance has never been my priority when it comes to why I stay subbed because they will never get it right and it makes you a better player to just ignore them. Yes, they put an overemphasis on PvP- they can and will hurt the wrong branches of a spec in their poor class balancing but it's a common issue with MMOs and you're better off adjusting. You'll be surprised how good you get when you have to push more.

[ElZaguero]

T none of us were meant to outheal mechanics or create cockroach PvP.

 

What on earth is cockroach PVP?

[Lhancelot]

What on earth is cockroach PVP?

 

It's when no matter what you throw at the merc healer they just. Won't. Die.

 

Like a cockroach.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Lhancelot

[OlBuzzard]

What on earth is cockroach PVP?

 

 

It's when no matter what you throw at the merc healer they just. Won't. Die.

 

Like a cockroach.

 

LOL !! One of those things where I suspected that was what was the case but not sure.

 

Oh my .. can help but to laugh at this one!

 

I openly admit that PvP needs a lot of TLC … but simply don't throw the baby out with the wash !! Good grief !!

 

To the team: PLEASE …. use your noggin ! There is no question you know how to do this right !!

 

Now then … it's your call !!

[DawnAskham]

If there is an issue with healers being too powerful when using the Concentrated Fire (dps) set, then just add a discipline qualification to the set that does not include the healing specs.

 

How freaking hard is that?

 

After you do that, you can get to work fixing the Tech Medic set such that healers want to use it.

 

But since my dps merc / commandos get nothing but Tech Medic or the stealth scan set from rewards, and had to spend credits buying the Concentrated Fire set, I'd appreciate you not screwing them over by reducing dps effectiveness all because not even healers want the healing set.

[RikuvonDrake]

If there is an issue with healers being too powerful when using the Concentrated Fire (dps) set, then just add a discipline qualification to the set that does not include the healing specs.

 

How freaking hard is that?

 

After you do that, you can get to work fixing the Tech Medic set such that healers want to use it.

 

But since my dps merc / commandos get nothing but Tech Medic or the stealth scan set from rewards, and had to spend credits buying the Concentrated Fire set, I'd appreciate you not screwing them over by reducing dps effectiveness all because not even healers want the healing set.

 

crying aside, this is basically whats happening, the best features of the setbonus is being removed from the set and being added as a passive to the dps specs, it seems a lot of you guys are forum warriors but i feel like i should recommend that you guys actually use the pts and use that to post feedback. if you are a person who easily falls for fake news etc, try to learn to verify the information

Edited May 23, 2020 by RikuvonDrake

[OlBuzzard]

crying aside, this is basically whats happening, the best features of the setbonus is being removed from the set and being added as a passive to the dps specs, it seems a lot of you guys are forum warriors but i feel like i should recommend that you guys actually use the pts and use that to post feedback. if you are a person who easily falls for fake news etc, try to learn to verify the information

 

Just for the record:

*** some of us remember the following and are now a little skeptical of the PTS:

1. EXCESSIVERNG (there will always be RNG in the game... just not at vendors)

2. Crafting (post 6.0)

3. Issues with Alderaan SH

 

*** several points were made … and solid suggestions. Often times pleading for a degree of restraint and consideration for a different approach to certain issues.

 

*** To avoid derailing this thread .. please note: I just wanted to clarify why I personally got involved in the thread at all. I usually just take a wait and see position.

 

AS FOR YOUR POINT:

 

VERY interesting. The set bonus in general has been one of debate since the beginning of 6.0 In PvP set bonus is a lot more sensitive. Believe me I get that !!

 

You point is something that has not be made clear (that much at least) until now. IF YOU are correct … and that is how this is released … your conclusion is also correct.

 

If that makes me wrong … then I'm wrong ! It's just that simple.

 

AND (for whatever it's worth) I for one appreciate someone actually bringing the rest of the actual FACTS out in the open for us to see.

 

Thank You !

[theJudeAbides]

crying aside, this is basically whats happening, the best features of the setbonus is being removed from the set and being added as a passive to the dps specs, it seems a lot of you guys are forum warriors but i feel like i should recommend that you guys actually use the pts and use that to post feedback. if you are a person who easily falls for fake news etc, try to learn to verify the information

 

Where have you seen that they're adding a +10% crit to the DPS specs, because I haven't seen this anywhere? Can you please verify this information (e.g. provide proof)? Because if so, I'll shut up right now.

Edited May 24, 2020 by theJudeAbides

[RikuvonDrake]

both of you can simply log in to the pts and verify for yourself if you don't trust me, if you rather just complain that is, of course, an option available to you as well

[ElZaguero]

both of you can simply log in to the pts and verify for yourself if you don't trust me, if you rather just complain that is, of course, an option available to you as well

 

There is nothing simple about it. Using PTS requires a massive download that can take hours and hours. It's like re-installing the game.

[SlimPikinz]

both of you can simply log in to the pts and verify for yourself if you don't trust me, if you rather just complain that is, of course, an option available to you as well

 

You've been posting this around in other places. Can you provide proof instead of saying "Go check for yourself"?

 

Otherwise, you are full of it.

[Letsjet]

To me, it looks like nothing bad happened today with the 6.1.1b patch...