@LFG tool haterz

[acheros]

All the rude people on the internet playing MMO's only played wow?

 

when did i ever even imply that? I said the community is bad, nothing more. If you're going to try to counter an argument, actually use logic next time, pal.

[JimG]

Keep in mind, the people against the LFG tool are actually broken into two different camps. You have some people who are against the LFG tool because they think it will hurt the game. Then you have other people, like me, who are against adding a LFG tool because they don't think it's necessary and would rather see BW focus on fixing bugs, adding new content and making other needed improvements.

 

I haven't found it hard at all to find groups but also I think the players who are bad players, selfish in terms of loot (needing on stuff they shouldn't be needing on) or just plain rude should have some accountability and suffer the consequences when it comes to grouping instead of being able to just jump in random groups through a LFG tool. Sorry, refuse to call it a dungeon finder as we have no dungeons here. It's time to start shifting the terminology to TOR terminology instead of using all the WoW terminology.

[notamisfit]

I'd say at the least give it some time. There's a whole lot of new stuff out there, and people aren't tired enough of the world yet to say "to hell with it" and chain-grind instances for their XP. I'm a friggin tank and I've run like 2 instances since launch, and that was just because I was getting my *** kicked in my class quest.

[Halacs]

when did i ever even imply that? I said the community is bad, nothing more. If you're going to try to counter an argument, actually use logic next time, pal.

 

No matter how many times i say this, it seems no one understands.

 

correlation does not imply causation.

 

the WoW community was horrible from the start. It only got worse as it got more and more popular.

 

LFD wasn't the cause of the horrible community, it was a symptom, caused by servers being so horrible no one could find groups outside guilds anyway.

 

I think I did champ.

[acheros]

 

I haven't found it hard at all to find groups

 

I'm going to focus solely on this sentence...I realize its a small part of an otherwise well thought out post, but this irritates me.

 

Just because YOU don't have a problem finding groups, you imply that its not a problem. There are entire servers plagued with a lack of healers or tanks. Sure if you're one of those rolls you can probably get a group for anything easy. However, i've literally spent HOURS searching for a tank for ONE, FLASHPOINT, before the group dissolved.

 

Just because YOU don't suffer from the issue doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist.

[acheros]

I think I did champ.

 

No, i'm saying the community was always bad, you're saying everyone who was a horrible person played wow.

[Dabrixmgp]

LFD tools let people get groups who play on low populated servers or maybe random non prime time hours due to work or arent in a large guild or play with RL friends. Why shouldnt they be able to enjoy the game just because they cant play during prime time hours or dont have RL friends that also play?

 

If you dont like a LFD tool then dont use it. No one forces you to use it. I never used the one in Rift and I never used the one in WoW. Just because you are in a large guild on a full server why do you believe you have the right to say people unguilded on low population servers cant group?

 

I have played other games on low population servers and I literally went weeks without a group and that was being online for 5-6 hours a day. What fun is that? At most I would get 2 other people in the group then they drop after 10 mins when we couldnt find a tank or a healer.

[Suzina]

I have formed groups from general chat that dont even speak during the instance. Its not the LFG tool that makes people anti-social, its the players themselves.

 

This silence is far, far preferable to what you find out of a LFG tool. With a LFG tool, they would have spent the whole time questioning your sexual orientation, your intelligence and referred to you as racial slurs.

 

They can get away with it too. With a LFG tool, they'll likely never see you again.

[acheros]

This silence is far, far preferable to what you find out of a LFG tool. With a LFG tool, they would have spent the whole time questioning your sexual orientation, your intelligence and referred to you as racial slurs.

 

They can get away with it too. With a LFG tool, they'll likely never see you again.

 

thats never once happened to anyone and you know it.

 

Dont get me wrong, it happened in WoW. But that was reserved for trade chat, LFD was dead silence most of the time.

Edited December 30, 2011 by acheros

[Baresark]

I'm in the Pro-LFG camp, and the thing is this... Sometimes, I just want to sign on and play my game. I don't want to have to wait around for a healer.

 

And, if you don't like the tool, then you simply don't use the tool. The community in general is very terse and negative towards one another, and I don't blame people for wanting to play the game they purchased with minimum strain. And, I have been playing games for a really long time. And it's still loads more fun to go to a friends house and play.

 

People shouldn't confuse what happens in games as actual socializing. It's not. Socializing is so much deeper than people give credence to.

 

Edit: Also, there is still no accountability for bad behavior from other players, with or without said tool. That is a weak argument at best.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Baresark

[iceperson]

Bored at work, been poring over the forums. One point of contention I've run across frequently is the idea of a LFG tool, wether or not it should be implemented. I'm in the pro-LFG tool camp myself, but the argument goes that somehow the tool destroys player community, makes people less social, etc.

 

What?

 

Do you consider it socializing to ask (or spam) people in general chat (or whispers) if they want to run an instance? Is it the time spent before the party is filled out? I'm just looking for a more in-depth explanation of what people mean when they claim dungeon finders ruin a server's sense of community. I've played MMOs with and without LFG tools, and for the life of me, I can't ever recall those without having this vaunted sense of belonging the anti-tool camp purports.

 

you're doing it wrong. If you're not making a note of the good players and bad ones and using your friends list to start groups and spamming chat to fill in the odd hole, then you need to give it a try. While leveling it's not so important, but at 50 it's the only way to do it...

[acheros]

I'm in the Pro-LFG camp, and the thing is this... Sometimes, I just want to sign on and play my game. I don't want to have to wait around for a healer.

 

And, if you don't like the tool, then you simply don't use the tool. The community in general is very terse and negative towards one another, and I don't blame people for wanting to play the game they purchased with minimum strain. And, I have been playing games for a really long time. And it's still loads more fun to go to a friends house and play.

 

People shouldn't confuse what happens in games as actual socializing. It's not. Socializing is so much deeper than people give credence to.

 

heres the ironic thing about socializing. I'm the kind of person who..Not really a shut in..But i don't really -like- going out to clubs or things like that, the only real places i go "out" too are movies and concerts, and there i'm for the show, not to talk to people..Although i do do that before the show starts for concerts.

 

Aaanyway, i'm that kind of person. I don't just sit and talk to people, period, let alone in video games really. However i noticed, in wow, during LFD, i was talking to -more- people then i usually did. Because frankly i got BORED with the silence. So anytime someone would AFK or zone out for whatever reason, i'd start talking to everyone else.

 

Most times it was actually very pleasant, i've had ONE bad experience in LFD and that was a full guild run minus one(me) and i had the distinct impression they treat EVERYONE like crap, from their server or not.

[Asulynn]

I do sure love missing out on a fairly big portion of the game simply because I don't want to sit around and contribute to the "LFG" spam of general. I keep seeing people say to give the current system time and actually try it. I have tried it; in City of Heroes. They have the exact same system, has been around longer than WoW and I can probably count on two hands the number of times I got into a group using it in the span of five years.

 

You don't want cross-server LFD tools, cool, whatever. Longer queues from being server wide only, but its still better than what's in place now. I dare say it would help even more in promoting a community if it were server-side only and gave people a legitimate alternative to spamming general.

[Deavyin]

I

 

Lets face it folks, people lost the desire to socialize because its no longer necessary. In the good old days MMO's came with allot of downtime. Any caster or Camper in Everquest will relay, you spent more time getting to know other players that fighting. Because of the excessive downtime's, you had to. As games decreased overall downtime and sped up game play people have tossed social interaction to wayside. Which to be honest is a shame. The point of playing an MMO is to have access to other players.

 

 

there you go, you said it right there. YES, in the past MMO's had a lot of down time. A LOT of down time. when games had this tremendous amount of downtime (i.e. waiting) there wasn't nearly as many people playing. People who otherwise don't have the time to sit and wait for respawns etc were locked out of playing the game because they couldn't get anything done. That is the crux of this issue. I don't have time to sit and 'socialize' by spamming chat.

 

people need to stop with this "spamming LFG forces you to socialize". That is such utter nonsense. Using general chat for what it was intended to be used for is what causes people to socialize. Join a guild, say hello to the people you randomly group up with (whether via the LFD tool or otherwise). These are ways to socialize and they are already completely functional in the game. A LFD tool has absolutely 0 bearing on this. In fact, It's often difficult to have a conversation in general chat when it's being flooded with LFG messages. It needs to stop because it does not belong there.

 

The video game should not force us to socialize via such rudimentary means. In fact, it shouldn't force us to socialize at all if we don't want to. The game already gives us incentives to socialize and that's great. That's about as far as the game should go.

 

to the people who say "i haven't had trouble finding a group blah blah blah"...good for you..honestly GOOD FOR YOU. I don't care...just because you haven't had trouble finding a group doesn't mean that we also haven't. If we are sitting here saying we can't find a group or it's taking too long then it's the truth because we aren't liars. If there was no issue finding a group in a decent amount of time so we can get **** done and get back to our personal lives then we wouldn't be sitting here complaining about the exclusion of a decent LFD tool.

 

not a single one of the arguments against a LFD tool is informed at all. All I have seen is "implementing a LFD ruins communities...everything was utopian until that blasted LFD ruined it"....bull****...rotten people ruin communities. I also see "you don't socialize as much with a LFD tool". ABSOLUTE BULL**** there are so many ways to socialize in this game. The LFD tool has no bearing on socialization. It is simply a tool to ease in the formation of groups. Once you are in the group you can still talk to the people. 99 percent of the time, using the archaic LFG spam method, you aren't having a conversation any deeper than "LFG DPS PST"....it's the simple and honest truth. It's the truth because every single person on this forum has experienced it. If you chat away with random strangers while looking for a group then good for you...you deserve a medal. Having or not having a LFD tool isn't going to make us anymore like you.

[Caelrie]

Might want to read what he said again. He didn't say what you just said he did....

 

It's not my fault you don't want to see it.

[JimG]

I'm going to focus solely on this sentence...I realize its a small part of an otherwise well thought out post, but this irritates me.

 

Just because YOU don't have a problem finding groups, you imply that its not a problem. There are entire servers plagued with a lack of healers or tanks. Sure if you're one of those rolls you can probably get a group for anything easy. However, i've literally spent HOURS searching for a tank for ONE, FLASHPOINT, before the group dissolved.

 

Just because YOU don't suffer from the issue doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist.

 

You're missing the point though. There is no inherent problem with finding groups if it's not difficult on many of the servers. The problem therefore is not a lack of LFG tool but the balance of servers and the use of sharding (namely not merging shards when the population starts to lower). I'd rather seem them make adjustments to population caps on servers, forcing newer players to roll on less populated servers and put some sort of merging for lower pop shards in place than simply put a bandaid over the problem with a LFG tool.

 

Also, I didn't get into all this in my post but I think the whole "can't find a healer" argument doesn't fly. For example, when I first rolled my Smuggler and got to the Fleet, someone was broadcasting in general for a healer. They had 3 players and wouldn't add me and refused to start without a healer. So myself and 3 Sentinels who had also started looking all teamed up. By the time we all got to the starting point, this other guy was still broadcasting for a healer and who knows how long he had been doing that before I got there and how long it took him to find a healer. We absolutely steam-rolled through Esseles...no healer necessary. Leaving aside the fact that the heals are very weak at that level so the term "healer" is probably an overstatement anyway, there was absolutely no need for a healer to run that but these 3 people were going to sit around for 20+ minutes because they refused to run it without a healer. There is a big difference between not being able to find other players and not being able to find healers. I don't think there is a shortage of healers anywhere because I don't think they are necessary to most of the game (end-game operations and things like that are probably exceptions). If people are going to sit around waiting for a group of 1 tank, 2 DPS and 1 healer, then that's just not a game flaw and obviously a LFG tool does nothing to help this. What happens when you get put in without a healer in your group? You're all going to quit the group and keep going back into the LFG que until you finally get a group with a healer? So sorry, not buying the we don't have enough healers without a LFG tool. They are either out there or they aren't....a LFG tool won't add more healing characters.

 

Now this doesn't mean I don't believe that they need to make some changes to help on the lower population servers, as I mentioned above....it just means I don't believe a LFG is the solution.

Edited December 30, 2011 by JimG

[Nitewolfe]

Bored at work, been poring over the forums. One point of contention I've run across frequently is the idea of a LFG tool, wether or not it should be implemented. I'm in the pro-LFG tool camp myself, but the argument goes that somehow the tool destroys player community, makes people less social, etc.

 

What?

 

Do you consider it socializing to ask (or spam) people in general chat (or whispers) if they want to run an instance? Is it the time spent before the party is filled out? I'm just looking for a more in-depth explanation of what people mean when they claim dungeon finders ruin a server's sense of community. I've played MMOs with and without LFG tools, and for the life of me, I can't ever recall those without having this vaunted sense of belonging the anti-tool camp purports.

 

I am in the pro lfg tool camp!

[Nevur]

Thanks for the thoughtful answers, those who gave them.

 

Sounds like cross-server matching is the biggest demon for the anti-LFD tool people. I understand the notion of accountability in the context of this discussion, but my experience with cross-server LFD in other games is hardly the apocalyptic landscape of ninjas, racists, 1337kidz, and so on, as some people have described.

 

I just wonder that some players place more importance avoiding crappy people than playing a fun game with a few strangers.

[Jimmc]

Bioware said no. Besides you don't need a lfd tool stop being anti social and socialize.

 

By the way...what makes you think bioware even has the technology to have people interact with eachother cross servers? Nothing in this game is cross server which leads me to believe it was not coded into the game.

[OBLCDiomedes]

I fall into the Anti-Tool category myself. While I have praised the feature in past MMO's, I strongly disagree with the notion that the absence will break this game. I could comment on each individual argument as a reason the LFD would be a good thing, let me cover the basics.

 

1. We need the LFG due to time constraints when playing. First if your time is limited during a session group based content may be best avoided. Best case and you can rush through it. Worse case you have to leave mid quest, flashpoint, or operation. Either way due to the limited time frame you will spend less time socializing overall. Essentially this means you are missing the best aspect of grouping which is the socialization. An LFD tool encourages this behavior as it makes it acceptable to disappear mid content with the justification that the group can always re-que and find someone else.

 

2. We need the LFG because its hard to find a group. Its funny but I don't buy it. I imagine some people have difficulty finding groups, but personally I haven't had any trouble. Of course I try to avoid spamming the generic LFG in general. As a person who likes to start groups, I generally avoid comments like this as well. Taking the time to say Healer, looking for group versus Healz LFG goes a long way.

 

Lets face it folks, people lost the desire to socialize because its no longer necessary. In the good old days MMO's came with allot of downtime. Any caster or Camper in Everquest will relay, you spent more time getting to know other players that fighting. Because of the excessive downtime's, you had to. As games decreased overall downtime and sped up game play people have tossed social interaction to wayside. Which to be honest is a shame. The point of playing an MMO is to have access to other players.

 

But to be honest I will concede to those requesting the LFG on two conditions. First any tool implemented should be server based. Cross Server grouping for Flash Points an Operations leads to bad things. Second players using the tool should not gain social points. I think Social Level should be awarded to players making the effort to locate groups. Because the LFG is a Pandora's box, once implemented makes it harder to find open groups. To encourage open socialization, Social points should be reserved for those who make the extra effort.

 

With those two concessions, I would support a LFG system.

 

Signed.

[Meduka_Meguca]

Problem:

 

Players unable to find groups reliably

 

Working:

 

Set time period range from 1min to 120min.

 

Probability of finding group using \who = x (where x < 1)

Probability of finding group using \guild = y (where y < 1)

Probability of finding group using \1 LFG for Flashpoint/Ops/etc = z (where z < 1)

Probability of finding group using cross realm LFG = 1 (100% chance)

 

Cross Realm LFG > \who, \guild and \1 spam

 

Soultion:

 

Implement LFG to solve problem of people not being able to find groups reliably

[acheros]

You're missing the point though. There is no inherent problem with finding groups if it's not difficult on many of the servers.

 

 

How do either of us know about other servers other then our own? On my server, healers are missing the most, followed by tanks.

 

The problem therefore is not a lack of LFG tool but the balance of servers and the use of sharding (namely not merging shards when the population starts to lower).

Here you demonstrate not even a basic knowledge of how sharding works. IT DOESN'T EFFECT FINDING GROUPS AT ALL! because general chat can be see on EVERY SHARD if you're on the same planet. That means -everyone- on the fleet can see what everyone -else- on the fleet sees, regardless of shard.

 

How do i know this? Because there are times i've joined a group, and had to switch shards, there are times i've invite people, and they had to switch shards.

 

 

I'd rather seem them make adjustments to population caps on servers, forcing newer players to roll on less populated servers and put some sort of merging for lower pop shards in place than simply put a bandaid over the problem with a LFG tool.

 

Personal experience, my server is heavy/full, still has a lack of healers/tanks, sorry. also even if you force everyone to one server, while the ODDS that more healers/tanks will come, its no guarantee.

[Jimmc]

Problem:

 

Players unable to find groups reliably

 

Working:

 

Set time period range from 1min to 120min.

 

Probability of finding group using \who = x (where x < 1)

Probability of finding group using \guild = y (where y < 1)

Probability of finding group using \1 LFG for Flashpoint/Ops/etc = z (where z < 1)

Probability of finding group using cross realm LFG = 1 (100% chance)

 

Cross Realm LFG > \who, \guild and \1 spam

 

Soultion:

 

Implement LFG to solve problem of people not being able to find groups reliably

 

annnnnnnd the whole game turns into a lobby, no more community and then you lose 2 million subs like wow.

[acheros]

annnnnnnd the whole game turns into a lobby, no more community and then you lose 2 million subs like wow.

 

LFG in its current incarnation is already a lobby.

 

that lobby is called the fleet.

 

WoW lost subs because its 7 years old, people got tired of it. But also the quality of content of ANY product slowly goes down.

[JimG]

In fact, It's often difficult to have a conversation in general chat when it's being flooded with LFG messages. It needs to stop because it does not belong there.

 

If there was no issue finding a group in a decent amount of time so we can get **** done and get back to our personal lives then we wouldn't be sitting here complaining about the exclusion of a decent LFD tool.

 

The LFD tool has no bearing on socialization. It is simply a tool to ease in the formation of groups.

 

Sorry, you're posting contradictory statements here. You claim you have a lot of trouble finding groups and experience long wait times to find groups and can't effectively find groups without a LFG tool, but you say you can't have a conversation in general chat because it's being FLOODED with LFG messages. Now wait a sec, which one is it? You've got so many people flooding general chat with LFG messages that you can't hold a conversation in general chat but you can't find any groups? Come on. I totally understand people wanting a LFG tool because it makes things more convenient but when you say things like this then it becomes obvious a LFG tool is not a necessity.

 

Also, a LFG tool isn't going to increase or decrease the number of people on a server that are looking for a group. If people can't find groups because server populations are low, then that's a problem that needs other solutions. What a LFG tool does is absolve players of any need to form a group. So instead of getting 10 people posting LFG and no one willing to actually form the group, these players get randomly thrown into groups. We've all seen people moan in general chat in games about how someone needs to form a group but they refuse to be the one to do it.

 

If they ultimately put in a LFG tool, I'm not going to moan about it. I probably won't use it and, if I do and I get thrown in with someone who is only my do-not-group-with list from previous experience, then I'll just back out of the group before we start. But I'd rather see them put other things higher up on the priority list and find other solutions to low populations servers if that's the main concern driving the request for a LFG tool.