Dps are not tanks. It's time to nerf guard

[omaan]

After you buffed advanced prototype powertech dps all i see is pts,sins,juggernauts are guarding each other while their healers easily offheal them... they don't time even if my team makes great swaps on them because 50% guard on each other makes it easier for a healer to heal them all up. All they need to do is drop guard when they are focused and start guarding if they are not focused. This is ridiculous, i wondered why i don't see tanks anymore in pvp anymore and now i see why - dps can do their role easily. Why dps sorcs, operatives and mercs can heal only 1/5 of what a heal spec can do whilst dps classes with guard can guard on all 50% same as tanks??Thats literally not fair and causes big imbalance. Heal games are decided by fact if your team has two guarding dps or no. IF no - lose.

 

Guard from dps must be like 15% only and have some kind of cd to prevent it from being spammed

Edited February 13, 2020 by omaan

[Yojadi]

On the contrary, pvp isn't the main focus of this game. I'm tired of kids coming on here who are bad at pvp and crying that things need to be nerfed. LET ME GUESS, you play a Sniper? or a Gunslinger? Usually those 2 types of players in tears demanding nerfs. Instead of demanding nerfs, why don't you just evolve and get better at pvp?

 

PVP is a small percentage of players who actually care about it, SMALL, so small. 90% of people who do PVP are just doing it for their Daily/weekly, Conquest goals, or boredom for 10min. No one cares.

 

On the OTHER HAND, these classes with Guard come in very handy in the PVE world in situations where no tank ques up for a FP and they're able to guard eachother to tank so the group can have a smooth run. Or even help inside a operation.

 

So no....things don't need to be nerfed cause you're bad at pvp. They just don't.

[Nemmar]

On the contrary, pvp isn't the main focus of this game. I'm tired of kids coming on here who are bad at pvp and crying that things need to be nerfed. LET ME GUESS, you play a Sniper? or a Gunslinger? Usually those 2 types of players in tears demanding nerfs. Instead of demanding nerfs, why don't you just evolve and get better at pvp?

 

PVP is a small percentage of players who actually care about it, SMALL, so small. 90% of people who do PVP are just doing it for their Daily/weekly, Conquest goals, or boredom for 10min. No one cares.

 

On the OTHER HAND, these classes with Guard come in very handy in the PVE world in situations where no tank ques up for a FP and they're able to guard eachother to tank so the group can have a smooth run. Or even help inside a operation.

 

So no....things don't need to be nerfed cause you're bad at pvp. They just don't.

 

This is some vitriol.

 

How about it's disabled in PvP? Not that i care mind you. Though your argument about PvE is ridicuous and it's a chore to sort out all the guards going out. Honestly, it's not something the game really needs or is vital in any way (maybe in nightmare mode? But that can be solved with tuning).

I don't think it's as strong as people say though. It's a 5% damage reduction. People don't understand but the extra 25% damage that gets prevented is redirectioned to the guard user. So, it didn't go away. Healing is not exactly OP atm, so as long as you keep on the healer, he won't be able to keep everyone else up. You will kill them both in time.

Guard is only strong with tanks, imo.

 

I actually, agree that it's pretty useless and could be something for tanks. DPS don't really need it.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Nemmar

[robertthebard]

So let me see if I'm understanding the general complaint:

 

Players are using class skills to win at PvP, and it's not fair.

 

That's the gist I'm getting from this. One day, some developer, somewhere is going to invent the perfect PvP game, where players go in, and lose all their gear, all their weapons, and are bolstered to the same stats, so that they just have to stand there and punch each other for an entire match... It's the only way someone won't find something OP, and I'm betting that even that won't work...

[Przemo_No]

After you buffed advanced prototype powertech dps all i see is pts,sins,juggernauts are guarding each other while their healers easily offheal them... they don't time even if my team makes great swaps on them because 50% guard on each other makes it easier for a healer to heal them all up. All they need to do is drop guard when they are focused and start guarding if they are not focused. This is ridiculous, i wondered why i don't see tanks anymore in pvp anymore and now i see why - dps can do their role easily. Why dps sorcs, operatives and mercs can heal only 1/5 of what a heal spec can do whilst dps classes with guard can guard on all 50% same as tanks??Thats literally not fair and causes big imbalance. Heal games are decided by fact if your team has two guarding dps or no. IF no - lose.

 

Guard from dps must be like 15% only and have some kind of cd to prevent it from being spammed

I just say "LOL".

Who cares, if you cannot win? Just grt over the hat, PVP is not everything in this game. And yes, I played it a lot, but at certain point one cannot live ve by that only. This game has gone so many changes inthose 7 years, that you should just play Al ng and wait for new expansion with new FOTM...

[KendraP]

As a tank main, I'm honestly fine if they take dps guard away, whatever.

 

That said, dps specs do not have the survivability of tank specs. As someone who does it, offguarding as say vigi is much riskier than guarding as a tank.

 

And now, that said, if losing guard meant my dps guardian could get some form of antifocus tool instead of something that attracts attention, I'd take the trade.

 

PPS: the real thing dps can do equally to tanks, with absolutely zero repercussions to themselves, is taunt. Guard has a repercussion: the 50% extra damage isn't lost: it goes to the person guarding. What's the downside to a dps taunting on CD?

[DanteYoda]

I'll only add one thing please stop nerfing stuff for PvP while destroying the PvE in the process, vastly more customers pve.. Its not hyperbole, its fact.

 

Every time the devs ruin pve a little more customers get tired and leave.

[sharkfishman]

As a tank main, I'm honestly fine if they take dps guard away, whatever.

 

That said, dps specs do not have the survivability of tank specs. As someone who does it, offguarding as say vigi is much riskier than guarding as a tank.

 

And now, that said, if losing guard meant my dps guardian could get some form of antifocus tool instead of something that attracts attention, I'd take the trade.

 

PPS: the real thing dps can do equally to tanks, with absolutely zero repercussions to themselves, is taunt. Guard has a repercussion: the 50% extra damage isn't lost: it goes to the person guarding. What's the downside to a dps taunting on CD?

 

You're right, but guard does have a negative effect that the OP is right about.

 

It turns single player burst damage into group-wide damage. This is much easier to heal through, especially considering each of those players also has access to DCDs that can mitigate the incoming damage further, one after another.

 

As an example, lets say dps A, B and C all have 100,000 health, just for easy comparison.

 

The three dps on the opposite team inflict 30,000 damage each to player A.

 

Normally, before using any DCD (or tacticals, which I surmise probably plays a much larger role in this) player A would take 90,000 damage, requiring significant healing to avoid dying.

 

With guard, however, he only takes 45,000, not even half his health.

 

Player B is guarding, so he takes 45,000, also above half health.

 

What happens next I'm not sure about, because I've never had a tri-guard situation before. I'm not sure whether player B will send 50% of damage to player C or not. If this is the case, then B and C are both at over 75% health, barely a scratch. With a single AoE heal, everybody is virtually at full again, with the healer spending far less energy and everybody happy.

 

On the other hand, because the opposite team has no guard, Player E is sitting at 10% heal and the healer is using up all the energy possible to try to keep the person alive. The player can't focus on dpsing because they're also attempting to stay alive.

 

Over time, it's obvious which team will run out of energy first and output less dps. Of course, this is purely theoretical, because player skill also has an effect. However, a team with three guards would have to work much less for a win in equal situations. This isn't even discussing the idea of stealthing, healing to full via certain tacticals, etc., etc.

Edited February 14, 2020 by sharkfishman

[sharkfishman]

I'll only add one thing please stop nerfing stuff for PvP while destroying the PvE in the process, vastly more customers pve.. Its not hyperbole, its fact.

 

Every time the devs ruin pve a little more customers get tired and leave.

 

This is absolutely true as well.

 

If they can't balance PVP and PVE separately, they shouldn't have taken on something like set bonuses and tacticals.

 

It's absurd the amount of times PVP affects PVE and vice-versa.

[robertthebard]

You're right, but guard does have a negative effect that the OP is right about.

 

It turns single player burst damage into group-wide damage. This is much easier to heal through, especially considering each of those players also has access to DCDs that can mitigate the incoming damage further, one after another.

 

As an example, lets say dps A, B and C all have 100,000 health, just for easy comparison.

 

The three dps on the opposite team inflict 30,000 damage each to player A.

 

Normally, before using any DCD (or tacticals, which I surmise probably plays a much larger role in this) player A would take 90,000 damage, requiring significant healing to avoid dying.

 

With guard, however, he only takes 45,000, not even half his health.

 

Player B is guarding, so he takes 45,000, also above half health.

 

What happens next I'm not sure about, because I've never had a tri-guard situation before. I'm not sure whether player B will send 50% of damage to player C or not. If this is the case, then B and C are both at over 75% health, barely a scratch. With a single AoE heal, everybody is virtually at full again, with the healer spending far less energy and everybody happy.

 

On the other hand, because the opposite team has no guard, Player E is sitting at 10% heal and the healer is using up all the energy possible to try to keep the person alive. The player can't focus on dpsing because they're also attempting to stay alive.

 

Over time, it's obvious which team will run out of energy first and output less dps. Of course, this is purely theoretical, because player skill also has an effect. However, a team with three guards would have to work much less for a win in equal situations. This isn't even discussing the idea of stealthing, healing to full via certain tacticals, etc., etc.

 

The issue I have is people seeing this as an issue. It is literally players using class skills to win at PvP. It's PvP, not baseball or soccer. The rules are "don't use third party software or exploits and win. Since class skills are not exploits, this isn't an issue. To your final point here, it's a war of attrition every time a PvP match starts, and the winner will always be the one that's better at resource management/strategizing. Sounds like a premade going against a pug, and some level of organization is to be expected.

[Nemmar]

As a tank main, I'm honestly fine if they take dps guard away, whatever.

 

That said, dps specs do not have the survivability of tank specs. As someone who does it, offguarding as say vigi is much riskier than guarding as a tank.

 

And now, that said, if losing guard meant my dps guardian could get some form of antifocus tool instead of something that attracts attention, I'd take the trade.

 

PPS: the real thing dps can do equally to tanks, with absolutely zero repercussions to themselves, is taunt. Guard has a repercussion: the 50% extra damage isn't lost: it goes to the person guarding. What's the downside to a dps taunting on CD?

 

This is a very good point and if the damage reduction component was removed from dps tanks would be more valuable in pvp.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Nemmar

[sharkfishman]

The issue I have is people seeing this as an issue. It is literally players using class skills to win at PvP. It's PvP, not baseball or soccer. The rules are "don't use third party software or exploits and win. Since class skills are not exploits, this isn't an issue. To your final point here, it's a war of attrition every time a PvP match starts, and the winner will always be the one that's better at resource management/strategizing. Sounds like a premade going against a pug, and some level of organization is to be expected.

 

I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

 

Healers were overpowered by far in ... 4.0? They were also just "using class skills."

 

The game is constantly evolving, and these changes can obviously cause some situations that were negligible before to have a much stronger effect.

 

This isn't about premade vs. pug, unless we're not talking about ranked, which I assumed from the 4 person layout.

They should all be pugs.

 

It's about only certain classes having a specific ability which may have become too strong in the current meta.

[robertthebard]

I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

 

Healers were overpowered by far in ... 4.0? They were also just "using class skills."

 

The game is constantly evolving, and these changes can obviously cause some situations that were negligible before to have a much stronger effect.

 

This isn't about premade vs. pug, unless we're not talking about ranked, which I assumed from the 4 person layout.

They should all be pugs.

 

It's about only certain classes having a specific ability which may have become too strong in the current meta.

 

OP according to whom? Oh yes, the PvP community. Yeah, I miss my "OP" HoT on a bubble on the tank in Operations because it was "OP" in PvP. I miss a lot of things from PvE due to PvP. At what point is it time for players to learn to play? I've never set foot in a WZ here, and have no intention of ever doing so, but I know exactly how it goes because my former guild leader was an avid PvPer, and allergic to push to talk in Discord. I've spent hours laughing my *** off at "don't they understand what focus fire means" or complaining about this or the other objective not being taken care of while 4 soloists run around in a party.

 

In games where I did PvP, we had a formula: cloth, leather, chain and plate. Seems to me if the healer's able to manage their resources so well that guarding works, nobody's attacking the healer. Healing on my Chanter in Aion was a breeze, when nobody was trying to kill me. My Jugg and Guardian are both tanks, and I would prefer that they just left it alone, because in the past, the "solution" was to break classes. I'm happy with where mine are, for now, and would prefer that players actually devise counters to strategies that doesn't include "Nerf everyone but me".

[Lydia-Ty-Goor]

After you buffed advanced prototype powertech dps all i see is pts,sins,juggernauts are guarding each other while their healers easily offheal them... they don't time even if my team makes great swaps on them because 50% guard on each other makes it easier for a healer to heal them all up. All they need to do is drop guard when they are focused and start guarding if they are not focused. This is ridiculous, i wondered why i don't see tanks anymore in pvp anymore and now i see why - dps can do their role easily. Why dps sorcs, operatives and mercs can heal only 1/5 of what a heal spec can do whilst dps classes with guard can guard on all 50% same as tanks??Thats literally not fair and causes big imbalance. Heal games are decided by fact if your team has two guarding dps or no. IF no - lose.

 

Guard from dps must be like 15% only and have some kind of cd to prevent it from being spammed

 

What - are you kidding me ....

This isn't imbalance ... this is intelligence tactic gameplay !

What do you want ? An every time win rate ? ...

Sometimes you win and sometime you loose.

Think about your spec and class ability.

And learn how to team play - what can i do to help my mate so it help me ....

[KendraP]

Again, I repeat: I am personally totally fine if they remove dps guard.

 

I also don't think it will solve your problems. Literally all you have to do is continue focusing the guarding or guarded player - as a dps they do not have the tools to mitigate the extra damage and will be forced to do one of a few things: remove the guard, waste DCDs on taking guard damage, stealth out (for sins), or simply die. The solution to guard is dps.

 

Which is why my point about taunts. It's a damage reduction tool, that can be used by dps specs of tank capable classes, has an identical effect for tanks and non tanks, and the only potential negative effect to the user is if the opponent notices and attempts to focus you. As a dps guardian, I do far more protection via taunting than guard.

 

Dps guard is incredibly situational - my best example of its use is a huttball match with an idiot sage that wouldnt pass. I guardian lept to him, threw guard on him, aoe taunted, and because of the like 5 people on him, I died, but he managed to score so we won. The entire thing wouldve been much simplier if the guy wouldve just passed to me across the fire pit, wide open with no enemies around. Instead I got pestered with "oh dps guard op" because some idiot couldn't play the objective properly, so I sacrificed myself for the win in a close match.

 

This tactic would be next to useless in an arena. You dying to keep someone else alive 5s longer in an arena benefits no one, as the entire point is to survive as long as possible.

 

My big question is: why the complaint about guard, which doesnt in fact reduce damage output AND has a negative effect on the user, that IS amplified as a non-tank spec, but no complaints about taunts, which DOES reduce damage output, has NO negative effect on the user, and works identically for tanks and dps specs. Playing vigi, I have done top protection doing nothing except taunting on CD.

 

But again I conclude by saying: I have zero problems with removing guard from DPS specs, or even nerfing taunts from dps specs, as I main a tank and get sick of being told I'm useless. I also dont think actual tanks are useless because of what I mentioned, along with some other things. I think the problems people have with dps guard in particular are symptomatic of the average player in this game being unaware of which end of the lightsaber goes where.

 

TLDR: Guard does not reduce damage output, has a negative impact to the user that is more difficult to deal with as a dps spec than a tank. Taunting reduces damage output, works identically as a dps spec and tank, and has no consequences to the user. Why the complaint about guard and not taunt?

[LD_Little_Dragon]

TLDR: Guard does not reduce damage output, has a negative impact to the user that is more difficult to deal with as a dps spec than a tank. Taunting reduces damage output, works identically as a dps spec and tank, and has no consequences to the user. Why the complaint about guard and not taunt?

 

Going by the high percentage of dps with taunt that end up with zero protection numbers in regs my guess is a lot of players just assume any dps with protection numbers is getting them from using guard.

 

Although be careful about making the value of taunt known. With Bioware's track record they'll end up removing taunt from dps specs, and that would really mess with pve.

[Floplag]

PvP will always have those players that will play whatever the FOTM classes are. It goes with the territory.

Complaining about it the gaming equivalent of the old man yelling at clouds.

Take solace in the fact that this is what they have to do to beat you, and go about your business.

[sharkfishman]

OP according to whom? Oh yes, the PvP community. Yeah, I miss my "OP" HoT on a bubble on the tank in Operations because it was "OP" in PvP. I miss a lot of things from PvE due to PvP. At what point is it time for players to learn to play? I've never set foot in a WZ here, and have no intention of ever doing so, but I know exactly how it goes because my former guild leader was an avid PvPer, and allergic to push to talk in Discord. I've spent hours laughing my *** off at "don't they understand what focus fire means" or complaining about this or the other objective not being taken care of while 4 soloists run around in a party.

 

In games where I did PvP, we had a formula: cloth, leather, chain and plate. Seems to me if the healer's able to manage their resources so well that guarding works, nobody's attacking the healer. Healing on my Chanter in Aion was a breeze, when nobody was trying to kill me. My Jugg and Guardian are both tanks, and I would prefer that they just left it alone, because in the past, the "solution" was to break classes. I'm happy with where mine are, for now, and would prefer that players actually devise counters to strategies that doesn't include "Nerf everyone but me".

 

Sorry, but l2p doesn't apply when something is actually broken.

 

Healing in PVP was broken during 4.0. There is no question about it.

 

The inability of the devs to separate PVP and PVE changes doesn't mean the players need to learn how to counter an entire team of sorcs that are suddenly unkillable.

 

Sometimes balance changes are necessary, that's the simple fact of life when new abilities are introduced to the game.

[robertthebard]

Sorry, but l2p doesn't apply when something is actually broken.

 

Healing in PVP was broken during 4.0. There is no question about it.

 

The inability of the devs to separate PVP and PVE changes doesn't mean the players need to learn how to counter an entire team of sorcs that are suddenly unkillable.

 

Sometimes balance changes are necessary, that's the simple fact of life when new abilities are introduced to the game.

 

Sorry, it hasn't been broken for years, but now it suddenly is, because someone thinks that that's how they lost in PvP? That's purely a L2P issue.

[sharkfishman]

Sorry, it hasn't been broken for years, but now it suddenly is, because someone thinks that that's how they lost in PvP? That's purely a L2P issue.

 

Now it suddenly is (as in 3.0? 4.0?) because the devs made changes to how the class abilities worked. These changes, when not correctly balanced, lead to issues.

 

Or, let me see if I understand what you're saying... the devs should simply invent numbers for everything out of thin air, and no matter what the values are, players should simply adapt? If new abilities are too weak or too powerful, we should just all either dump those abilities or switch to a different class?

Edited February 14, 2020 by sharkfishman

[sharkfishman]

Sorry, it hasn't been broken for years, but now it suddenly is, because someone thinks that that's how they lost in PvP? That's purely a L2P issue.

 

NVM, I'm noticing that you haven't been around long enough to have experienced what I'm describing, and don't seem have PVPed close to that era either, so it's not worth trying to convince you.

[KendraP]

I think you two are talking about different things: Dps with guard vs tanks with guard.

 

My perspective comes from playing both. If giving up guard as a utility meant I could get an actual antifocus then, yes go for it. On the other hand, without guard my tank has zero it can do that a dps really can't.

 

Leave guard alone for tanks. I really couldn't care what you do with it on dps. I dont really see it as a huge issue, but if my dps can get an actual toolkit in exchange for an incredibly situational, usually good way to die faster ability I'll take the trade. And by the way, I still say most of your issue comes from taunts or low dps. You can literally melt a dps PT or juggie, and force a sin to stealth out.

[robertthebard]

NVM, I'm noticing that you haven't been around long enough to have experienced what I'm describing, and don't seem have PVPed close to that era either, so it's not worth trying to convince you.

 

Yeah, I haven 't been around long enough to realize that players using their skills to win PvP isn't a bad thing. It's not like I've had more than a decade of experience watching this exact thing go down all over the industry either. "Nerf Rock, Paper is fine as it is, Scissors" is a meme for a reason, and that's exactly what we have here.

 

"But they can do something I can't, or can't figure out how to deal with, so the devs must nuke it from orbit". Just like with Orbital Tickle, er, I mean Orbital Strike, that "wasn't nerfed for WZs" despite not touching the Heroic Moment version. Speaks volumes, all those years ago, about the overall quality of the PvP in swtor, doesn't it? So no, you're not going to convince me that classes using skills in PvP is a bad thing, because that's what it's supposed to be. This game isn't solely built for PvP, so any changes made can, and likely will adversely affect PvE, see "Orbital Tickle". All because "but I may have to actually think about how to win"...

[sharkfishman]

I think you two are talking about different things: Dps with guard vs tanks with guard.

 

My perspective comes from playing both. If giving up guard as a utility meant I could get an actual antifocus then, yes go for it. On the other hand, without guard my tank has zero it can do that a dps really can't.

 

Leave guard alone for tanks. I really couldn't care what you do with it on dps. I dont really see it as a huge issue, but if my dps can get an actual toolkit in exchange for an incredibly situational, usually good way to die faster ability I'll take the trade. And by the way, I still say most of your issue comes from taunts or low dps. You can literally melt a dps PT or juggie, and force a sin to stealth out.

 

No, of course tanks require guard, it's part of what being a tank is all about.

 

I'm not even saying that dps need to have guard completely removed or taunt removed, just that it's possible that the recent meta of introducing tacticals may have had too much of an effect. It's something to keep an eye on.

 

The individual I'm speaking with simply refuses to accept that it's physically possible for any ability or any character power to be too strong, or too weak, or a bad idea, which is quite frankly ludicrous to me. That would imply that the devs never make mistakes or release abilities that have unintended consequences, which I think we've seen is totally false.

 

However, I do agree with him on the fact that the devs need to separate PVP changes and PVE changes.