I got hit by an Assassin so hard it uninstalled the game

[Fellow-Canadian]

Ok so I looked at your video and it appears that you literally did what I said was the counter play. You spam rocket out after his spike and his discharge, you go flying back and you can even see the moment he uses electrocute and you resist it from Rocket out.

 

From that point onward, you Rocket Out again further into their team and are now being attacked by not just the Assassin, but more players on the enemy team.

 

____________________

 

So in this example, the sin opens, you Rocket out and resist his 2nd hard stun, and you do NOT take a boat load of damage from the Sin only. You've shown video evidence that there is counterplay to the opener, where you don't take a bucket load of damage because you use a DCD to escape the 2nd hard stun (electrocute). So what is the issue here?

 

The alternative is that you choose to do nothing, sit through the incoming Electrocute instead of using a DCD, and then taking a boat load of damage *as you should* because you chose not to use a DCD. This was a situation gone correctly, and this situation can be replicated 100% of the time. I guess I'm confused what you want nerfed then?

 

The point I've been trying to make is when it lands it's way too strong. If I don't play perfectly or maybe that one cooldown isn't up then I'm dead. I don't fear any other class in 6.0 except an assassin in the current meta. They are tearing people up as nobody else can. If you want to go back to some of the other points I've raised, I could help to clarify any confusion.

 

I agree with the point made earlier, that stealth classes have way more gear than others and it's likely a significant contributing factor this early in the expansion. I do see other classes at that equivalent gear level and they're not nearly as scary as Assassins are.

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

delete10char Edited June 1, 2022 by Mycroft-Tarkin

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Applies to every other class. I can melt you with my Sage (the so-called "weakest" dps) in a few seconds if you don't have dcds up.

 

Pretty much this. So we should be nerfing classes that have clear counterplay as was shown in OP's video because sometimes people don't use abilities at the right time?

 

[SlimeyDoom]

Do you not see your own logical fallacy or are you purposefully trolling? I can't tell. Let me spell it out for you and how my comment on Sniper isn't whataboutism but is instead, directly related.

 

This is a quote from the OP.

 

From this quote, I made the comment that Snipers can hit 100k. The purpose of this comment is to show that despite a class being able to hit hard, there are obviously other factors that come into play on whether something is balanced or not. You don't just balance based on can they do alot of damage. That would be idiotic and if that were the case, Powertech would be nerfed because they do a ton of damage. FROM HERE, THE GOAL POST IS MOVED TO THE FOLLOWING:

 

 

 

 

 

So to counter this point, I provide a way to NOT get stunlocked by making it so that you can react after stun #1 and before stun #2. That should alleviate the issue of taking Insane burst while being stunlocked right? Because then you're just taking insane burst, but NOT being stunned while taking it, meaning you can pop DCDs. I mean, OP literally says himself, if you give up the stun lock combo, it's not that bad, so by proving that you can, in fact, disrupt the stun lock combo, things shouldn't be that bad anymore, by OP's standards, right?

 

But no, then the Goal post moves EVEN FURTHER:

 

 

 

So now the issue is no longer 1 single sin doing his singular Opener, it's now that there are multiple players screwing 1 single player. So now this is somehow only relegated to assassin's doing it, but if I mention that snipers can also do this by going as multiple snipers and using INSTA CAST AMBUSH FOR 100K, WHICH HAS NO COUNTER PLAY, that's suddenly whataboutism and it's fine for Sniper to be able to do this because we need to nerf Assassin. My argument was not, "but what about snipers, wahhh!" my argument was "contextually speaking, all classes are capable of doing something insane, here's an example of snipers doing it, yet at the same time, they are *still considered balanced*" Somehow you missed my context to purely twist my words though, something I'm used to the masses doing these days since outrage media is all the rage today.

 

But it gets better Now the goal posts is no longer even in the endzone, it's all the way in the pacific Ocean:

 

 

 

So i counter with a post showing EVERY TACTICAL A SIN USES and showing how NONE OF THEM increase Opener burst damage, meaning this user has clearly just made stuff up for the hell of it, to get Sins nerfed.

 

And after using logic to counter all of these idiotic points, you're still trying to twist my words around to make it look like I'm defending an OP spec.

 

So here, quote me on this: Devs, please nerf Sins and Shadows. I don't care if you nerf them into the ground since I will continue to play them, just as I have when they've been nerfed in the past for multiple expansions. But before you do, please look into the credibility of all of these complaints first, since half of the arguments against sins are literal lies and disinformation. Thanks.

 

I am not the OP. Please stop equating my claims with the OP's weird tendency to change what he's arguing about constantly. I, along with several other people, have said that deception has too much burst damage. We aren't talking about stun locks or openers or anything. Nor have we altered the conclusion that deception has too much burst damage.

 

I get that the OP has a weird way of arguing, but that doesn't automatically invalidate every single person who disagrees with you.

[jedcjedcjedc]

snipped for length

sorry, don't try to pull me into your explanation by twisting things. you are comparing different responses from different people and acting as if they are all the same person. no one is moving goal posts. different people naturally have different opinions. I was and am not saying that sins are only doing too much damage when they are in squads. the reverse actually, people are grouping up in squads of them because of their damage. you don't need a midfight when your early fight 100-0's.

 

Secondly, if snipers are doing the same or similar things, then yes, 100k+ would also fall under this catagory. doing almost 30% to a third or more of someones health in a single hit, and especially being able to do multiples of these hits is stupidly good. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Lastly, no one with half a mind is saying just flat out nerf everything to the ground. If something is too strong you bring it down. If something is too weak you bring it up. That's what balance is all about. If BW has a hard time doing that, that's on them not the players asking for balance

Edited November 2, 2019 by jedcjedcjedc

[sharkfishman]

Tacticals do not directly affect how *hard* sin hits. My video demonstrates how to gain extra utility from swapping tacticals. Utility does not equal more damage.

 

Two Cloaks: This isn't used in the opener at all.

 

Life Warden: How is this used to hit harder?

 

Friend of the Force: Once again, how does this make sin hit harder?

 

Blade of the Elements: Reaping strike isn't used in the opener because it doesn't hit as hard as maul

 

Awakened flame: This is the only one that can be applied to the opener, yet you wouldn't start with this anyway, you start combat with Two Cloaks active.

 

________________________________

 

Explain to me again how tacticals affect the sin's opening damage?

 

You say "are you saying a 2nd sin can't apply a stun in that window?" This means you are 1v2 now, right? So now the issue is 1v2 instead of a singular assassin's opener dps? Could you not say the same about being 1v2 vs ANY class? Since all classes can stun lock you with 2 players vs 1?

 

I like how we keep moving the goal post further and further from the original point of the OP, which was ONE assassin doing burst damage from their OPENER only, not from sustained damage/etc.

 

Keep on moving those goal posts, I'm sure it will get sin nerfed eventually if we move them far enough

 

I apologize. I was referring to the effects of the death knell set bonuses, which is what impacts how hard maul hits for. I was using the term tactical broadly to talk about the effects that have been introduced since 6.0. For example, I have no idea whether it's a set bonus or a tactical that allows operatives to have 6 rolls in a row. However, the end result is there.

 

When you combine this 30% melee damage with the effects of an increased amount of first 10 seconds of damage from amps (which resets every time you exit combat using shroud) it obviously results in an excessive amount of damage.

 

These are, quite frankly, issues that should've been detected on PTS and corrected. However, the short amount of time this portion of the update was on PTS leads me to believe the devs could honestly care less about PVP balance at this point.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

I apologize. I was referring to the effects of the death knell set bonuses, which is what impacts how hard maul hits for. I was using the term tactical broadly to talk about the effects that have been introduced since 6.0. For example, I have no idea whether it's a set bonus or a tactical that allows operatives to have 6 rolls in a row. However, the end result is there.

 

When you combine this 30% melee damage with the effects of an increased amount of first 10 seconds of damage from amps (which resets every time you exit combat using shroud) it obviously results in an excessive amount of damage.

 

These are, quite frankly, issues that should've been detected on PTS and corrected. However, the short amount of time this portion of the update was on PTS leads me to believe the devs could honestly care less about PVP balance at this point.

 

Ok that makes more sense.

 

That being said, you can find multiple quotes from me if you look hard enough where I state that the damage of Maul spam was too high and could be toned down. I never disagreed with that before, and I will not disagree with it now.

 

I will however defend my class when people are spreading false information and being dishonest about the true balance of the class. It's like they forget that there is more to the class than it's opener. It's sustained damage is extremely mediocre and low, it's defensive capabilities are not even close to stellar compared to the other Melee DPS classes (Yes, you can make this comparison of melee dps defensives because it is a sub-topic of how balance is calculated) and the other spec, Hatred, is perfectly fine offensively for sustained damage but has even worse defensive capabilities than a Sorc while being a melee class.

 

So yea, I'm going to defend my class from Improper nerfs because people are targetting the wrong thing and responding to some of these knee-jerk reactions to 1 portion of a complex class is the exact way to get something nerfed into oblivion incorrectly.

[Fellow-Canadian]

You know K'rea, I did make one suggestion that would affect the opener but NOT the damage. I haven't asked for a nerf to make them uncompetitive. If you read what I actually said I was very specific.

 

Have you stopped to consider once, that maybe I'm not wrong? That insane burst in a double stun opener from stealth is actually really good. Your whole shtick has been anyone who disagrees with you must be bad at this game. I mean, you can dress it up as a chance to educate , but once you established I actually had a clue on PVP, you just move on. I guess if all you do is discredit a person you don't actually have to contend with the arguments they're making.

[UltraFlashStar]

I’m starting to agree with Fellow-Canadian on this after watching his video. I understand people to get sins nerf especially after their debatable state in 5.0. I felt the same way after Scoundrel was nerfed in 1.0 and the removal of Shoot First in 3.0 (also RIP Flechette Shot animation). Despite obvious bias for Scoundrel on my part, the nerf was needed.

 

It seems reasonable that he’s asking for sins not to obliterate more than half your health in a few GCDs without skill and in return you half to play perfectly to avoid it. If we’re seriously arguing on this then I feel like 6.0 is going to be the age of power creeps.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

You know K'rea, I did make one suggestion that would affect the opener but NOT the damage. I haven't asked for a nerf to make them uncompetitive. If you read what I actually said I was very specific.

 

Have you stopped to consider once, that maybe I'm not wrong? That insane burst in a double stun opener from stealth is actually really good. Your whole shtick has been anyone who disagrees with you must be bad at this game. I mean, you can dress it up as a chance to educate , but once you established I actually had a clue on PVP, you just move on. I guess if all you do is discredit a person you don't actually have to contend with the arguments they're making.

 

Nah, I have never once stated that anyone who disagrees must be bad at the game. That would be disingenuous to the argument, you don't have to be good at the game to make criticisms on something. My entire point has been that some people are arguing for things by using extreme exaggerations to get their point across, making things seem much worse than they are.

 

Let's take your point, for example. You start off by stating that the issue is that Sins can stunlock with Spike and Electrocute, while also doing massive damage during this stun lock. I counter this point by offering ways to completely disrupt a sin's opener, which prevents the stun lock, which prevents the issue that you state you have in the first place (the entire premise of your thread is that sins do too much damage while also being able to control their target to ensure their damage connects, is it not?) You then try to I assume discredit my argument by showing footage of you doing exactly what I say needs to be done to disrupt the sin opener and prevent you from taking a massive amount of damage while being controlled. So yes, I drop the argument because now I'm purely confused.

 

I'm confused because you start with this premise: Sins do too much damage while simultaneously controlling their targets. Nerf spike to be a slow and that will fix this issue.

 

I counter your premise with: Actually, sins cannot put out immense burst while simultaneously controlling their target if the target decides to play the game and use DCDs to stop the assassin's advances. Here's how you stop this opener.

 

You then post a video that shows my premise in action, displaying yourself using Rocket out and then avoiding the entire Sin opener.

 

I then stop pursuing this thread because you've contradicted yourself by posting evidence that proves that: Assassin's, in fact, can have their opener dismantled, preventing them from getting in a load of damage and forcing them to either attempt to run away to drop combat, or burn a Force Cloak, which is a valuable cooldown.

 

And then you have the audacity to state that "I'm merely stating that anyone who disagrees is wrong and a bad player" when you fail to see the hypocrisy in all of your statements. So yea, I'm pretty frazzled, because your entire thread makes no sense when you start the thread saying "Sins have can stun lock you and push insane damage" then halfway through, you post evidence that literally shows "Sins can't stun lock you if you press buttons".

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

It seems reasonable that he’s asking for sins not to obliterate more than half your health in a few GCDs without skill and in return you half to play perfectly to avoid it.

 

It seems reasonable to you that he is asking for a class to be nerfed so that you can play suboptimally against them and still succeed instead of having to play properly against them? Seriously?

[Fellow-Canadian]

While you were not explicitly saying I don't know how to play the insinuation is there.

[DzastinBiberi]

Ppl crying about sins hitting hard, wait until you go against MM Sniper with phase walk and insta ambushes that deal 80k hits.

 

Sins can be countered if u know how they work. I played my Hatred sin yesterday and was focused more than my snip friend, who did 11k dps in AH. I also had some solo kills vs other sins and vs merc on Hatred.

 

And then there were operatives, good ones I couldnt beat at all, although, Hatred isnt a burst spec, still, it was insane how some operatives resisted like half of my dmg with rolls etc.

 

Dont need to mention 60k hits, self healing etc. I bet, ppl complaining about sins, have been maining mercs for the past 3 years. Well, get fkd. ^^

[JediMasterAlex]

It seems reasonable to you that he is asking for a class to be nerfed so that you can play suboptimally against them and still succeed instead of having to play properly against them? Seriously?

 

I have no current position on whether sin damage is too powerful. I'll need to see it in more arenas first. I've already been clear that I think tactical swapping mid-match should be disallowed by Bioware, because it's an inherent and unfair advantage for stealth classes.

 

But I'm surprised you can't recognize how bad this argument is. Just because there is a counter for something doesn't mean that it isn't too strong. It's the exact same argument people made about merc dcds. "Oh, you can work around them." Yes, everything in this game can be worked around, but some things are much harder to work around than others.

 

When you make this argument, "just counter them properly and it's fine," you seem to imply that this game is perfectly balanced as is. Because everything can be countered. It's clearly an absurd position.

Edited November 3, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Josewales]

Last night was my first go in regs as a 306 carnage Mara. Topped the boards a few times as a single target dps. Bumped into a few sins/shadows. Sure the initial burst eats through half your hp within a few seconds, but after that with my def CD I was able to tear them apart before they go on the defence themself. At first I mashed while spiked to lessen the electrocute and mauls. But found I really didn’t need to. Pop a stim and go to town with sustainable damage and strafing. I saw lot of 60k hits from sins and the odd 80k. Seems a lot but after that it felt like tickles. I kind of agree with Krea on her argument regarding solo.

 

Now here’s where I see the nerf cries transitioning over to...Slingers and snipers. Soon as more learn how to play them with all their tricks. They are a pain in the butt I noticed. Their defence and 6.0 long fights allows them to sit there and pew pew longer without hightail or poof.

 

I mained all three throughout the years. Slingers/snipers I see becoming fotm soon for those with a quick mind and quick buttons.

 

Anyways...I know we all don’t like our class nerfed due to mob rule and always like an advantage, but Sins/Shadiws imo are not as scary as many are claiming. I could be wrong since this is my first impression.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

I have no current position on whether sin damage is too powerful. I'll need to see it in more arenas first. I've already been clear that I think tactical swapping mid-match should be disallowed by Bioware, because it's an inherent and unfair advantage for stealth classes.

 

But I'm surprised you can't recognize how bad this argument is. Just because there is a counter for something doesn't mean that it isn't too strong. It's the exact same argument people made about merc dcds. "Oh, you can work around them." Yes, everything in this game can be worked around, but some things are much harder to work around than others.

 

When you make this argument, "just counter them properly and it's fine," you seem to imply that this game is perfectly balanced as is. Because everything can be countered. It's clearly an absurd position.

 

You know, I wrote out like 5 paragraphs responding to this, but then I realized, it actually doesn't matter what I type at all or what evidence I provide to show that this isn't the same as a merc having too many DCDs or an ability doing too much damage, you all will always have the same opinions no matter what evidence you see.

 

So with that, I'll just leave ya'll to it. You're right, I make a bad argument. And OP is right, sin is too strong right now, go ahead and nerf spike and turn it into a slow. And others are also correct, nerf tacticals so they can't be swapped. Also tone down Maul's damage.

 

Have a good day.

[JediMasterAlex]

You know, I wrote out like 5 paragraphs responding to this, but then I realized, it actually doesn't matter what I type at all or what evidence I provide to show that this isn't the same as a merc having too many DCDs or an ability doing too much damage, you all will always have the same opinions no matter what evidence you see.

 

It's not my fault you have poor reasoning skills. You've displayed that several times in this thread. Pretending that you have an argument that you won't post is one of the more pathetic things I've seen on these forums to be honest.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

It's not my fault you have poor reasoning skills. You've displayed that several times in this thread. Pretending that you have an argument that you won't post is one of the more pathetic things I've seen on these forums to be honest.

 

You're right.

[JediMasterAlex]

You're right.

 

I'm not sure this kind of petulance does you any favors either lol.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

I'm not sure this kind of petulance does you any favors either lol.

 

Okay.

[Josewales]

It's not my fault you have poor reasoning skills. You've displayed that several times in this thread. Pretending that you have an argument that you won't post is one of the more pathetic things I've seen on these forums to be honest.

 

Why so toxic? At least Krea goes through the effort to save others time. Disagree or not. Respect bro.

[JediMasterAlex]

Why so toxic? At least Krea goes through the effort to save others time. Disagree or not. Respect bro.

 

His guide is good. His reasoning skills defending his positions in this thread have been poor.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

His guide is good. His reasoning skills defending his positions in this thread have been poor.

 

I can't help myself, give me some more abuse. How is my reasoning poor?

 

You state

But I'm surprised you can't recognize how bad this argument is. Just because there is a counter for something doesn't mean that it isn't too strong.

 

OP's premise is that the opener is too strong because you are able to stun lock a target (CC them for 6 uninterurptable seconds) and then use 4 GCDS to burst them. I want to define what a stun lock is here, so that we are all on the same page. OP's solution to fix this issue is to nerf Spike so that it doesn't stun. Nerfing spike would no longer allow Assassins to control a target for 6 seconds straight in a stun lock, giving the target time to react after they are opened on, and then use a Defensive Cooldown.

 

Are we all on the same page regarding the premise of the OP? Yes? No?

 

If yes, let's continue.

 

If the premise that I'm supposed to be disputing is "Assassin's can stun lock and burst with no counter play" and I provide information showing that "Actually, this isn't true, you can prevent the entire stun lock, rendering your argument false" Please explain my how my reasoning is poor.

 

Disregard the comment about how I have poor reasoning on whether or not something constitutes a nerf, please attack the previous statements that I have made and show me how they are poor leaps in logic, I'd love to hear how to become better at supporting my statements.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[JediMasterAlex]

I can't help myself, give me some more abuse. How is my reasoning poor?

 

You state

 

OP's premise is that the opener is too strong because you are able to stun lock a target (CC them for 6 uninterurptable seconds) and then use 4 GCDS to burst them. I want to define what a stun lock is here, so that we are all on the same page. OP's solution to fix this issue is to nerf Spike so that it doesn't stun. Nerfing spike would no longer allow Assassins to control a target for 6 seconds straight in a stun lock, giving the target time to react after they are opened on, and then use a Defensive Cooldown.

 

Are we all on the same page regarding the premise of the OP? Yes? No?

 

If yes, let's continue.

 

If the premise that I'm supposed to be disputing is "Assassin's can stun lock and burst with no counter play" and I provide information showing that "Actually, this isn't true, you can prevent the entire stun lock, rendering your argument false" Please explain my how my reasoning is poor.

 

Disregard the comment about how I have poor reasoning on whether or not something constitutes a nerf, please attack the previous statements that I have made and show me how they are poor leaps in logic, I'd love to hear how to become better at supporting my statements.

 

There's a fundamental problem, that I guess could be a form of misunderstanding between you and many of us in this thread. You are doggedly going back to the specific complaint in the OP. A lot of others in the thread have brought up points that are different from, though still related to, the OP's complaint.

 

So insofar as you've addressed the OP, it's fine. But in a forum thread, people are allowed to bring up other points. I don't think there needs to be a new thread for every nuance of a "sins are overpowered" discussion.

 

You are free to make arguments that sins aren't overpowered at all. And you might be right. But saying that sins are not OP because "well snipers hit harder" and "well, you can counter the opener" are not remotely adequate to do so.

 

Incidentally, I've never seen you offer an explanation for why you think it's balanced that only stealth classes can reliably swap tacticals mid-round.

Edited November 3, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

There's a fundamental problem, that I guess could be a form of misunderstanding between you and many of us in this thread. You are doggedly going back to the specific complaint in the OP. A lot of others in the thread have brought up points that are different from, though still related to, the OP's complaint.

 

So insofar as you've addressed the OP, it's fine. But in a forum thread, people are allowed to bring up other points. I don't think there needs to be a new thread for every nuance of a "sins are overpowered" discussion.

 

So my reasoning skills defending my specific position against the OP are poor because I didn't instead defend my position against others in the thread as well, is that what you're stating?

 

Edit:

 

But saying that sins are not OP because "well snipers hit harder" and "well, you can counter the opener" are not remotely adequate to do so.

 

So I'm not allowed to bring up other classes when considering balancing a class? I admit, instead of only bringing up snipers, I instead should have brought up everything that all classes can do to demonstrate what the ramifications are for adjusting Sin/Shadows. I'm more than happy to do that, actually, if you so inquire.

 

Incidentally, I've never seen you offer an explanation for why you think it's balanced that only stealth classes can reliably swap tacticals mid-round.

 

You've never seen me offer and explanation for it because I don't think it's balanced, show me a quote where I said it's balanced for Stealth to be able to do this and no one else, I'll wait.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Jinre_the_Jedi